Airlines breaking EU law by not offering refunds

Sheep Shagger

mgray wrote: »

Different circumstances but I have a chargeback with revolut for flybe, submitted on 6th match. Over 40 days have passed so got on to them yesterday. They didn't process claim until the 17th and can take up to 32 days, which is, well, tomorrow so will get back on to them next week if I don't hear Mon/Tue..

My chargeback with BOI for flybe flights was processed in 7 days.

That website endorsed by Martin Lewis is a UK, I wouldn't waste your time, go down the chargeback route. It might take time but so will filling out that form as they are only an intermediary (how do they make their money, they must charge a fee).

Julabo

nailer54321 wrote: »

If your flights are cancelled they have to offer you a refund, that said they might not offer you a refund in the e-mail they send you as they will try get you to accept a voucher or rebook for a later date, when yiu receive e-mail saying your flight is cancalled just give them a call and ask what are your options, they should give you a few option and one should be a refund, was in same position with Lufthansa, no mention on there site about getting refund, just vouchers and rescheduling flughts, waited for email and just called them and asked what was my option aand straight away was offered a full refund along with all the other options, if you want a refund just wait for confirmation on flights been cancelled .

Did you get the refund into your account yet?

Am still waiting for mine from lufthansa. Flights were from March 23rd.

Gael23

I would have no problem accepting Ryanair’s voucher if I could use it to a different destination but since I can’t I have to press for s refund.

Padraig Mor

Gael23 wrote: »

I would have no problem accepting Ryanair’s voucher if I could use it to a different destination but since I can’t I have to press for s refund.

Is that the 'refund' voucher for a cancelled flight, or the voucher offered before they cancel the flight. The refund one can be used on any route

Lex Luthor

https://www.tripadvisor.com/blog/covid-19-airline-cancellation-and-change-policies/

paddy19

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

My chargeback with BOI for flybe flights was processed in 7 days.

That website endorsed by Martin Lewis is a UK, I wouldn't waste your time, go down the chargeback route. It might take time but so will filling out that form as they are only an intermediary (how do they make their money, they must charge a fee).

Great that you got the chargeback from BoI for Flybe.
The banks hold back money from the airlines depending on their view of the risk of liquidation. I've got a feeing that FlyBe may have been on the long payment schedule. Be interesting to see how people get on with Ryanair and Aer Lingus.

Just for clarity the resolver site is UK based but accepts issues from Ireland.
It worked for me with Etihad on flights from Dublin. The forms are very straight forward. Frankly I don't care how they make money as long as it works for me.

It's another route and it's free.

Gael23

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Is that the 'refund' voucher for a cancelled flight, or the voucher offered before they cancel the flight. The refund one can be used on any route

The one of I choose to change my plans. I don’t particularly want to go near Italy any time soon

Padraig Mor

Gael23 wrote: »

The one of I choose to change my plans. I don’t particularly want to go near Italy any time soon

Hang on so. Of they've emailed you to offer a 'free' flight change, chances are they're going to cancel it shortly (when are you flying?). At that stage then you should be able to get a flexible voucher or one of the infamous 'refunds'...

Gael23

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Hang on so. Of they've emailed you to offer a 'free' flight change, chances are they're going to cancel it shortly (when are you flying?). At that stage then you should be able to get a flexible voucher or one of the infamous 'refunds'...

Flight on June 27th to Rome

yankinlk

Wuff Wuff wrote: »

Ryanair email this morning for a flight May 1st, refund button on the mail click and away, painless procedure now just wait for the money to hit

Aerlingus - still waiting since March 18th for a refund of a cancelled flight, they only responded to the mail on the 26th offering a refund and nothing since,

Ryanair and painless refund.... I dont think so. You will get the same run around everyone else is getting. No one has posted that ryanair has actually refunded anyone yet. Waiting since 20th of March and given a voucher I didn't ask for or want.

On chargebacks.... is it the 120 days from purchase date.... or is it 120 days from when service should have been offered? I bought flights in September for March.... am going to try charge back once the 30 days is past.

paddy19

yankinlk wrote: »

On chargebacks.... is it the 120 days from purchase date.... or is it 120 days from when service should have been offered? I bought flights in September for March.... am going to try charge back once the 30 days is past.

According the the British consumer magazine Which:

"There is a time limit on chargeback claims - typically 120 days from the transaction processing date,

or from when you expected to receive the goods/service if it’s being delivered."

This makes sense, you can't say the airline didn't deliver the service until after the fly date has passed or when they informed you the flight was cancelled.

