Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

collsoft

Also, one important thing to note, the current Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme will close to new Employers on 31st July.

See the revenue document at

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/communications/documents/july-jobs-stimulus.pdf

Sorry about the confusion - I have updated to clarify that TWSS is closing to new Employers

MildThing84

Hi all,

Generally, what are employers doing with the TWSS when a bank holiday falls - next week.

Time off in lieu in place of double time? Very restrictive with the current scheme.

snowgal

collsoft wrote: »

Also, one important thing to note, the current Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme will close to new entrants on 31st July.

See the revenue document at

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/communications/documents/july-jobs-stimulus.pdf

Dont understand this fully. At the same they are saying that new employees will now be included in the wss?? is this only new employees up to 31st July then? so if we take on someone in August they wont be eligible?

dundalkfc10

collsoft wrote: »

Also, one important thing to note, the current Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme will close to new entrants on 31st July.

See the revenue document at

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/communications/documents/july-jobs-stimulus.pdf

As you know with these Govt websites, it could say something different in the morning.

Have you checked the Irish version?

MildThing84

snowgal wrote: »

Dont understand this fully. At the same they are saying that new employees will now be included in the wss?? is this only new employees up to 31st July then? so if we take on someone in August they wont be eligible?

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Kewreeuss

snowgal wrote: »

Dont understand this fully. At the same they are saying that new employees will now be included in the wss?? is this only new employees up to 31st July then? so if we take on someone in August they wont be eligible?

It says no new applications from employers. I take it that companies must get in now, or not ever.
No new employees would]nt be much help!

collsoft

Sorry about the confusion - I have updated to clarify that TWSS is closing to new Employers on 31st July

Existing employers will still be able to rehire eligible employees

tina1040

If a monthly paid employee is taking 2 weeks unpaid leave following a holiday that requires 14 days isolating, how is that done when they are on twss?

PickYourName

tina1040 wrote: »

If a monthly paid employee is taking 2 weeks unpaid leave following a holiday that requires 14 days isolating, how is that done when they are on twss?

They just get the refund amount, with no top-up?

tina1040

PickYourName wrote: »

They just get the refund amount, with no top-up?

Not really being forced to take unpaid leave then. It seems unfair to others who decided not to go out of the country on holiday as they expect to have to take unpaid leave. If they find out they don't lose much they may want to go after all.

PaybackPayroll

tina1040 wrote: »

Not really being forced to take unpaid leave then. It seems unfair to others who decided not to go out of the country on holiday as they expect to have to take unpaid leave. If they find out they don't lose much they may want to go after all.

You could always not pay them at all if this is a concern.
I don't believe you are compelled to submit a J9 (TWSS) for an employee.

PickYourName

tina1040 wrote: »

Not really being forced to take unpaid leave then. It seems unfair to others who decided not to go out of the country on holiday as they expect to have to take unpaid leave. If they find out they don't lose much they may want to go after all.

I don't think it's intended to be a punishment.

As far as I'm aware, it's up to the employer if they permit an employee to take unpaid leave. Is it fair some employers will allow this, yet others won't?

I guess life is unfair.

shatners bassoon

collsoft wrote: »

Ok, so its not going to be as simple as first thought!!!!

Under the new scheme (EWSS) Employees will revert to their normal PRSI class and rates.

However, employers will continue to pay employers PRSI at a rate of 0.5%

This is going to be challenging to implement within the current PRSI bands, rates and rules!!!!!

Hi Collsoft, thanks for your contributions to this thread.

Can you explain why/how this is going to be difficult to implement?

Thanks

MildThing84

MildThing84 wrote: »

Hi all,

Generally, what are employers doing with the TWSS when a bank holiday falls - next week.

Time off in lieu in place of double time? Very restrictive with the current scheme.

Can anybody advise on the above?

jammiedodgers

MildThing84 wrote: »

Can anybody advise on the above?

If staff member is looking for payment could you agree with them to pay it once the TWSS is ended?

PickYourName

MildThing84 wrote: »

Can anybody advise on the above?

What is the problem?

Public holidays are treated in exactly the same way as before.

Details of this may be found here:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/public_holidays_in_ireland.html

MildThing84

PickYourName wrote: »

What is the problem?

Public holidays are treated in exactly the same way as before.

Details of this may be found here:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/public_holidays_in_ireland.html

The problem is if you work the bank holiday it's essentially double pay for the day and causing issues with the restrictions on the current TWSS scheme.

PickYourName

MildThing84 wrote: »

The problem is if you work the bank holiday it's essentially double pay for the day and causing issues with the restrictions on the current TWSS scheme.

What restrictions? You can pay someone whatever you want (or more correctly, above minimum and as per their contract). You may of may not be able to recover part of what you pay according to the rules of the TWSS scheme.

Seve OB

MildThing84 wrote: »

The problem is if you work the bank holiday it's essentially double pay for the day and causing issues with the restrictions on the current TWSS scheme.

if you cant afford to top up or if topping up throws you over the limit and reduces the subsidy, then i think it leaves you with 2 choices
give them another day off..... either now or later in the year
pay them when you can afford it

Kewreeuss

Could you not take them off the subsidy for the week, pay the double time and go back on the subsidy the following week?

