Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

Dec2020

As an employer availing of the wage subsidy scheme can I take some of my employees off the TWSS and keep some employees on the TWSS or do they all have to come off it at the same time?

Tow

Dec2020 wrote: »

As an employer availing of the wage subsidy scheme can I take some of my employees off the TWSS and keep some employees on the TWSS or do they all have to come off it at the same time?

Yes. Revenue look at the PRSI Class to trigger the TWSS payment at employee level.

blackwhite

Dec2020 wrote: »

As an employer availing of the wage subsidy scheme can I take some of my employees off the TWSS and keep some employees on the TWSS or do they all have to come off it at the same time?

Under the TWSS rules you can elect to put anyone on, or take anyone off, the scheme without any obligation as to how you treat other employees.

However - all other employment law regarding discrimination, bullying, etc still stands, so you need to be careful how it’s done or you could end up on the wrong end of a WRC complaint.

igCorcaigh

Quick question please:

My partner has returned to work under the subsidy scheme and is receiving €350.01 pw with no further top up from the employer.

Is this legit? Is there any obligation on the employer to pay wages to the employee?

Kewreeuss

Legit but hard. Company would want to be in a bad way.
Im hoping they rejig the scheme, maybe pay employer a lump sum per employee and let employee work a few more hours, not limited by net pay.
I'm thinking of tourist and hospitality hourly paid staff who had low hours in Jan/Feb and who now have possibility of lots more and can't get them because they're stuck on low net pay.
Also can't get my head around people pointing out that it is illegal to pay below minimum wage. if you are working 30 hours every week at minimum wage, half your colleagues are sent home and you are one of those kept on at work, your employer enters the scheme, you continue to work your 30 hours and you get your net pay, how is your employer supposed to be able to give you your gross?
He can increase your top up, reduce the subsidy but the net stays the same.
Is the only way to work less hours?

kennethsmyth

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Legit but hard. Company would want to be in a bad way.
Im hoping they rejig the scheme, maybe pay employer a lump sum per employee and let employee work a few more hours, not limited by net pay.
I'm thinking of tourist and hospitality hourly paid staff who had low hours in Jan/Feb and who now have possibility of lots more and can't get them because they're stuck on low net pay.
Also can't get my head around people pointing out that it is illegal to pay below minimum wage. if you are working 30 hours every week at minimum wage, half your colleagues are sent home and you are one of those kept on at work, your employer enters the scheme, you continue to work your 30 hours and you get your net pay, how is your employer supposed to be able to give you your gross?
He can increase your top up, reduce the subsidy but the net stays the same.
Is the only way to work less hours?

Not quite correct - if the 350.01 equals less than 10.10 per hour then it is illegal - end of.

An employer can only reduce hours if its in your contract or if put on short time. Employer cannot unilaterally change your salary as per your contract.

The twss scheme is between revenue and employer - not the employee, other than is the employee eligible to be used by employer in scheme.

Yes if the employer reduces hours they could pay the employee more. Eg employee now works 4 days but is paid for 5 to allow claim for employer for twos.

The scheme essentially encourages employers to not pay contracted pay so that they can claim twss. The scheme was very badly setup, it should of been fixed when they had the chance early on when they changed the scheme from the original 410 aspect.
Revenue always dealt in gross figures and then taxable figures - why on earth they used net figures is beyond me - its incredibly stupid and unfair to individuals as two people with same gross figures could essentially get different net amounts due to how their tax credits or payments to pension where on their payslip. BUT the actual "net" figure of twss is not "net" its gross and yet to be taxed.

mr_edge_to_you

Anyone know what the story is with regard to availing of the TWSS but having your hours cut to a 4 day or 3 day week? Is the scheme still an option, does it restrict people from claiming social welfare (can't be receiving two forms of benefit etc).

Thanks folks.

kennethsmyth

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Anyone know what the story is with regard to availing of the TWSS but having your hours cut to a 4 day or 3 day week? Is the scheme still an option, does it restrict people from claiming social welfare (can't be receiving two forms of benefit etc).

Thanks folks.

Dont know if it restricts claiming social, however it could be advantageous (temporarily) to reduce to 4 or 3 days and maybe the full subsidy of 350 can be claimed, if this is the case maybe negotiate with employer for a topup that allows them to get full subsidy therefore you are not costing them much to top up (the top up could add to the subsidy to the level of your original full net and employer could still get subsidy.

