Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

MildThing84

Radharc na Sleibhte wrote: »

Could somebody answer me this, if I have an employee that does 12hrs work at 12€ an hour they are due €144 (weekend staff), so if I give them another hours work the subsidy kicks in? So obviously it would be madness to not give that girl 13hrs work?

That's my understanding!

Tow

MildThing84 wrote: »

Has anybody had any trouble registering for the new scheme?

There are problems with tax agents registering their clients. If you are registering yourself it should work, providing you have a current Tax Clearance Certificate.

Seve OB

Radharc na Sleibhte wrote: »

Could somebody answer me this, if I have an employee that does 12hrs work at 12€ an hour they are due €144 (weekend staff), so if I give them another hours work the subsidy kicks in? So obviously it would be madness to not give that girl 13hrs work?

Nothing to stop you paying her a few quid top up, let’s call it a bonus!

irishrover99

Sorry if this has been asked before. If your company comes off the scheme, can they go back on it again if needed.

collsoft

Yes, you can re-register and start using the scheme again.

However, you would not be able to make any claims for the period in which you were de-registered.

irishrover99 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before. If your company comes off the scheme, can they go back on it again if needed.

Green Mile

Radharc na Sleibhte wrote: »

Could somebody answer me this, if I have an employee that does 12hrs work at 12€ an hour they are due €144 (weekend staff), so if I give them another hours work the subsidy kicks in? So obviously it would be madness to not give that girl 13hrs work?

You a can pay 8% holiday pay (which they’d be entitled to anyway (with her agreement)) to increase the gross and qualify for the ewss payment.

Seve OB

OK i must be going daft or something
does anyone know how to register for this EWSS?

All i can read is that you register through ROS.
But when I log into ROS I cannot find any guidance as to how or where to proceed.

help please

tina1040

Seve OB wrote: »

OK i must be going daft or something
does anyone know how to register for this EWSS?

All i can read is that you register through ROS.
But when I log into ROS I cannot find any guidance as to how or where to proceed.

help please

I had the same problem. They didn't make it obvious like the TWSS.
Go to Manage Tax Registrations and scroll down to select EWSS. I haven't gone any further. I'll get back to it later this week but it was bugging me that I couldn't find it.

Dec2020

Does anyone know if the EWSS appears on payslips like the TWSS?

Seve OB

tina1040 wrote: »

I had the same problem. They didn't make it obvious like the TWSS.
Go to Manage Tax Registrations and scroll down to select EWSS. I haven't gone any further. I'll get back to it later this week but it was bugging me that I couldn't find it.

just got an answer off the phone...... at last!

yea, hidden away, yer man laughed, he is getting tons of calls about same

so as you say
manage tax registrations
3rd from bottom, Employment Wage Subsidy Scheme, click register
then you just have to confirm ER tax no and click submit, very simple really..... if you can find it!

jammiedodgers

Dec2020 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the EWSS appears on payslips like the TWSS?

No it won't.

Employers should not include the EWSS ‘Other Payment’ details on the payslip they provide
to the employee.

Page 10 of the guidelines

tina1040

Dec2020 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the EWSS appears on payslips like the TWSS?

No. Payslips should look normal to employees.

If you don't know this, you really should read the Revenue guidance on this to make sure you are familiar with the process. I wouldn't be relying on Boards to answer that question. It's fundamental to the operation of the EWSS.

jammiedodgers

tina1040 wrote: »

No. Payslips should look normal to employees.

If you don't know this, you really should read the Revenue guidance on this to make sure you are familiar with the process. I wouldn't be relying on Boards to answer that question. It's fundamental to the operation of the EWSS.

It's possible the poster is asking from an employee's perspective.

tina1040

jammiedodgers wrote: »

It's possible the poster is asking from an employee's perspective.