Be very careful times limit can vary by credit card type and bank so check with your bank.

maestroamado

I originally thought the rules be changed but it now seems unlikely.
I do now blame the Airlines trying to offer vouchers but i do think people should be offered a free transfer to a new date or a voucher.
It seems they will try as hard as possible to do and i think majority be happy as i will be this as ok for me, i did buy a flight for another person and i may try get refund for this one.
I am now thinking if we insist on refund we will probably get it but it will be a while
This idea of offering free transfer and paying full price difference not fair in my opinion.

JimmyVik

maestroamado wrote: »

I originally thought the rules be changed but it now seems unlikely.
I do now blame the Airlines trying to offer vouchers but i do think people should be offered a free transfer to a new date or a voucher.
It seems they will try as hard as possible to do and i think majority be happy as i will be this as ok for me, i did buy a flight for another person and i may try get refund for this one.
I am now thinking if we insist on refund we will probably get it but it will be a while
This idea of offering free transfer and paying full price difference not fair in my opinion.

Just do a chargeback.
You paid for a service. You didnt get the service. No deal happened. Take your cash. You got nothing for it.

paddy19

JimmyVik wrote: »

Just do a chargeback.
You paid for a service. You didnt get the service. No deal happened. Take your cash. You got nothing for it.

I can't understand the attraction of chargeback except for small amounts.

I cannot find any time limits on the merchant to respond.

According to Martin Lewis

"How long does it take to get a refund?

Unfortunately, there's no specific time frame when it comes to getting your money back. Once you've applied for chargeback, it's up to your card provider to contact the supplier's bank to process the refund, which could take time."

So you have to wait for 30 days before you can dispute the transaction and however long Ryanair decree to respond.

Going to require a lot of patience me thinks!

Small claims accepts your claim once Ryanair have broken the law by not refunding you after 7 days after your request.

Ryanair have 15 calendar days to respond.

So you have served a legally enforceable claim on Ryanair 25 calendar days.

Your chargeback hasn't even got off the ground....

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Still going around in circles with Swiss. Flight was meant to take off two weeks ago but obviously cancelled (3 weeks ago) - refund was requested back then only to be told they're only dealing with rebookings.

Really poor service from what I would have considered to be one of the better airlines.

Would sort of expect this nonsense from Ryanair but not a "legacy" airline.

Sheep Shagger

Paddy19, anyone would think you are either Martin Lewis or have shares in resolve website how often you push it on various different threads. From what I can see they use the statistics gathered and sell those to businesses (stats not personal data). It's a UK site so am sure they are inundated with UK queries and those in Ireland won't be the priority (their client businesses wont care about Irish consumers problems).

As for the 14 days the airline have to respond by, that's in normal circumstances in which we are not in so doubt that will happen, nothing will happen to a company that doesn"t comply.

Chargebacks are internationally recognised as they are a merchant T&C of accepting Visa and Mastercard, regardless of transaction size or location.

At the moment they are going to take longer in the current climate to process., then again everything will.

Monokne

NOTE TO ALL USING EXPEDIA

They are now offering to arrange cancellation & refunds online:

https://www.expedia.ie/travel-alert-refunds

Sorry for the all caps, just wanted anyone looking for this info to see it to avoid queuing on the phone for 5 hours.

paddy19

Sheep Shagger;Paddy19, anyone would think you are either Martin Lewis or have shares in resolve website how often you push it on various different threads. From what I can see they use the statistics gathered and sell those to businesses (stats not personal data). It's a UK site so am sure they are inundated with UK queries and those in Ireland won't be the priority (their client businesses wont care about Irish consumers problems).

I have no interest in any of the Martin Lewis businesses. I have used resolver and found it worked. It's free and another option to try to get refunds. Your speculation on it's efficiency is just that, idle speculation. If there is an Irish equivalent to the resolver service just let me know and I will cheerfully reference it.

As for the 14 days the airline have to respond by, that's in normal circumstances in which we are not in so doubt that will happen, nothing will happen to a company that doesn"t comply.

Chargebacks are internationally recognised as they are a merchant T&C of accepting Visa and Mastercard, regardless of transaction size or location.

If you had bothered to give the small claims process a cursory look, you would have seen that if the airline does not reply within 15 days the court holds for the claimant.

There is no time limit on the reply from Ryanair in Chargeback.

Bottom line, chargeback is a process depend on bankers and Ryanair with no commitment on times limits except for the consumer.
If you have faith in both of them providing a timely refund then that's fine.
Given that Ryanair is in breach of the law on refunds and Irish bankers have well documented history of ripping off consumers I'm not sure your confidence is warranted.

At the moment they are going to take longer in the current climate to process., then again everything will.

