Airlines breaking EU law by not offering refunds

Sheep Shagger

Chivito550 wrote: »

Is there any time limit for insurance claims?

My policy was last paid in July 2019 so it runs up to July 2020.

My flight to Manila was supposed to be today.

Also, on a separate issue, I'm booked to fly to Tokyo later in the year for the Olympics, to work as a freelancer, which now are not going ahead til 2021. There's a good chance my BA flight could still go ahead though. What's my options in this situation? Is voucher the best thing I can hope for?

What a year to have 2 trips booked to the Far East.

Call your insurer to clarify but as you bought the flight and it was cancelled while you were insured you should still be able to claim after your policy lapses if required.

Chivito550

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Call your insurer to clarify but as you bought the flight and it was cancelled while you were insured you should still be able to claim after your policy lapses if required.

Tried calling them. They are not accepting phone inquiries at this time. No surprises there.

Sheep Shagger

Chivito550 wrote: »

Tried calling them. They are not accepting phone inquiries at this time. No surprises there.

Should be in the policy document probably available online too.

afro man

Sono Topolino wrote: »

Anyone asking for a refund is being a dick. I understand that you cannot travel and this isn’t your fault, but neither is it the airline’s fault and they shouldn’t have to go bust.

Take the voucher and be grateful.

Being a dick?? Was due to fly to Portugal in middle of May.. Got e-mail from ryanair offering us a choice to re-book alternative date before 31st August only.. Who being the dick now..

paddy19

Sono Topolino wrote: »

Anyone asking for a refund is being a dick. I understand that you cannot travel and this isn’t your fault, but neither is it the airline’s fault and they shouldn’t have to go bust.

Take the voucher and be grateful.

I'm not an investor. I don't get a share in the profits in the good times.

These are private for profit companies. Why should I be asked to provide an interest free loan to them. That's what banks, investors and hedge funds are for.

You and Shane Ross propose I should subsidise Michael O'Leary?

OnYerPike

Sono Topolino wrote: »

Anyone asking for a refund is being a dick. I understand that you cannot travel and this isn’t your fault, but neither is it the airline’s fault and they shouldn’t have to go bust.

Take the voucher and be grateful.

As the bould Nathaniel Bumppo, adopted son of Chingachgook, once said: 'You do what you want with your own scalp, don't tell us what to do with ours'

OnYerPike

paddy19 wrote: »

I'm not an investor. I don't get a share in the profits in the good times.

These are private for profit companies. Why should I be asked to provide an interest free loan to them. That's what banks, investors and hedge funds are for.

You and Shane Ross propose I should subsidise Michael O'Leary?

In fairness, it seems not even Michael O'Leary is asking you to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

Ryanair appear to be giving full refunds and also making it easy to apply for them.

Stop trying to nail him to the cross!!!

Credit where it's due.

carq

Any word out of BA?
was supposed to be flying to mexico last monday - booked through a third party.
Contacted the third party and have started refund process but they are bound to whatever decision BA take.

Also is it legal for a third party to charge to process a refund?

3DataModem

One point I keep hearing is "if the airlines go bust now then we won't be able to travel after this is all over" etc.

I think this is far less the case than for other industries. The airplanes will still exist. The pilots will still exist. It will not be impossible for other businesses to take on those assets out of the ashes of the current airlines; if there is demand for flights then new operators will use those planes and pilots to fill it. Of course nobody wants this, but I think it is far better than bailing out the airlines.

I for one am glad we passed the 5 year voucher legislation recently.

carq

3DataModem wrote: »

One point I keep hearing is "if the airlines go bust now then we won't be able to travel after this is all over" etc.

I think this is far less the case than for other industries. The airplanes will still exist. The pilots will still exist. It will not be impossible for other businesses to take on those assets out of the ashes of the current airlines; if there is demand for flights then new operators will use those planes and pilots to fill it. Of course nobody wants this, but I think it is far better than bailing out the airlines.

I for one am glad we passed the 5 year voucher legislation recently.

How does the 5 year voucher legislation tally with the 12 month vouchers airlines have been offering?
If they offered me 5 year credit i would be much more likely to take it

crazy 88

OnYerPike wrote: »

In fairness, it seems not even Michael O'Leary is asking you to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

Ryanair appear to be giving full refunds and also making it easy to apply for them.

Stop trying to nail him to the cross!!!

Credit where it's due.