A fair point!
I had heard of a few people doing payroll who had no understanding of the mathematics of the TWSS and so I feel it's dangerous for those people to rely solely on a forum such as this without reading the official guidance and consulting with accountants, and using a forum for clarification.

kmrm

Seve OB wrote: »

So wrong.
If I was in the position where my employer was going to pick up the tax bill, first thing I would do would be shift ALL my credits and cut off over to the wife.
Doing that could actually make you money and would be one way to shove it up their ass.

Poster who said about the payroll staff not knowing the difference, could not necessarily be that. Maybe the just do payroll, rather than being payroll staff as such have little to no understanding. Alternatively it could just be direct instructions from the employer.

Either way, so many are making mistakes, and I think a lot of them (probably most) actually believe they are doing nothing wrong. A few chancers out there no doubt.

So am I right in thinking the difference say in wages from the covid relief and subsidy offset is going to my employer then and not the revenue as we are being told?

mea_k

How does employer prove they have loss within business. I'm now getting wage subsidy for months.
I wanted to apply for mortgage but that won't happen, because of this scheme.. Company I work for has purchased another company for couple of million. Like how can you purchase another company whilst claiming wage subsidy for employees.
It's getting redicilous, none of my colleagues can go for loans if needs to be or anything.

radharc

mea_k wrote: »

How does employer prove they have loss within business. I'm now getting wage subsidy for months.
I wanted to apply for mortgage but that won't happen, because of this scheme.. Company I work for has purchased another company for couple of million. Like how can you purchase another company whilst claiming wage subsidy for employees.
It's getting redicilous, none of my colleagues can go for loans if needs to be or anything.

The TWSS is drawing to a close at the end of the month, the good news is that the replacement scheme won’t appear on payslips so shouldn’t impact future loan applications.

silent_spark

kmrm wrote: »

So am I right in thinking the difference say in wages from the covid relief and subsidy offset is going to my employer then and not the revenue as we are being told?

I'm not sure what 'subsidy offset' is. The two lines on your payslip should be something that looks like "GovC-19Sub" and if you are in receipt of an employer top up, another line with whatever your normal (pre-covid) line is "Salary" "Hourly18" etc.

PickYourName

je551e wrote: »

Reply from employer :

“We did not reduce your salary and your take home pay is the same. While the subsidy is being applied to your salary, your gross pay on your payslip will not be displayed the same and the Revenue and our payroll provider have explained that there is no difference between your Gross & Net pay and pay is deemed as 'Real Time' pay. Your take home pay is unaffected and if you are on a week1 basis you should not have any negative impact when the Revenue reviews are carried out at the end of the year. ”

[I know this was posted a few days ago, but only just seen it]

That quote is grade A BS: it makes no sense whatsoever. It looks to me like someone knows what they are doing is wrong and deliberately putting up a load of smoke and mirrors to try and distract you from enquiring too much. I don't think the more benign explanation of just not understanding what they are supposed to do is credible: they just wouldn’t have come out with something like that, if that was the case.

It’s true your gross pay won’t be displayed the same, as there’s a requirement to show the subsidy as a separate amount. However, the gross amount must still be displayed: the subsidy plus any top-up amount is your gross. If that number has gone down from what it should be according to your contract, your pay has been cut, plain and simple. They can reduce your gross, but only with your agreement. If they are pretending they haven’t, they are reducing it without your agreement, which is not legal.

Your payslip must show your gross, any deductions (which may be negative) and your net amount. Ask them what each of these figures is.

Some of your gross – the wage subsidy bit - will be the same as the net as it is provided without tax being deducted. “Pay is deemed as ‘Real Time’ pay” – what on earth does that mean? I’d be curious to find out; it looks like meaningless jargon to me, designed to confuse

PickYourName

PickYourName wrote: »

It’s true your gross pay won’t be displayed the same, as there’s a requirement to show the subsidy as a separate amount. However, the gross amount must still be displayed: the subsidy plus any top-up amount is your gross. If that number has gone down from what it should be according to your contract, your pay has been cut, plain and simple. They can reduce your gross, but only with your agreement. If they are pretending they haven’t, they are reducing it without your agreement, which is not legal.