Not in my experience of the small claims process so far, it is still timely and does not seem to effected by the present situation.

Del Griffith

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

My holiday to Greece in May with Jet2 has been cancelled. They are pushing for people to rebook which I have no issue with but my query is about my travel insurance.

I have had a yearly policy with TheAA for a few years and it renews in August.
I booked my holiday in early January so as it stands, I’m covered for Covid19 issues.
TheAA state that any policies or bookings made after 16 March WILL NOT cover Covid19 related issue.

If I rebook with Jet2 will this be classed as a new booking?
When my policy renews in August will the Covid19 issues be in the restrictions?

I would be thinking of rebooking for September at the earliest and probably a lot later. If Jet2 go under, I’m wondering if I’ll be covered. I emailed TheAA and they auto replied saying look at FAQ but I couldn’t see anything.

Related: Greece passed a law allowing them to break EU law, and just offer vouchers - https://money-tourism.gr/ekdothike-pnp-to-voucher-ti-ischyei-tis-akyroseis-se-aeroplana-karavia-diamoni-diataxeis-fek/

So did Germany apparently too.

Have tried to get refund with TAP airlines, impossible.
Their rep told me they are refunding flights to & from USA & Israel but they will not refund European flights.
She told me to ring back next week as this may change.
I think they are just waiting for their government to change the rules for them, she denied that, but she doesn't know.
I have phoned, emailed, even used twitter & I am getting nowhere with them.
Do I have any options?

Nermal

Speaking from the merchant side: when we were notified of chargebacks, it was not a case of ‘call us to discuss’. It was ‘we’re taking this from your bank account within a few days unless you provide evidence that the service was delivered’. And they did so. Might not take long for the customer.

davehey79

Just been onto PTSB to start a chargeback on my 3 Ryanair cancelled flights. They are unable to proceed as all normal rules arnd regualtion have been set aside and its now down to Ryanair to give the refund

JTMan

After having got nowhere with Aer Lingus (5 phone conversations) and nowhere with the regulator yet, I have started a chargeback via Revolut for my flights. Revolut chat were helpful and I have filled in a form. Revolut will now contact Aer Lingus on my behalf. Unlike PTSB, they seem to be processing travel chargebacks.

paddy19

Nermal wrote: »

Speaking from the merchant side: when we were notified of chargebacks, it was not a case of ‘call us to discuss’. It was ‘we’re taking this from your bank account within a few days unless you provide evidence that the service was delivered’. And they did so. Might not take long for the customer.

Very interesting to hear it from the merchants side. I'm guesssing you are referring to smaller merchants.

I wonder does size matter here, would Ryanair be treated in the same way as a small merchant?

The indicators so far as not good. VISA international seem to have placed all Ryanair chargebacks on hold since they are offering vouchers.

Nermal

davehey79 wrote: »

Just been onto PTSB to start a chargeback on my 3 Ryanair cancelled flights. They are unable to proceed as all normal rules arnd regualtion have been set aside and its now down to Ryanair to give the refund

Pretty outrageous. I would make a complaint to PTSB. Ask them to give you a final response as quickly as possible. With that, you can go to the ombudsman.

Nermal

paddy19 wrote: »

Very interesting to hear it from the merchants side. I'm guesssing you are referring to smaller merchants.

I wonder does size matter here, would Ryanair be treated in the same way as a small merchant?

The indicators so far as not good. VISA international seem to have placed all Ryanair chargebacks on hold since they are offering vouchers.

This was a big merchant in an Irish context, but Ryanair are on another level. I don’t doubt that the relationship might be different.

But still, Visa and card issuers are regulated entities. They have to handle complaints, give a final response and if you take that to the ombudsman, they must abide by the decision.

It’s worth trying every approach you can.

Monokne

davehey79 wrote: »

Just been onto PTSB to start a chargeback on my 3 Ryanair cancelled flights. They are unable to proceed as all normal rules arnd regualtion have been set aside and its now down to Ryanair to give the refund

Had this as well

beggars_bush

amazing how quickly EU laws go out the window to save companies and not consumers

JohnCleary

davehey79 wrote: »

Just been onto PTSB to start a chargeback on my 3 Ryanair cancelled flights. They are unable to proceed as all normal rules arnd regualtion have been set aside and its now down to Ryanair to give the refund

I have submitted a chargeback with BOI (Vueling Airlines).

Asked for an update and their response is that it is taking up to 14 (working, I presume) days to open a chargeback case due to limited staff etc.

They said I will receive an SMS once the case is opened.