PickYourName

Kewreeuss wrote: »

Could you not take them off the subsidy for the week, pay the double time and go back on the subsidy the following week?

You don't even need to do that - just pay the extra and apply tapering correctly.

The options around public holidays are clear enough, as are the rules of the TWSS. I think the question is coming from a place of wanting one's cake and eating it.

bigboss1986

bigboss1986 wrote: »

Hi all.Ive been on wage subsidy scheme since day 1 it was available.
Until today I worked 25h a week and my wages were not topped up and im getting 350 covid and 1cent wages plus 45€ tax and usc refund.

Just received call that from next monday we will be back to 40h but our wages still wont be topped up and no extra money for working sundays.
Can they force me to work 40h for 350 and giving me excuse that im also getting 40€ tak refund?
Company also didnt include my commison when calculating my income for scheme

So over a month ago I had issue with my employer top ups and hours worked.I was basically told im being "awkard" asking for my wages and there is plenty people looking for job.
Just gave them notice after 13y of service,found better paid job with multinational company.
Starting next few weeks.Cant wait.

This whole scheme is pure boll@cks.I feel its like bailout for rich employers,not for all of course, but system is being abuse to f$ck.

Rant over

Millionaire only not

bigboss1986 wrote: »

So over a month ago I had issue with my employer top ups and hours worked.I was basically told im being "awkard" asking for my wages and there is plenty people looking for job.
Just gave them notice after 13y of service,found better paid job with multinational company.
Starting next few weeks.Cant wait.

This whole scheme is pure boll@cks.I feel its like bailout for rich employers,not for all of course, but system is being abuse to f$ck.

Rant over

They sent them out letters in last few days saying there are liable for paying it back and there already starting to examine .mmmmm
I’ve heard the story from both sets of employers those getting and those that were afraid of the above happening .
So I guess this will take time to play out , but god help u if revenue find u cooking the books I would think

PickYourName

bigboss1986 wrote: »

So over a month ago I had issue with my employer top ups and hours worked.I was basically told im being "awkard" asking for my wages and there is plenty people looking for job.
Just gave them notice after 13y of service,found better paid job with multinational company.
Starting next few weeks.Cant wait.

This whole scheme is pure boll@cks.I feel its like bailout for rich employers,not for all of course, but system is being abuse to f$ck.

Rant over

Sorry to hear that, but the problem isn’t with the TWSS scheme, it’s the way it’s being abused by people like your employer.

The TWSS has been absolutely critical to us. Without it, we would not have been able to re-open; we would have had to make all our employees redundant (about 20 people); we would not be trading and gradually paying off our suppliers with what we owe them, which in turn is keeping them in business.

However, it is very clear from you and others that it is being badly abused by some.

The good news is that by resigning, the balance of power in the relationship between you and your employer has completely changed as you are no longer dependent on them for a living. If I were you, I would request them to pay all monies owed to you. Make this clear that this includes any shortfall in what you should have been paid for the hours worked than if you were paid at your full rate, together with any holiday pay owed. Do this in writing, so there is a record of it.

If they don’t respond with all back-pay owed within a reasonable time, and assuming they don’t, I would then take a complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission. This is very straightforward. As well as claiming for the pay you are owed, I would also put in a claim for constructive dismissal, as you’ve effectively been made redundant (i.e. it wasn’t your choice to leave, but you had to as you weren’t being paid correctly). I’ve no doubt in normal times the WRC would throw the book at them, though they may act more leniently in present circumstances.

It may take some time, but you should end up with getting your back-pay restored. There is a good chance too that you will also get a redundancy payment and/or further compensation for the loss of your job.

Please do all of this. It is intensely annoying for us as an employer trying to survive and do the right things to know that we are competing with others who are abusing the system and acting illegally, giving them an unfair advantage. That in addition to exploiting vulnerable people who can ill afford to lose their jobs in the current environment.

I wish you all the best.

https://workplacerelations.ie/en/complaints_disputes/

bigboss1986

Thanks @PickYourName

I will do that.Thanks for the tip.All the best with you business as well.

As for TWSS i belive most employers are genuine and I know personally 2 wich wouldnt survive without it however my current /former is abusing it big time.Two people already refused to come back to work and are happy to sit at home even with reduced rate of PUP/JB.Im not saying its good either as money comes from work not from Social Welfare but I cant blame them

Dempo1

PickYourName wrote: »

Sorry to hear that, but the problem isn’t with the TWSS scheme, it’s the way it’s being abused by people like your employer.

The TWSS has been absolutely critical to us. Without it, we would not have been able to re-open; we would have had to make all our employees redundant (about 20 people); we would not be trading and gradually paying off our suppliers with what we owe them, which in turn is keeping them in business.

However, it is very clear from you and others that it is being badly abused by some.