Your payslip must show your gross, any deductions (which may be negative) and your net amount. Ask them what each of these figures is.

There was a comment, since deleted, calling into question what I said here.

As references for payslip requirements, see:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/pay_and_employment/pay_slip.html

This in turn references the Payment of Wages Act, 1991:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1991/act/25/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

This includes the requirement: “An employer shall give….an employee a statement in writing specifying clearly the gross amount of the wages payable to the employee and the nature and amount of any deduction therefrom”

The 1991 Act has not been repealed.

As for Revenue, it is clear that they consider the subsidy as part of the gross, referring frequently to “additional gross payments” in their Guidance on Operation of the TWSS document.

For example, “Sometimes referred to as ‘top-up payments’, an employer can choose to make an additional gross payment to the employee to fully or partially make up the difference between the amount provided by the subsidy scheme and the employee’s Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay”

Tow

Gross Pay is a vague term which means different things to different people, companies and government departments. Revenue redefined 'Gross Pay' when they brought in PAYE Modernisation, a couple of years ago. They give details here, but to be honest it could be improved. e.g. section 3.4 of the Employers Guide is titled 'What pay includes', 'What gross pay includes' would be better. It also says 'Pay during illness', where 'Pay from Employer during illness' is better, as payments from DEASP sent to the Employer rather than direct to the Employee should not be included in Gross Pay. etc

For the purpose of payroll (Revenue), the TWSS Subsidy was paid to the employees Net and should not be included in Revenue's definition of Gross Pay, which is a field uploaded to ROS in each Payroll Submission. 'Additional gross payments' (aka Top Ups) are included in 'Gross Pay' and this is the figure Revenue use for 'Tapering' the Subsidy paid back to the Employer. If an Employer included the TWSS Wage Subsidy in 'Gross Pay' they will hear about it from Revenue, if they have not already done so. Some payroll software does not print Revenue's definition of 'Gross Pay' on their payslips, others call it Revenue Gross Pay, PMOD Gross Pay or Gross Pay for PAYE Modernisation etc. However, you can check your Revenue 'Gross Pay' by logging onto MyAccount/ROS and drilling down on a Payslip/Item.

Seve OB

Tow wrote: »

Gross Pay is a vague term which means different things to different people, companies and government departments.

I disagree, it is not vague at all, gross pay means pay before any deductions.
if you don't know what Gross pay means, then you shouldn't be working in accounting or payroll.

Seve OB

Anyway, back to subsidies.

With regards to the TWSS, my understanding was that only one subsidy could be paid per employee, so if an employee had 2 or even 3 jobs, then only one employer could avail of the subsidy or it could be split between employers. Is this correct?

Now I think this changes with the EWSS and each employer can claim a full subsidy for all qualifying employees, regardless if other employers are also claiming subsidy. Is this correct?

PickYourName

Tow wrote: »

Gross Pay is a vague term which means different things to different people, companies and government departments. Revenue redefined 'Gross Pay' when they brought in PAYE Modernisation, a couple of years ago. They give details here, but to be honest it could be improved. e.g. section 3.4 of the Employers Guide is titled 'What pay includes', 'What gross pay includes' would be better. It also says 'Pay during illness', where 'Pay from Employer during illness' is better, as payments from DEASP sent to the Employer rather than direct to the Employee should not be included in Gross Pay. etc

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. The references you provide say what gross pay is (How is "Gross pay is the employee’s pay of any kind" vague?). If you want to be overly pedantic, you could insist on "pay from employer" every time the word "pay" is used, but why would you do that? what point are you trying to make?

Tow wrote: »

For the purpose of payroll (Revenue), the TWSS Subsidy was paid to the employees Net and should not be included in Revenue's definition of Gross Pay, which is a field uploaded to ROS in each Payroll Submission. 'Additional gross payments' (aka Top Ups) are included in 'Gross Pay' and this is the figure Revenue use for 'Tapering' the Subsidy paid back to the Employer. If an Employer included the TWSS Wage Subsidy in 'Gross Pay' they will hear about it from Revenue, if they have not already done so. Some payroll software does not print Revenue's definition of 'Gross Pay' on their payslips, others call it Revenue Gross Pay, PMOD Gross Pay or Gross Pay for PAYE Modernisation etc. However, you can check your Revenue 'Gross Pay' by logging onto MyAccount/ROS and drilling down on a Payslip/Item.

