United States of Europe...is it time?

otnomart

Mav11 wrote: »

Would have thought that it was the Dutch and Fins leading the way on the finger wagging. The Dutch finance minister was forced to apologise for some of his comments during the week.

Must say even as an ardent Europhile, I'm finding these hard to swallow.

The Dutch might realise soon the need to be recipients of solidarity, themselves.
More Companies going up the wall, less taxes for the State coffers.

"bankruptcies are skyrocketing. In the first week of April, almost 60 percent more companies were declared bankrupt than in the same period last year"
https://nltimes.nl/2020/04/09/70000-businesses-applied-govt-aid-bankruptcies-skyrocket

ArchXStanton

Humberto Salazar wrote: »

Same old federalist nonsense. Any US of Europe would be subject to Franco German hegemony. And we know that is simply unacceptable to most other members. The unfortunate treaties we voted on, are simply a confirmation of the French and German dominance. The EU needs reform from the top down.

They've been talking about reform for years with no sign of any, it's too bloated and convoluted for any meaningful reform, anyone interested in how we ended up from the EEC to the current mess should read "the great deception"

Kivaro

I see that our boss, Chancellor Angela Merkel, has rejected the notion of Euro bonds today. She said that she does not believe that we should have common debt in Europe, but she had no problem making unilateral decisions in the past that has caused a lot of debt and social strife in other European countries.

Speaking of Italy, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte said the EU’s existence would be under threat and could fail if countries do not work together to combat the pandemic and the corresponding economic consequences.

silverharp

Anyone in Deutsche Bank jumping out of windows these days? cant be doing well with asset markets all over the place

Danzy

No, the idea of a United States of Europe is over after Covid19.

Or more the complete lack of solidarity, acceptance that there is a behemoth of an economic crisis coming,

Northern Europe made clear closer integration is a non runner.

Danzy

Kivaro wrote: »

I see that our boss, Chancellor Angela Merkel, has rejected the notion of Euro bonds today. She said that she does not believe that we should have common debt in Europe, but she had no problem making unilateral decisions in the past that has caused a lot of debt and social strife in other European countries.

Speaking of Italy, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte said the EU’s existence would be under threat and could fail if countries do not work together to combat the pandemic and the corresponding economic consequences.

CDU political needs at home beat European economic concerns.

Elemonator

biko wrote: »

Hell no Guy Verhofstadt, the EU experiment have failed.
I don't know about you guys but I like my politicians elected and accountable to their electorate.

I'd be pro EU, most of family are still around and would remember the desolate wasteland Ireland was before the EEC. Makes for grim thoughts. With an evermore unfriendly US on one side, our closest neighbour and historical enemy on the other, as well as economic powerhouses present and future in Russia, China and India, it may not hurt to be a member of a big club. Surely has its faults that need to rectified pronto but the pro's far outweigh the cons imo.

I'm always seeing this comment that the EU is unelected...

EU Commission is composed of 28 members. Ireland has its own. Each is appointed every five years. The head of the EU Commission is decided by the Parliament in a voter majority. The president selects the 27 other Commissioners based on the recommendations of each member state. So you are the voter, you elect the 751 members of European Parliament, which are then responsible for voting for the president of the Commission. While you don't get a direct say in who is on the commission itself, you will have voted for politicians in M.E.P. Elections who in turn will have voted for the president.

EU Council's presidency which rotates between every member state every 6 months, with the states taking the presidency in the following two terms working with the current president to ensure that long term goals are accomplished. It's unelected, but everyone gets a turn.

Members of EU parliament are voted on by each member state, where members repesent "Europarties" like EPP which Fine Gael is a member of and the president is simply the party leader of the winning party.

So you may not directly vote in the various presidents of the various EU institutions but you do have a say. It's a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The final say on EU Law and policy comes from the Council of Ministers (which is made of up of members of national government and the elected European Parliament).

Open to correction, however.

Mav11

Elemonator wrote: »

I'd be pro EU, most of family are still around and would remember the desolate wasteland Ireland was before the EEC. Makes for grim thoughts. With an evermore unfriendly US on one side, our closest neighbour and historical enemy on the other, as well as economic powerhouses present and future in Russia, China and India, it may not hurt to be a member of a big club. Surely has its faults that need to rectified pronto but the pro's far outweigh the cons imo.

I'm always seeing this comment that the EU is unelected...