They are offering refunds because they have to under law but are now trying to frustrate customers into accepting vouchers or rebooked flights by drawing out the refund process for as long as possible, which will probably turn into being drawn out indefinitely:

"as our payment agents are required to stay at home in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic, payment security restrictions prevent us from processing cash refunds until the Covid-19 crisis has abated"

This is a complete lie. The "payment systems" he refers to are most likely 3rd party managed and not even on their network. Even if their agents did need direct access to Ryanair systems a simple VPN from home would allow them to do so. I imagine they have this already and if not it could be easily set up.

paddy19

"In fairness, it seems not even Michael O'Leary is asking you to subsidise Michael O'Leary.

Ryanair appear to be giving full refunds and also making it easy to apply for them."

Not any more, MOL has gone over to the dark delayed refund side.

What was pathetic was the lame excuse:

"The emails tell passengers who “wish to request cash as an alternative” to a voucher that “as our payment agents are required to stay at home in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic, payment security restrictions prevent us from processing cash refunds until the Covid-19 crisis has abated."

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/europe/coronavirus-ryanair-suspends-refunds-and-offers-passengers-vouchers-instead-1.4225203

No refunds from MOL until after Covid because he can't manage to get those computing machines to give customers their money back automatically. He has to have a real live human process the requested refund. Strange since the form has all the information needed for a refund.

Even stranger "Ryanair labs are building high performance software which will be used by millions of customers on a daily basis, our software development team work with cutting edge technology to provide technical solutions and innovative ideas to revolutionise the travel industry and exceed the expectations of customers and business users."

You'd think with 300 hot shot software developers MOL would be able to manage the "payment security restrictions" that inhibit him from giving passengers the money they are owed.

johnire

If I were to decide not to travel and the flight isn’t cancelled by the airline am I correct to say I can claim back the government tax? Does anyone have any idea how much that is? I’ve searched everywhere but can’t find a figure. It’s probably wouldn’t even be worth my while to apply for a refund as I see both Ryanair and Aer Lingus charge a €20 administration fee to process a refund.
Thanks in advance.

Sheep Shagger

johnire wrote: »

If I were to decide not to travel and the flight isn’t cancelled by the airline am I correct to say I can claim back the government tax? Does anyone have any idea how much that is? I’ve searched everywhere but can’t find a figure. It’s probably wouldn’t even be worth my while to apply for a refund as I see both Ryanair and Aer Lingus charge a €20 administration fee to process a refund.
Thanks in advance.

The tax element of a flight only goes to the exchequer if your bum is on the seart, it should be split out on your original email booking confirmation.

TempPlease

carq wrote: »

How does the 5 year voucher legislation tally with the 12 month vouchers airlines have been offering?
If they offered me 5 year credit i would be much more likely to take it

I booked through an agent and am only getting offered a credit note for the flights that have to be used by Apr 30th 2020 and fly before March 21 which is less than 12 months after I was due to travel. They are blaming aer lingus and aer lingus wont give us any info other than the agent has to deal with us and offer their own terms. So frustrating. Dont know what to do here. I have yearly travel insurance but not sure if theyll pay out

paddy19

TempPlease wrote: »

I booked through an agent and am only getting offered a credit note for the flights that have to be used by Apr 30th 2020 and fly before March 21 which is less than 12 months after I was due to travel. They are blaming aer lingus and aer lingus wont give us any info other than the agent has to deal with us and offer their own terms. So frustrating. Dont know what to do here. I have yearly travel insurance but not sure if theyll pay out

I'd be very careful about accepting a voucher.
Once you accept you are bound by it's very limiting conditions.
You are entitled by EU regulation 261 to full refund.

I'd stick to my guns and keep asking for a refund under EU261.
You have nothing to loose you can accept the voucher at any stage if its suits.

TempPlease

paddy19 wrote: »

I'd be very careful about accepting a voucher.
Once you accept you are bound by it's very limiting conditions.
You are entitled by EU regulation 261 to full refund.

I'd stick to my guns and keep asking for a refund under EU261.
You have nothing to loose you can accept the voucher at any stage if its suits.

We have been sticking to our guns but they said if we dont book by 30th Apr we’ll lose the money and chance for the voucher. Its so frustrating being told from citizens advice and CCPC helpline that we’re entitled and the agent is getting frustrated with us in their replies to us etc.

paddy19

TempPlease wrote: »

We have been sticking to our guns but they said if we dont book by 30th Apr we’ll lose the money and chance for the voucher. Its so frustrating being told from citizens advice and CCPC helpline that we’re entitled and the agent is getting frustrated with us in their replies to us etc.

This pretty outrageous. You are effectively been blackmailed. Obviously you need to make sure your case is bulletproof. The airlines will use any excuse to weasel their way out. Having to work through an agent does not help. This can confuse the legal position. I'm not sure if the agent or the airline is liable. If the agent is liable then the voucher may be the only viable option.