You seem to be referring to the use of a particular field in information provided to Revenue from employers. Given the way this was introduced I think it completely understandable that something labelled “Gross pay” is now being used for “Additional Gross Pay”: it doesn’t change the definition of what Gross pay means.

As for payslips, Revenue have made it clear how the wage subsidy amount should be displayed: “The employer must include the subsidy as part of the employees’ wages and show the amount of the subsidy paid to the employee on the employee’s payslip. This should be labelled as "GovC19 WageSub" on the payslip.” In other words, the subsidy is part of pay, which according to Revenue’s definition is part of Gross Pay. The fact that gross pay is reported to revenue in two parts - the subsidy amount and any top-up/additional gross amount - doesn't change the fact of what it is.

The relevance is that people's contracts specify pay as a gross amount. It doesn't matter that it's made up of different parts, regardless of what they are called or how they are uploaded to Revenue by the employer.

Tow

Seve OB wrote: »

Now I think this changes with the EWSS and each employer can claim a full subsidy for all qualifying employees, regardless if other employers are also claiming subsidy. Is this correct?

Yes. In TWSS Phase II Revenue gave one subsidy per person (employee) divided between employments. With EWSS the subsidy is to the employer, so the full subsidy is given.

collsoft

Hi Seve_OB,

I have to say in my experience of dealing with people running payroll on a daily basis there is actually a lot of confusion about what Gross Pay is.

The fact of the matter is that what most people consider as Gross Pay today is actually what we would now call "PAY For Income Tax"

So for may people that is after their pension deductions etc.

However, one thing that goes completely over many peoples heads are things like salary sacrifices for things like the Bike to Work Scheme or Tax Saver Travel tickets, because in those cases you are actually entering into a contractual arrangement to reduce your salary in leu of some other kind of recompense.

All I am saying is that what Revenue call Gross Pay for TWSS or EWSS is not always exactly what the Payroll Operator or Employee thinks of as their "Gross Pay"

And there is an awful lot of confusion out there about Gross Pay

Seve OB wrote: »

I disagree, it is not vague at all, gross pay means pay before any deductions.
if you don't know what Gross pay means, then you shouldn't be working in accounting or payroll.

kennethsmyth

I also disagree, there is gross pay, gross taxable pay and net pay. If a payroll employee does not know The difference between the three of them they should not be working in payroll as they are either not qualified or trained to do so.

collsoft

Thats all fair enough.

But the simple fact of the matter is that very many people processing Payroll do not know the difference between Gross Pay, Pay for Income Tax, Pay for USC, Pay for PRSI EE and Pay for PRSI ER.

What is referred to as Gross Pay today for EWSS and TWSS is actually a new Revenue definition introduced on 1st January 2019.

It is not the same thing that was reported on your P35 in 2018.

TOW is correct in what he said.

I'm sure most of the people following this thread know their arse from their elbow in Payroll.

Thats great, but the fact of the matter is that a very large number of people who process wages week to week do not.

There are around 190k employers in Ireland, and just over half of them have 5 or less employees.

In fact the average number of employees per employer is just over 2.

Do you think that these employers know the ins and outs of Payroll? They do not.

Are they paying their accountant to run their payroll week to week? Most are not - they can't afford to.

A very large number of employers are running their payroll themselves, and the have not had any formal training, and they are not aware of most of the requirements under the rules and regulations.

Most businesses are small, and their main concern is focusing on their work. Payroll is an admin task that doesn't do anything to bring in money.

So most small businesses spend 15 or 20 minutes a week doing their payroll, and they don't know and don't care what gross pay is.