No mention of 'rules and regulations' change...

paddy19

Nermal wrote: »

This was a big merchant in an Irish context, but Ryanair are on another level. I don’t doubt that the relationship might be different.

But still, Visa and card issuers are regulated entities. They have to handle complaints, give a final response and if you take that to the ombudsman, they must abide by the decision.

It’s worth trying every approach you can.

Thanks for the information. Interesting that it was a reasonable size merchant.
The power of the bankers credit card monopoly I guess.

Not a beep from the Commission for Aviation Regulation.
There latest top news is an ad for data protection officer!

I agree that every option is worth pursuing but I'm banking on the Swords Small Claims Court because they have tight time limits.

We shall see.

charlietheminxx

I posted this in a thread over on Aviation as well, but need all the advice I can get.

I had flights to New York with Delta for tomorrow. I contacted them when the travel ban was introduced as I couldn't refund my booking online. I specifically asked them how to obtain a refund as I was receiving an error message on their website.

Instead they gave me an MCO which is valid for a year and it turns out that these are a NIGHTMARE to use, outdated coupons which must be used in full and can only be used if I ring a US hub to make the booking (this is as much information as I can find about them online).

Having listened to a piece on the radio this morning which said airlines should be offering outright refunds but are fobbing people off with vouchers, I contacted Delta again but they are saying it was a voluntary cancellation so I'm not entitled to anything. Does anyone have any advice on this?

FWIW, Delta stopped operating flights between Dublin and New York before I contacted them, have not operated any since and that flight is cancelled.

Kerry25x

Sorry if this has been asked already but.....

anyone know if the airline vouchers are transferable so they can be given or sold to other people?

tom1ie

davehey79 wrote: »

Just been onto PTSB to start a chargeback on my 3 Ryanair cancelled flights. They are unable to proceed as all normal rules arnd regualtion have been set aside and its now down to Ryanair to give the refund

I rang PTSB yesterday and was told the chargeback facility has been suspended due to covid 19.
apparently everyone is in the same boat.
I rang CCPC and they said there is no basis in legislation for chargebacks and its up to each bank individually to decide on if they want to provide a chargeback facility or not!

JTMan

tom1ie wrote: »

I rang PTSB yesterday and was told the chargeback facility has been suspended due to covid 19.

Clearly PTSB are making their own decision to suspend chargebacks. As other posters suggested, ask PTSB for a final response and then go to the Ombudsman. Also, suggest you drop an email to the Central Bank about what PTSB are up too.

tom1ie

so I rang PTSB just now, and got a different person who told me I have to post any documentation I have on requesting a refund from the merchant to the visa department of PTSB to attempt to get a refund.
So there is conflicting information from PTSB customer services out there at the moment

Antares35

My parents were due to return home from abroad at the end of April. Naturally, the flight is cancelled. Should they apply for "refund" or "change of flight"? Both options are being offered it seems.

paddy19

Kerry25x wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked already but.....

anyone know if the airline vouchers are transferable so they can be given or sold to other people?

Caveats always apply check the Terms agus Condition's on the site referenced on your voucher.
Different country site have different T&Cs.
Also do not confuse gift vouchers with refund vouchers.

Aer Lingus seem to be following the requirements of the new Consumer gift voucher 2019 act. 5 Years expiry and you can transfer to anyone else online for no fee.

https://www.aerlingus.com/support/forms/voucher-refund-request-form/

Ryanair is not clear but seems no.

"Each group booking will receive one voucher on behalf of all customers (including infants). The voucher will be in the customer's name who made the original booking."

https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/refund-voucher

paddy19

Antares35 wrote: »

My parents were due to return home from abroad at the end of April. Naturally, the flight is cancelled. Should they apply for "refund" or "change of flight"? Both options are being offered it seems.

You probably have 3 options:
1. Cash refund will eventually come, depending on the airline and Heather Humphreys. You could apply for a refund through the Swords Small Claims Court. It's online, as simple as setting up an Amazon account. You can claim your refund up to 6 years after the flight.

2. Change Flight, limited flight options. Brave person who would predict who will fly where when!

3. Voucher with potentially very restrictive Terms and conditions.

If you're not stuck for the money you could just sit tight with option 1.

Kerry25x

paddy19 wrote: »

Aer Lingus seem to be following the requirements of the new Consumer gift voucher 2019 act. 5 Years expiry and you can transfer to anyone else online for no fee.

https://www.aerlingus.com/support/forms/voucher-refund-request-form/

I wonder will any of those aerlingus vouchers pop up on done deal at a discount? Maybe not if people have 5 years to use them.