You have till April the 30th. I would officially request a refund under eu261and ask them to explain there legal justification for refusing to refund your cash.

TempPlease

paddy19 wrote: »

This pretty outrageous. You are effectively been blackmailed. Obviously you need to make sure your case is bulletproof. The airlines will use any excuse to weasel their way out. Having to work through an agent does not help. This can confuse the legal position. I'm not sure if the agent or the airline is liable. If the agent is liable then the voucher may be the only viable option.

You have till April the 30th. I would officially request a refund under eu261and ask them to explain there legal justification for refusing to refund your cash.

I am going to try again but have already sent them messages re the act/directives we are ‘entitled’ under. The other party to the holiday was on to CCPC and they sent a template email which explicitly asks ‘on what legal basis am I being denied etc.’ We sent that on and the agent again just said its the airline bla bla bla. I feel like the more we question they are just getting more frustrated and not answering us in full.

If we got the voucher with the 5 year deadline i’d take it.

Definitely unprecedented and frustrating times for all involved. There’s definitely more important things going on in the world but just dont want to be pushed into something because of the situation either.

Monokne

Has anyone had any joy from Expedia? I have waited multiple calls a total of like 4 or 5 hours but been unable to get through and they are refusing to help me by email, DM or live chat.

My flights were March 28 and April 5, all cancelled by the airline. I just want my money back or at the very least SOME communication.

I've sent them an email quoting EU261 trying to force their hand to ring or refund me.

paddy19

Monokne wrote: »

Has anyone had any joy from Expedia? I have waited multiple calls a total of like 4 or 5 hours but been unable to get through and they are refusing to help me by email, DM or live chat.

My flights were March 28 and April 5, all cancelled by the airline. I just want my money back or at the very least SOME communication.

I've sent them an email quoting EU261 trying to force their hand to ring or refund me.

I think they are all buried.
But at least with EU261 you can pursue them for 6 years.

You may want to look at chargeback, if you used a credit card, as a fallback position. Hopefully you are still within the time limits.

JJJJNR

Have 4.5 k in flights with air lingus who are doing vouchers for 5 years, I purchased on visa debit can i do a charge back bit of a joke tbh that the money is sitting in their account *never heard that one before* they could go to the wall at any stage.

paddy19

JJJJNR wrote: »

Have 4.5 k in flights with air lingus who are doing vouchers for 5 years, I purchased on visa debit can i do a charge back bit of a joke tbh that the money is sitting in their account *never heard that one before* they could go to the wall at any stage.

They are part of IAG, unlikely to go bust.

From B Of I.....
Can I request a refund/chargeback at any time?

You have 120 days (maximum) to dispute a transaction. The charge back allows:
You enough time to contact a retailer as the first step.
The retailer to respond to you or issue a refund. A retailer is allowed 30 days from date you returned a product to issue a refund.

These are calender days.

I'd start with chargeback because is it time limited.
You may not be able to go small claims court route as you are the €2,000 limit unless they are separate transactions.

You can chase EU261 for up to 6 years for airlines with headquarters in Ireland.

Monokne

paddy19 wrote: »

I think they are all buried.
But at least with EU261 you can pursue them for years.

You may want to look at chargeback, if you used a credit card, as a fallback position. Hopefully you are still within the time limits.

Buried? Can you elaborate? Not sure I get you!

I have considered chargeback. I am with PTSB. Booked the flights in January.

paddy19

Monokne wrote: »

Buried? Can you elaborate? Not sure I get you!

I have considered chargeback. I am with PTSB. Booked the flights in January.

Buried as in totally overloaded with refund requests.

That's not to forgive them for play acting because they really have nothing else do to do.

Important that you get you chargeback request in within 120 days for most banks.

Monokne

Ah yes. I understand.

I will contact PTSB tomorrow to request chargeback.

Anyone ever done a chargeback before? Curious as to what the process is/what I've to do or provide and what the timescales are like for resolution.

JimmyVik

Monokne wrote: »

Ah yes. I understand.

I will contact PTSB tomorrow to request chargeback.

Anyone ever done a chargeback before? Curious as to what the process is/what I've to do or provide and what the timescales are like for resolution.

30 days since my refund request from Ryanair. Return flight should have been yesterday. Im giving them a week now and then i'll do chargeback. Its been over 150 days since I booked it so ive heard people mentioning chargeback should be done within 120 days, but I dont see how thats possible. You dont know the flight didnt go until almost a year later in some cases.


I'll give it a go anyway.
Ive two more sets of flights in the summer all booked at the same time. No way to ask for chargeback on them because they havent been cancelled yet, even though they were booked well over 120 days ago already.