EU Commission is composed of 28 members. Ireland has its own. Each is appointed every five years. The head of the EU Commission is decided by the Parliament in a voter majority. The president selects the 27 other Commissioners based on the recommendations of each member state. So you are the voter, you elect the 751 members of European Parliament, which are then responsible for voting for the president of the Commission. While you don't get a direct say in who is on the commission itself, you will have voted for politicians in M.E.P. Elections who in turn will have voted for the president.

EU Council's presidency which rotates between every member state every 6 months, with the states taking the presidency in the following two terms working with the current president to ensure that long term goals are accomplished. It's unelected, but everyone gets a turn.

Members of EU parliament are voted on by each member state, where members repesent "Europarties" like EPP which Fine Gael is a member of and the president is simply the party leader of the winning party.

So you may not directly vote in the various presidents of the various EU institutions but you do have a say. It's a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The final say on EU Law and policy comes from the Council of Ministers (which is made of up of members of national government and the elected European Parliament).

Open to correction, however.

27 members now with the UK gone.

You've captured the democratic theory of the structures above, but in reality a lot of what gets decided in the EU is determined by the big boys and girls, such as Germany or France.

ArchXStanton

Mav11 wrote: »

27 members now with the UK gone.

You've captured the democratic theory of the structures above, but in reality a lot of what gets decided in the EU is determined by the big boys and girls, such as Germany or France.

Hotblack Desiato

Da, comrade.

Yurt2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The finger wagging by the Germans and their allies has already started.
Italy may be the catalyst to start the breakup. Italians were already wary of the EU due to the economic crash, the early days of this crisis in Italy demonstrated the lack of EU solidarity. The Russians and Chinese sending aid to Italy galvanised the EU into action but I suspect damage to the European project in Italy has already taken a firm hold.

The attitude of the governments of the self-declared 'prudent north' countries to Italy and Spain in the face of a national tragedy has been a disgrace.

I hope that Ireland is among an alliance of small and mid-size European nations (along with France) to give them a diplomatic clip around the ear to remind them of the sacrifices of the last decade that were made to keep the European project between the ditches.

Plumbthedepths

Listening to the news a moment ago the IMF is predicting this will be the worst financial shock since the Great Depression, listening to various voices in Europe they seem to believe it will be similar to the financial crash of the early 2000's. I know who I feel have greater credibility.

ArchXStanton

Kivaro wrote: »

I see that our boss, Chancellor Angela Merkel, has rejected the notion of Euro bonds today. She said that she does not believe that we should have common debt in Europe, but she had no problem making unilateral decisions in the past that has caused a lot of debt and social strife in other European countries.

Speaking of Italy, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte said the EU’s existence would be under threat and could fail if countries do not work together to combat the pandemic and the corresponding economic consequences.

Merkle was quick to criticise Poland/Hungary for a lack of "European values" over economic migrants(something she greatly contributed to) , yet it was Germany that was seizing and banning export of medical equipment to fellow member States, its all a bit of a fantasy to try push through this united States of Europe with a brand new, sparkly "European identity". All a bit too forced and fake

PyreOfHellfire

Spilled my milk this morning while making a cup of tea. I blame Merkel for this mess.

Thank God we are part of the EU. I can only imagine the disaster this country would become if we had the likes of Luke Ming Flanagan and Sinn Fein and their supporters on this thread handling our regulations, trade deals and financial solvency. We would be back to burning turf, using that horror current the "punt" and liquidating our state assets to build statues made of gold to Collins and the Catholic church for liberating us from them pesky brits. :pac:

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Thanks for that vote of confidence, Ursula.

Sorry comrade I have veered off course from the correct group think. I shall send myself to the gulag at once. Erin Go Brath, Chucky our law and all that noble nonsense.

Danzy

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Listening to the news a moment ago the IMF is predicting this will be the worst financial shock since the Great Depression, listening to various voices in Europe they seem to believe it will be similar to the financial crash of the early 2000's. I know who I feel have greater credibility.

Eurozone expected to contract 12 to 14% this year. Compared to a 4.5% contraction in 2009.

Looks like they are paralyzed by the scale of the crisis.

The will isn't there to fix this.

Kivaro

Danzy wrote: »

Eurozone expected to contract 12 to 14% this year. Compared to a 4.5% contraction in 2009.

Looks like they are paralyzed by the scale of the crisis.

The will isn't there to fix this.

As I mentioned before, the EU is now a bureaucratic behemoth with ever increasing powers. If they want to revert back to an economic union, then now is the perfect time to do this.

Jimbob1977

Every country in the world is going to experience a recession.

Our membership (or non-membership) of the European Union has no impact on this.