Kewreeuss

I still don't get it.
I take home 400 euro each and every week.
I work the same hours.
Outside the subsidy my 400 euro is the result of gross less taxes.
In the subsidy my 400 is my gross and I don't pay taxes.
As far as my bank account is concerned nothing has changed.
As far as Revenue is concerned my gross pay is down and I still owe taxes.
You are saying then that my employer can't reduce my hours and he can't reduce my hourly rate below minimum wage?
if I agree to work less hours so that I get my maximum net pay (85% subsidy, 15% max top up) thats allowed, but I have to be asked?
I agree, they have had plenty of time to consider more suitable assistance to employers than letting this scheme continue to run. It was fine for a while, but they should have considered that places have opened up, work is beginning to pick up and the cash emergency after everyone being laid off is receding. Plus We are all going to owe taxes at the end of the year.
I don't know how to go back and read the previous post again, without losing what I've written already.
It's not the employers fault that as you say he is encouraged to pay less. If he is in the scheme for cash flow, he might want to pay your correct wages, but that blasted net pay is a killer.

kennethsmyth

Kewreeuss wrote: »

I still don't get it.
I take home 400 euro each and every week.
I work the same hours.
Outside the subsidy my 400 euro is the result of gross less taxes.
In the subsidy my 400 is my gross and I don't pay taxes.
As far as my bank account is concerned nothing has changed.
As far as Revenue is concerned my gross pay is down and I still owe taxes.
You are saying then that my employer can't reduce my hours and he can't reduce my hourly rate below minimum wage?
if I agree to work less hours so that I get my maximum net pay (85% subsidy, 15% max top up) thats allowed, but I have to be asked?
I agree, they have had plenty of time to consider more suitable assistance to employers than letting this scheme continue to run. It was fine for a while, but they should have considered that places have opened up, work is beginning to pick up and the cash emergency after everyone being laid off is receding. Plus We are all going to owe taxes at the end of the year.
I don't know how to go back and read the previous post again, without losing what I've written already.
It's not the employers fault that as you say he is encouraged to pay less. If he is in the scheme for cash flow, he might want to pay your correct wages, but that blasted net pay is a killer.

Ok to keep it simple, your contract is between you and employer, twss does not change this. If you were working less hours or not working (but being kept on by employer) the twss has its place. However if you are back full time with normal hours then the employer should pay you your full normal wage gross and taxed appropriately.

Employer cannot in any circumstances pay less than minimum wage of 10.10 gross per hour. This would be illegal. The emergency legislation did not change any of this. It only moved the employees right to force a redundancy situation due to layoffs or short time.

Other than something specific in a contract the employer cannot do the following without your consent.
Reduce pay
Reduce hours (unless short time which has its own rules)

blackwhite

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Not quite correct - if the 350.01 equals less than 10.10 per hour then it is illegal - end of.

An employer can only reduce hours if its in your contract or if put on short time. Employer cannot unilaterally change your salary as per your contract.

The twss scheme is between revenue and employer - not the employee, other than is the employee eligible to be used by employer in scheme.

Yes if the employer reduces hours they could pay the employee more. Eg employee now works 4 days but is paid for 5 to allow claim for employer for twos.

The scheme essentially encourages employers to not pay contracted pay so that they can claim twss. The scheme was very badly setup, it should of been fixed when they had the chance early on when they changed the scheme from the original 410 aspect.
Revenue always dealt in gross figures and then taxable figures - why on earth they used net figures is beyond me - its incredibly stupid and unfair to individuals as two people with same gross figures could essentially get different net amounts due to how their tax credits or payments to pension where on their payslip. BUT the actual "net" figure of twss is not "net" its gross and yet to be taxed.

If an employer elects to operate under the TWSS then the rules of the scheme make it virtually impossible to pay an employee the same gross as they earned in Jan/Feb (unless of course they were on less than €350 ARWNP)

Choices for an employee are simple. For your employer to validly participate in the scheme they need to be able to demonstrate that they cannot pay normal wages. If they cannot pay normal wages then your choice is take the TWSS rates, or be laid off and take €350 a week.
If you believe your employer can afford to continue to pay normal wages; then hold out for that, and if they refuse then you take them to WRC whilst reporting to Revenue that they are inappropriately participating in the scheme.

maj206

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Anyone know what the story is with regard to availing of the TWSS but having your hours cut to a 4 day or 3 day week? Is the scheme still an option, does it restrict people from claiming social welfare (can't be receiving two forms of benefit etc).