Monokne

JimmyVik wrote: »

30 days since my refund request from Ryanair. Return flight should have been yesterday. Im giving them a week now and then i'll do chargeback. Its been over 150 days since I booked it so ive heard people mentioning chargeback should be done within 120 days, but I dont see how thats possible. You dont know the flight didnt go until almost a year later in some cases.


I'll give it a go anyway.
Ive two more sets of flights in the summer all booked at the same time. No way to ask for chargeback on them because they havent been cancelled yet, even though they were booked well over 120 days ago already.

I've flights booked in mid August, debating at what point do I cancel those

paddy19

Monokne wrote: »

I've flights booked in mid August, debating at what point do I cancel those

Maybe I misunderstand but be careful not to cancel.

If you cancel you'll only get taxes and will have to pay €20 Government Tax Refund Administration Fee Per Passenger.

The airline has to cancel before you will get a full refund.

Monokne

Cheers for the heads up Paddy19.

I have just spoken with PTSB about a chargeback. They basically told me there was no point in doing the chargeback prodecure until I had gone through the process with Expedia, & failing that through Aviationreg.ie. They said that the chargeback would just be declined until I had exhausted all other avenues.

paddy19

Monokne wrote: »

Cheers for the heads up Paddy19.

I have just spoken with PTSB about a chargeback. They basically told me there was no point in doing the chargeback prodecure until I had gone through the process with Expedia, & failing that through Aviationreg.ie. They said that the chargeback would just be declined until I had exhausted all other avenues.

Thanks for that.
It's what you'd expect from the bankers.
Lots of fancy claims but obsticle course when you try to get the money.
The issue here is that you may end up past the 120 day window. The regulator doesn't want to know until you have given the airline 4 to 6 weeks to respond.

Monokne

The whole thing is a mess.

JTMan

Aer Lingus, 1 month later, are still not giving me a refund.

I need the cash.

Has anyone done a Revolut chargeback for Aer Lingus flights? Is this my best next step?

Wuff Wuff

Ryanair email this morning for a flight May 1st, refund button on the mail click and away, painless procedure now just wait for the money to hit

Aerlingus - still waiting since March 18th for a refund of a cancelled flight, they only responded to the mail on the 26th offering a refund and nothing since,

woodyman

Just to let everyone waiting on refunds know that Aer Lingus are issuing refunds where they cancelled the flight.

My return flight from Spain was cancelled and no alternative flight offered so I chose not to travel out and requested a refund for the full trip on 15 March. The refund hit my account today (31 days later) and I received no correspondence at any stage.

I had begun the chargeback process a few days ago but I was able to stop it today. Without a doubt the communication could be better and save the airline time and money but the refunds do seem to be coming eventually.

JimmyVik

Has anyone actually got money back from Ryanair for a cancelled flight in the last month?

riddles

Does anyone have an opinion on the June flight schedule to Italy, France and Spain.

Current situation is the flight is booked with AL for early June - there is no communication so far on that. The balance on accommodation is due also in the next two weeks.

Any opinions on how people should proceed here?

michellie

riddles wrote: »

Does anyone have an opinion on the June flight schedule to Italy, France and Spain.

Current situation is the flight is booked with AL for early June - there is no communication so far on that. The balance on accommodation is due also in the next two weeks.

Any opinions on how people should proceed here?

I'm booked outbound for the end of June with AL. My accommodation is pay on arrival. But its only free cancellation until May 13th. The hotel chain have been doing free cancellation because of this so I will keep an eye on things and make a decision next month.

JimmyVik

riddles wrote: »

Does anyone have an opinion on the June flight schedule to Italy, France and Spain.

Current situation is the flight is booked with AL for early June - there is no communication so far on that. The balance on accommodation is due also in the next two weeks.

Any opinions on how people should proceed here?

Im thinking that there will be no holidays at all this summer. The only reason flights will take off is to get your money, even if restrictions are still in place. Cant imagine a holiday would be much fun anyway if you cant go to the pub or other tourist activities.

paddy19

riddles wrote: »

Does anyone have an opinion on the June flight schedule to Italy, France and Spain.

Current situation is the flight is booked with AL for early June - there is no communication so far on that. The balance on accommodation is due also in the next two weeks.

Any opinions on how people should proceed here?

Hard to see AL back in June but who knows. I'd be inclined to request an extension on paying the accommodation. First rule of negotiation you have to ask! They should be happy to keep you.