If businesses are closed down and jobs are mothballed for health reasons, the outcome is predictable.

One of the benefits of EU membership could be the access to a "recovery" or "stimulus" package at affordable rates.

If we were outside the tent, loans could become harder to negotiate.

_Kaiser_

Kivaro wrote: »

As I mentioned before, the EU is now a bureaucratic behemoth with ever increasing powers. If they want to revert back to an economic union, then now is the perfect time to do this.

The driving forces behind the EU "project" certainly don't want to roll things back (to preferably the EEC days), but growing discontent with the arrangement in the south and east may force their hands.

We could easily see countries in these regions breaking away over the life of this latest crisis and other looser alliances forming in the bloc as those in similar positions look out for their own interests.

Of course, here in Ireland, if the above scenario does happen I fully expect our politicians to stand by Brussels/Berlin until the last, no matter how much long term damage it does to us.

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

Spilled my milk this morning while making a cup of tea. I blame Merkel for this mess.

Thank God we are part of the EU. I can only imagine the disaster this country would become if we had the likes of Luke Ming Flanagan and Sinn Fein and their supporters on this thread handling our regulations, trade deals and financial solvency. We would be back to burning turf, using that horror current the "punt" and liquidating our state assets to build statues made of gold to Collins and the Catholic church for liberating us from them pesky brits. :pac:



Sorry comrade I have veered off course from the correct group think. I shall send myself to the gulag at once. Erin Go Brath, Chucky our law and all that noble nonsense.

You are completely off the mark there, mate. I despite SF / IRA and all things ‘left’.

But anyone claiming that the EU is doing a good job (or indeed anything) in the current crisis, or that european citizens want further integration is delusional.

Your ‘group think’ comment is interesting though. The actual ‘group think’ prevalent in the EU doesn’t allow any debate on illegal immigration for example, it is immediately shut down with accusations of racism.

So yeah, jog on Ursula.

Rodney Bathgate

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Every country in the world is going to experience a recession.

Our membership (or non-membership) of the European Union has no impact on this.

If businesses are closed down and jobs are mothballed for health reasons, the outcome is predictable.

One of the benefits of EU membership could be the access to a "recovery" or "stimulus" package at affordable rates.

If we were outside the tent, loans could become harder to negotiate.

Could be. If an agreement can be reached. Big if since the Italian PM has said he can’t sign up to the current proposal.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The driving forces behind the EU "project" certainly don't want to roll things back (to preferably the EEC days), but growing discontent with the arrangement in the south and east may force their hands.

We could easily see countries in these regions breaking away over the life of this latest crisis and other looser alliances forming in the bloc as those in similar positions look out for their own interests.

Of course, here in Ireland, if the above scenario does happen I fully expect our politicians to stand by Brussels/Berlin until the last, no matter how much long term damage it does to us.

What driving forces...im skeptical of the eu as a whole tbh

But seems to me,the ones stopping further integration and central assistance all week,were the dutch and germans ??

_Kaiser_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What driving forces...im skeptical of the eu as a whole tbh

But seems to me,the ones stopping further integration and central assistance all week,were the dutch and germans ??

Because when push comes to shove, the hypocrisy of the whole thing comes to the fore.

"We want a Federal Europe, but on OUR terms!"

When the gaping holes in the idea (independent countries with different economies, different cultures, different priorities, different ideas of acceptable) are exposed, suddenly the "solidarity" disappears.

And that's why the EU as a political union can NEVER really work.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because when push comes to shove, the hypocrisy of the whole thing comes to the fore.

"We want a Federal Europe, but on OUR terms!"

When the gaping holes in the idea (independent countries with different economies, different cultures, different priorities, different ideas of acceptable) are exposed, suddenly the "solidarity" disappears.

And that's why the EU as a political union can NEVER really work.

Tbh your claiming a driving force for federisation
.....but as far as i see,countries tradionally accused of wanting it.....effectively road-blocked moves to it during the week??


The eu is fcuked now anyway (hopefully),but your view (and previously mine) of some.countries pushing for closer and more integration deosnt stand upto scrutiny.......


when push come to shove,they jibbed it and have forever sunk a liberal capitalist wet-dream of a federal europe.....sometimes you have to change your view in face of evidence to contary,this week certainly changed mine

Plumbthedepths

I posted this on another thread but it is relevant here also.
We are all in this together till we are not. I will be surprised if the EU as we currently know it is still in existence at the turn of the next decade.



https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/europe/eu-bungled-coronavirus-response-analysis-intl/index.html