My flights are with Air France, they're a few months away so I'm not elligible yet and can't find terms and conditions on their own website but this is what I've seen said on other websites and forum posts:

"The voucher is valid for one year on all Air France, KLM, Delta Air Lines and Virgin Atlantic flights. If the voucher is not used within 12 months, a full refund will be issued."

Doesn't seem like the worst deal going if true. I was happy to just accept a rescheduling until later in the year but now I'm becoming less and less confident that travel will be possible until well into 2021.

paddy19

Kerry25x wrote: »

I wonder will any of those aer lingus vouchers pop up on done deal at a discount? Maybe not if people have 5 years to use them.

You'd expect it to happen, but you'd think buyers would be looking for signifiant discounts. The buyer takes the risk if any problem arises his money is gone.

Probably more likely on company notice boards so you'd have some comeback.

mountai

" Raise a dispute " seems to be the mantra with the **** ( sorry Banks ) . I pointed out to my CC bank , AIB ---- There is no dispute , you can clearly see the payment , the payee , and you know that they have cancelled all flights , so what is in dispute ??

---

. Had to send in all documentation , which they wanted by Post . When I pointed out I was " Cocooned " they agreed to accept details by Email . They just make it up as they go along . **** .

theguzman

Just to update the thread that my Credit Card charge-back against TAP Air Portugal was successful and I received back all the money I paid last week with Bank of Ireland crediting my account.

I have another flight for a family member booked with Aer Lingus to New York and I paid by Visa Debit card, I am thinking to do a chargeback on that also since Aer Lingus hasn't got a refund procedure in place and I don't fancy waiting weeks for an email reply and there call centres don't answer. However it slightly complicated since I booked and paid his ticket as the man is elderly and not tech savvy, he just gives me the cash and I do the booking each year he travels.

JohnCleary

theguzman wrote: »

Just to update the thread that my Credit Card charge-back against TAP Air Portugal was successful and I received back all the money I paid last week with Bank of Ireland crediting my account.

I have another flight for a family member booked with Aer Lingus to New York and I paid by Visa Debit card, I am thinking to do a chargeback on that also since Aer Lingus hasn't got a refund procedure in place and I don't fancy waiting weeks for an email reply and there call centres don't answer. However it slightly complicated since I booked and paid his ticket as the man is elderly and not tech savvy, he just gives me the cash and I do the booking each year he travels.

When did you submit the chargeback request? (Presume you posted off the dispute form?)

Still nothing from BOI re. my chargeback and I posted it on April 6.

Technocentral

theguzman wrote: »

Just to update the thread that my Credit Card charge-back against TAP Air Portugal was successful and I received back all the money I paid last week with Bank of Ireland crediting my account.

I have another flight for a family member booked with Aer Lingus to New York and I paid by Visa Debit card, I am thinking to do a chargeback on that also since Aer Lingus hasn't got a refund procedure in place and I don't fancy waiting weeks for an email reply and there call centres don't answer. However it slightly complicated since I booked and paid his ticket as the man is elderly and not tech savvy, he just gives me the cash and I do the booking each year he travels.

Wheras Ulsterbank didn't even acknowledge the form I filled in online about 8 days ago.

theguzman

JohnCleary wrote: »

When did you submit the chargeback request? (Presume you posted off the dispute form?)

Still nothing from BOI re. my chargeback and I posted it on April 6.

I printed and completed the Credit Card chargeback form which I then posted on the 30th of March and got the money back to my card on April 22nd, so roughly a 3 week turnaround.

I sent in a copy of the flight itinerary and TAP's email back to me offering a 1 year voucher or a free date change which was their reply to me after I originally contacted them for a refund.

paddy19

theguzman wrote: »

I printed and completed the Credit Card chargeback form which I then posted on the 30th of March and got the money back to my card on April 22nd, so roughly a 3 week turnaround.

Very good 3 weeks would be grand if it was consistent.

Which of illustrator banking institutions this?

JTMan

Still nothing back from the SCC today. How long does it take the SCC to review a submission before they take the 25 EUR and accept the case?

theguzman

paddy19 wrote: »

Very good 3 weeks would be grand if it was consistent.

Which of illustrator banking institutions this?

Bank of Ireland

theguzman

JTMan wrote: »

Still nothing back from the SCC today. How long does it take the SCC to review a submission before they take the 25 EUR and accept the case?

I sued Three Ireland once through the Small Claims Court and it took something like 3-4 months but ultimately was successful.

paddy19

JTMan wrote: »

Still nothing back from the SCC today. How long does it take the SCC to review a submission before they take the 25 EUR and accept the case?

They were very fast for me 24 hours, but we may have buried them!