The good news is that by resigning, the balance of power in the relationship between you and your employer has completely changed as you are no longer dependent on them for a living. If I were you, I would request them to pay all monies owed to you. Make this clear that this includes any shortfall in what you should have been paid for the hours worked than if you were paid at your full rate, together with any holiday pay owed. Do this in writing, so there is a record of it.

If they don’t respond with all back-pay owed within a reasonable time, and assuming they don’t, I would then take a complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission. This is very straightforward. As well as claiming for the pay you are owed, I would also put in a claim for constructive dismissal, as you’ve effectively been made redundant (i.e. it wasn’t your choice to leave, but you had to as you weren’t being paid correctly). I’ve no doubt in normal times the WRC would throw the book at them, though they may act more leniently in present circumstances.

It may take some time, but you should end up with getting your back-pay restored. There is a good chance too that you will also get a redundancy payment and/or further compensation for the loss of your job.

Please do all of this. It is intensely annoying for us as an employer trying to survive and do the right things to know that we are competing with others who are abusing the system and acting illegally, giving them an unfair advantage. That in addition to exploiting vulnerable people who can ill afford to lose their jobs in the current environment.

I wish you all the best.

https://workplacerelations.ie/en/complaints_disputes/

Have to say I admire your post, emphaty is something lacking in all of this, your employees lucky to have you.

Dempo1

PickYourName wrote: »

Sorry to hear that, but the problem isn’t with the TWSS scheme, it’s the way it’s being abused by people like your employer.

The TWSS has been absolutely critical to us. Without it, we would not have been able to re-open; we would have had to make all our employees redundant (about 20 people); we would not be trading and gradually paying off our suppliers with what we owe them, which in turn is keeping them in business.

However, it is very clear from you and others that it is being badly abused by some.

The good news is that by resigning, the balance of power in the relationship between you and your employer has completely changed as you are no longer dependent on them for a living. If I were you, I would request them to pay all monies owed to you. Make this clear that this includes any shortfall in what you should have been paid for the hours worked than if you were paid at your full rate, together with any holiday pay owed. Do this in writing, so there is a record of it.

If they don’t respond with all back-pay owed within a reasonable time, and assuming they don’t, I would then take a complaint to the Workplace Relations Commission. This is very straightforward. As well as claiming for the pay you are owed, I would also put in a claim for constructive dismissal, as you’ve effectively been made redundant (i.e. it wasn’t your choice to leave, but you had to as you weren’t being paid correctly). I’ve no doubt in normal times the WRC would throw the book at them, though they may act more leniently in present circumstances.

It may take some time, but you should end up with getting your back-pay restored. There is a good chance too that you will also get a redundancy payment and/or further compensation for the loss of your job.

Please do all of this. It is intensely annoying for us as an employer trying to survive and do the right things to know that we are competing with others who are abusing the system and acting illegally, giving them an unfair advantage. That in addition to exploiting vulnerable people who can ill afford to lose their jobs in the current environment.

I wish you all the best.

https://workplacerelations.ie/en/complaints_disputes/

A very nice and sincere response and I like it. Empathy is something lacking in all of this and I've been struck at the vitreole to be found across boards in recent weeks.

Your business lucky to have you

PickYourName

bigboss1986 wrote: »

Thanks @PickYourName

I will do that.Thanks for the tip.All the best with you business as well.

As for TWSS i belive most employers are genuine and I know personally 2 wich wouldnt survive without it however my current /former is abusing it big time.Two people already refused to come back to work and are happy to sit at home even with reduced rate of PUP/JB.Im not saying its good either as money comes from work not from Social Welfare but I cant blame them

One thing to keep in mind is that if you do end up taking a case to the WRC, it will almost certainly help your ex-colleagues as well as they’d probably do a wider investigation.

Normally, my sympathies would be with employers, particularly at the moment as it is incredibly tough through no fault of their own. It’s very hard to sit back and watch possibly a lifetime’s work disappear in front of you (we’re only going a few years). However, expecting employees to pay it and exploiting them is a step too far, apart from the illegality.

No harm in taking a look at the following, too, and using it as further ammunition if you do make a case: they almost certainly have breached other rights too as something that serious can’t be excused as an oversight or not knowing.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/

Best of luck!

shatners bassoon

PickYourName wrote: »

You don't even need to do that - just pay the extra and apply tapering correctly.

The options around public holidays are clear enough, as are the rules of the TWSS. I think the question is coming from a place of wanting one's cake and eating it.

I don't think that's fair at all.

TWSS leaves employers in a lot of cases unable pay staff in full without losing the whole of the subsidy, which is I assume what will happen here if the employer 'just pays the extra'.

The structure of the new scheme makes far more sense to me, although the proof will be in the pudding...

MildThing84

shatners bassoon wrote: »

I don't think that's fair at all.

TWSS leaves employers in a lot of cases unable pay staff in full without losing the whole of the subsidy, which is I assume what will happen here if the employer 'just pays the extra'.

The structure of the new scheme makes far more sense to me, although the proof will be in the pudding...

Agreed.