Worth looking at the terms of the contract and remember Irish law might give you an out.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/travel/travel_plans_and_covid19.html

The only way I can see airlines getting back in business is test before fly like Eremites tried in Abu Dhabi.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/emirates-using-10-minute-covid-19-blood-test-before-passengers-depart-1.4229627

Jays Michael O'Leary is going to love that!

paddy19

JimmyVik wrote: »

Im thinking that there will be no holidays at all this summer. The only reason flights will take off is to get your money, even if restrictions are still in place. Cant imagine a holiday would be much fun anyway if you cant go to the pub or other tourist activities.

Passed flying empty planes phase me thinks.

Lex Luthor

Monokne wrote: »

I've flights booked in mid August, debating at what point do I cancel those

I wouldnt cancel any flights before they come to you first, as mentioned you will get very little back

you are probably like most of us, my plan is to sit and wait til the 11th hour and hopefully flight gets cancelled

We're not going anyway so if it never gets cancelled I will write it off, but fingers crossed it will and then apply for refund

Lex Luthor

riddles wrote: »

Does anyone have an opinion on the June flight schedule to Italy, France and Spain.

Current situation is the flight is booked with AL for early June - there is no communication so far on that. The balance on accommodation is due also in the next two weeks.

Any opinions on how people should proceed here?

we were early Jun in Canaries, accom balance due last month. Decided to cancel that and lose €250 deposit

Cant imagine a holiday this summer will be great, most places closed, probably beaches aswell, confined a lot indoors, lines for shopping, no bars, restaurants
Doesnt sound like a lot of fun to me

I would say for a flight in Jun you wont hear anything for another couple weeks

nailer54321

If your flights are cancelled they have to offer you a refund, that said they might not offer you a refund in the e-mail they send you as they will try get you to accept a voucher or rebook for a later date, when yiu receive e-mail saying your flight is cancalled just give them a call and ask what are your options, they should give you a few option and one should be a refund, was in same position with Lufthansa, no mention on there site about getting refund, just vouchers and rescheduling flughts, waited for email and just called them and asked what was my option aand straight away was offered a full refund along with all the other options, if you want a refund just wait for confirmation on flights been cancelled .

Padraig Mor

.

Feck you Ryanair, I want my money!!

JTMan

The Aviation Regulator says they need to see evidence of written complaint to Aer Lingus. All my complaints to Aer Lingus were by phone.

What is an email address that I can use to contact Aer Lingus? or how would anyone suggest I put a complaint in writing to them about their disgraceful behaviour over not giving me a refund?

Thanks.

mgray

JTMan wrote: »

Aer Lingus, 1 month later, are still not giving me a refund.

I need the cash.

Has anyone done a Revolut chargeback for Aer Lingus flights? Is this my best next step?

Different circumstances but I have a chargeback with revolut for flybe, submitted on 6th match. Over 40 days have passed so got on to them yesterday. They didn't process claim until the 17th and can take up to 32 days, which is, well, tomorrow so will get back on to them next week if I don't hear Mon/Tue..

JTMan

@Paddy19 - Thank you. I sent an email to ccu@aerlingus.com. It bounced despite that email address being on several websites. Anyway, I PDF'ed the email to the regulator. Total farce that the regulator insist on written correspondence when it is virtually impossible to find an email address for Aer Lingus. This whole process would drive you demented. Is anyone on the consumers side?

@mgray - Thank you.

I'll give the regulator a few days. If there is still no action by the regulator nor Aer Lingus, I will need to decide if a chargeback or a small claims court application is my next step.

I hate Aer Lingus.

paddy19

JTMan wrote: »

@Paddy19 - Thank you. I sent an email to ccu@aerlingus.com. It bounced despite that email address being on several websites.

Sorry about that. It took a while to bounce.

It always cheeses me off that the regulators allow these yahoo to refuse to have a customer email.

You could try Martin Lewis free Resolver service:
https://www.resolver.co.uk/companies/aer-lingus-complaints/contact-details

I used it in the past, it's not bad and its free.

Other alternative is a fax. +353 1 8863832

If all else fails I'd write to refunds department, Aer Lingus, Dublin Airport.
Alternatively you could send it to the CEO Sean Liam Doyle.
No harm to let him know that they are acting the maggot although he is probably organising it.

Keep it simple your email, book ref, flight ref., flight cancelled, refund please.

You could use of the free cards from An Post. Save you a euro!

If it's worth €25 I'd go the small claims route.
If they don't pay up the sheriff can go in and take something worth the fare.

Probably won't come to that!

JTMan

Thanks again Paddy.

I will fill in Martin Lewis's form. I will also ring Aer Lingus and ask for an email address or if not send a postal letter.

I have no fax access.

Aer Lingus owe me just under €1,000, so yeah it is worth €25. I would rather give it another little while before going down the small claims court route.