Thanks folks.

i am wondering this too as my days have been cut to 3, i rang social welfare office last week and they told me i can apply for short time working benefit as well as receiving the wage subsidy but my manager is telling me i can't do both? something fishy going on .....

Kewreeuss

maj206 wrote: »

i am wondering this too as my days have been cut to 3, i rang social welfare office last week and they told me i can apply for short time working benefit as well as receiving the wage subsidy but my manager is telling me i can't do both? something fishy going on .....

Really? the full 350 plus 2 days unemployment pay. Umm, that does sound fishy!

maj206

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Really? the full 350 plus 2 days unemployment pay. Umm, that does sound fishy!

yep thats what the lady in social welfare office told me, not sure why my manager is saying i can't tho?? i have applied online for the benefit but will prob go in to the local office during the week when i'm off as i'll prob need to bring documentation anyway

mr_edge_to_you

maj206 wrote: »

yep thats what the lady in social welfare office told me, not sure why my manager is saying i can't tho?? i have applied online for the benefit but will prob go in to the local office during the week when i'm off as i'll prob need to bring documentation anyway

In fairness to your manager, the SW comment seems mad to me I don't see how an employer could get the subsidy while reducing your hours by 40%.

Tow

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

I don't see how an employer could get the subsidy while reducing your hours by 40%.

TWSS has nothing to do with working. The employee can be sitting at home and their employer can pay them TWSS. It is however legal illegal to pay below the minimum wage and below the employees contracted rate without agreement. In some cases the only way an employer can legally pay an employees is to reduce their hours to be inline with the TWSS amount allocated to the employee.

On the other side the main qualifying factor for TWSS is a "25% reduction in turnover in Quarter 2". There are many companies who quality on the 25% reduction in turnover, but with their greatly reduced staff costs will make a large profit at the tax payers expense. Most do the decent thing and drop out of the scheme, but some will milk it as much as possible.

maj206

the 350 is a little over what i would normally get for 3 days but my place of work is now back to full hours , i have been cut to 3 so that they don't have to pay me the difference (top up my wage) if i went to 4 days or more.
have a look on citizens advice site it clearly states you can claim short time working benefit while getting wage subsidy. the fact i am being told i can't do both suggests to me they are abusing the subsidy scheme in some way and me applying for benefits may effect them ?

kennethsmyth

Tow wrote: »

TWSS has nothing to do with working. The employee can be sitting at home and their employer can pay them TWSS. It is however legal to pay below the minimum wage and below the employees contracted rate without agreement. In some cases the only way an employer can legally pay an employees is to reduce their hours to be inline with the TWSS amount allocated to the employee.

On the other side the main qualifying factor for TWSS is a "25% reduction in turnover in Quarter 2". There are many companies who quality on the 25% reduction in turnover, but with their greatly reduced staff costs will make a large profit at the tax payers expense. Most do the decent thing and drop out of the scheme, but some will milk it as much as possible.

I think you meant to say "illegal" not "legal"

irishrover99

Hopefully somebody can help here.
My Wife has just been on 2 weeks annual leave but her payslips still say Covid payment and not holiday pay. Is this normal?

Kar1994

In relation to the scheme and holiday pay, is your employer meant to sign off and pay holiday pay themselves and put you back on the scheme after that? Our company has said its paying our holidays through wage subsidy. Firstly i think its a bit cheeky but this also means that im not getting my full holiday pay? (not getting my correct contractual wage at the moment so i have finally been aloud cut down a few hours to even it out)

Seve OB

Nothing to say employer can’t use the scheme to process holiday payments

maj206

just back from intreo office, got a form to fill out and one for my employer and they took copy of my passport, proof of address etc, i am entitled to claim x and o for the 2 days i'm off as it goes by my previous prsi contributions and is not means tested so can still get wage subsidy as its not me applying for subsidy its my employer!! should be able to get it backdated also to when my company opened fully but my days were cut in early june so very happy with that outcome

scamalert

need input guys, family member who works seasonal factory work were laid off mid March- nothing to do with virus, just end of contract.


said person went to receive covid19 payment afterwards for 6 weeks or so- not by choice as everyone were put on it at the time, so returning extra overpay isnt an issue here while unemployed.



Anyhow old workplace called back again for new season contract was drafted in hourly wage 10.10e, now reading back think its done intentional and min 40hours a week, instead of normal wage and paying proper tax deductions on payslip it just shows subsidy for covid and 350e into hands- no hours worked attached or any tax deductions, is if fair to assume place is being shady and exploiting the scheme, since work is normal as usual, but from what i gather factory receives 410e for each person and pays 0, while clearly person working doesnt even get wages outlined in contract.