All that matters to them is how much money they need to have in the bank on Friday to pay the wages. Simple as that.

That is the reality

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I also disagree, there is gross pay, gross taxable pay and net pay. If a payroll employee does not know The difference between the three of them they should not be working in payroll as they are either not qualified or trained to do so.

collsoft

Hi PickYourName,

OK, so I am going to apologise in advance in case I have misunderstood your post.

If I have understood your message it seems like you are saying that "GovC19 WageSub" on the payslip is part of gross pay.

Specifically you said that “The employer must include the subsidy as part of the employees’ wages and show the amount of the subsidy paid to the employee on the employee’s payslip. This should be labelled as "GovC19 WageSub" on the payslip. n other words, the subsidy is part of pay, which according to Revenue’s definition is part of Gross Pay."

If you have reported the TWSS subsidy as "Gross Pay" on your submissions to Revenue then you are in for a really big surprise in the TWSS reconcillation process which is kicking off at the end of September.

TWSS is not part of Gross Pay, it is a net payment to the employee.

If you have reported TWSS to Revenue as Gross Pay then they will taper your subsidy because you will have paid more than is allowed.

TWSS is not pay.

TWSS is a direct payment paid by the government to the employee through their employer.

The reason that there is explicit instructions to show it on the payslip with a tag of "GovC19 WageSub" is so that an employee is aware ofbwherevit came from.

As has been discussed many time on this thread, any employer trying to pass this payment off as Pay is in trouble. It is not the same as your pay in your contract of employment.

Revenue have been telling us (payroll software developers) about the problems of employers reporting TWSS as Gross Pay, and that it is incorrect to do so.

So if I have misunderstood your post I'm sorry. But if you are trying to say that TWSS payments are part of Gross Pay then I need to tell you that you are completely wrong, and anybody reading this needs to take care.

PickYourName wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. The references you provide say what gross pay is (How is "Gross pay is the employee’s pay of any kind" vague?). If you want to be overly pedantic, you could insist on "pay from employer" every time the word "pay" is used, but why would you do that? what point are you trying to make?



You seem to be referring to the use of a particular field in information provided to Revenue from employers. Given the way this was introduced I think it completely understandable that something labelled “Gross pay” is now being used for “Additional Gross Pay”: it doesn’t change the definition of what Gross pay means.

As for payslips, Revenue have made it clear how the wage subsidy amount should be displayed: “The employer must include the subsidy as part of the employees’ wages and show the amount of the subsidy paid to the employee on the employee’s payslip. This should be labelled as "GovC19 WageSub" on the payslip.” In other words, the subsidy is part of pay, which according to Revenue’s definition is part of Gross Pay. The fact that gross pay is reported to revenue in two parts - the subsidy amount and any top-up/additional gross amount - doesn't change the fact of what it is.

The relevance is that people's contracts specify pay as a gross amount. It doesn't matter that it's made up of different parts, regardless of what they are called or how they are uploaded to Revenue by the employer.

collsoft

Yes that is correct.

The bast way to look at TWSS vs EWSS is that TWSS was essentially a payment to the employee.

If an employee had multiple jobs his total subsidy entitlement was split between them.

Any money paid to an employer under TWSS had to be paid in full to the employee - thays why Revenue have been asking for payslips and bank statements.

However under EWSS it is a subsidy to the employer, and its value depends on what you are paying the employee.

It is not a payment to the employee. The employer can do whatever he likes with it, its not an outgoing payment.

Therefore, if an employer has 5 different jobs, and earns €155 in each of them, then each employer can claim €151.50 per week for that employee - no problem

Seve OB wrote: »

Anyway, back to subsidies.

With regards to the TWSS, my understanding was that only one subsidy could be paid per employee, so if an employee had 2 or even 3 jobs, then only one employer could avail of the subsidy or it could be split between employers. Is this correct?

Now I think this changes with the EWSS and each employer can claim a full subsidy for all qualifying employees, regardless if other employers are also claiming subsidy. Is this correct?