As it mentions online scheme is to either maintain or supplement workers, but in this case seems people are put on subsidy scheme while doing full time work, as usual :cool:

jammiedodgers

scamalert wrote: »

need input guys, family member who works seasonal factory work were laid off mid March- nothing to do with virus, just end of contract.


said person went to receive covid19 payment afterwards for 6 weeks or so- not by choice as everyone were put on it at the time, so returning extra overpay isnt an issue here while unemployed.



Anyhow old workplace called back again for new season contract was drafted in hourly wage and min 40hours a week, instead of normal wage and paying proper tax deductions on payslip it just shows subsidy for covid and 350e into hands- no hours worked attached or any tax deductions, is if fair to assume place is being shady and exploiting the scheme, since work is normal as usual, but from what i gather factory receives 410e for each person and pays 0, while clearly person working doesnt even get wages outlined in contract.


As it mentions online scheme is to either maintain or supplement workers, but in this case seems people are put on subsidy scheme while doing full time work, as usual :cool:

The company needs to show a 25% reduction in business for Q2 I believe to qualify for the scheme.
There is no onus on the company to top up the subsidy payment. The subsidy is not taxable in real time but will be instead be taxed at year end.
They will not be receiving €410 from Revenue, that was only happening at the start of the scheme and any overpayments will be repaid to Revenue.
While the company is not exploiting the scheme, it is still illegal to be paying less than minimum wage.

scamalert

thx for reply, i can see how factory would be easily able to prove and claim subsidy- as been decline since brexit start in production, but hourly wage works out at 8.75 at full hours, yet person only got paid 350.1 twice for full 40hours, in other words employer put in 10c on top to make it over 350, not sure what advise to give person, as clearly works out way below minimum wage and they pay no tax ? at least its not mentioned on payslip anyway, which other info i found online that tax credits will be adjusted come end of year for worker

jammiedodgers

They have to put some amount in as gross pay to process the payroll so that is what the €0.01/€0.10 is for.
More than likely tax credits will be adjusted next year to cover any outstanding amounts.

Tow

scamalert wrote: »

thx for reply, i can see how factory would be easily able to prove and claim subsidy- as been decline since brexit start in production, but hourly wage works out at 8.75 at full hours, yet person only got paid 350.1 twice for full 40hours, in other words employer put in 10c on top to make it over 350, not sure what advise to give person, as clearly works out way below minimum wage and they pay no tax ? at least its not mentioned on payslip anyway, which other info i found online that tax credits will be adjusted come end of year for worker

It is illegal to pay less than the minimum wage and/or the hourly contracted rate, without prior agreement.

Apart from they are milking the system, same as many other companies are now doing. The requirement is "a minimum of a 25% reduction in turnover, customer orders or any other ‘reasonable basis’ for the three months to 30 June 2020, Quarter 2" https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/ebrief/2020/no-1172020.aspx

Many a company is making a good profit now that business has returned and they are getting free labor etc.

scamalert

jammiedodgers wrote: »

They have to put some amount in as gross pay to process the payroll so that is what the €0.01/€0.10 is for.
More than likely tax credits will be adjusted next year to cover any outstanding amounts.

well if it wasnt close family i wouldn't care much, as its non essential work, and proper contract was given, but worked hour records are kept with employer and all staff even full time ones are on same reduced wages doing full hours that simply doesn't seem right, since there was no mention about pay being paid as subsidy, and 1st week is withheld until season finishes thus a bit late notice, in whats been cooked up regarding this new scheme.


so to be clear you think its nothing wrong with way factory employ's this scheme

jammiedodgers

scamalert wrote: »

so to be clear you think its nothing wrong with way factory employ's this scheme

As far as I can see there is nothing wrong with how they are operating the scheme. The issue is paying less than minimum wage/contracted rate per hour.

Millionaire only not

I haven’t followed this thread but yesterday it was brought to my attention my accountant firm well established is claiming it . They have worked full time through covit business has not been affected one bit !
I have since enquired 2 more friends that run good businesses both claiming the 85% of there wages yet both are up running as strong as ever and have actually increased work since restrictions were lifted ! One is claiming 55k a week towards wages !
Another told me have the country is on it and it’s being extended into next year is this right ?

I’m totally disgusted how dishonest these people are no morals of any description one is actually gone off buying new car .