Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

The_Chap

sixskittles wrote: »

Hi everyone, this thread has been such a great help the last few months, thanks to you all. I'm just wondering if anyone submitted a spreadsheet to avail of the EWSS sweepback for employees that did not qualify for TWSS? I think the deadline was the 5th of September but I don't see any guidance as to exactly what information revenue require.

They haven’t issued the csv file template yet, latest was 7th Sept it will be available

Qprmeath

Qprmeath wrote: »

Employer has pretty much confirmed we will only get paid for our hours worked. This is clearly a scheme to safeguard employers not employees. The company gets the majority of their wages paid while we be better off on the PUP scheme. Also social welfare will be overrun with people trying to claim supports.

Apologies last moan on this. EWSS totally different than TWSS. Supposedly aimed at keeping people in jobs. Should be stipulated staff should be kept on enough hours to make it worthwhile working.

whatawaster

Do we know if Revenue will be moving everyone back onto a cumulative basis now the scheme is over?

Or is it something people should request themselves?

I know many/most will go into an immediate tax refund position if they go back on a cumulative basis. (I know this refund will just increase the level of tax underpayment that will need to be clawed back in 2021/2022)

Pistachio19

whatawaster wrote: »

Do we know if Revenue will be moving everyone back onto a cumulative basis now the scheme is over?

Or is it something people should request themselves?

I know many/most will go into an immediate tax refund position if they go back on a cumulative basis. (I know this refund will just increase the level of tax underpayment that will need to be clawed back in 2021/2022)

I asked this a couple of pages back and collsoft has said employees coming off TWSS will be kept on Week1 until year end. It makes sense I suppose so as not to mess any further with refunds and future tax owed.

collsoft

As The_Chap mentioned, Revenue will be publishing the CSV file for mat for this early next week - not exactly on the 7th, but that is possible.

But, the process to upload this list onto ROS will not be available until 15th September.

So you wont be able to send the list to Revenue before that.

You can however get it ready to send when ROS is updated.

sixskittles wrote: »

Hi everyone, this thread has been such a great help the last few months, thanks to you all. I'm just wondering if anyone submitted a spreadsheet to avail of the EWSS sweepback for employees that did not qualify for TWSS? I think the deadline was the 5th of September but I don't see any guidance as to exactly what information revenue require.

whatawaster

Pistachio19 wrote: »

I asked this a couple of pages back and collsoft has said employees coming off TWSS will be kept on Week1 until year end. It makes sense I suppose so as not to mess any further with refunds and future tax owed.

Makes sense, though some may take the view that they would rather have refunds in their hands now and pay a little extra tax over the next 1/2 years.

The_Chap

Had response direct from Revenue today, they expect the deadline for the sweepback to be extended already as they don’t have visibility of when the upload facility will even be in place

So the propaganda does not mirror the actual situation, does this even surprise anyone lol

PickYourName

There seem to be some odd anomalies/potential abuses of the EWSS.

Consider Company A employs Anne at €12/hour for a 40-hour week (i.e. €480), and company B employs Brian at the same rate.
Anne gets €480/week, Brian gets €480/week, total cost to company A is €277/week (€480, less €203 subsidy), total cost to company B is €277/week and cost to state/taxpayer is €406/week.

Now, company A puts Anne on part-time work and company B puts Brian on part-time work. Company A then offers Brian a part-time job and Company B offers Anne a part time job, so each of them is working 20-hours with both companies.

Now: Anne still gets €480/week (half each from company A and company , Brian still gets €480/week, but the total cost to company A has dropped to €74/week (€480, less two €203 subsidies, one for each employee), and that for company B is also €74/week. The cost to state/taxpayer is now €812/week (as four rather than two subsidies are being paid).

What am I missing?

Qprmeath

PickYourName wrote: »

There seem to be some odd anomalies/potential abuses of the EWSS.

Consider Company A employs Anne at €12/hour for a 40-hour week (i.e. €480), and company B employs Brian at the same rate.
Anne gets €480/week, Brian gets €480/week, total cost to company A is €277/week (€480, less €203 subsidy), total cost to company B is €277/week and cost to state/taxpayer is €406/week.

Now, company A puts Anne on part-time work and company B puts Brian on part-time work. Company A then offers Brian a part-time job and Company B offers Anne a part time job, so each of them is working 20-hours with both companies.

Now: Anne still gets €480/week (half each from company A and company , Brian still gets €480/week, but the total cost to company A has dropped to €74/week (€480, less two €203 subsidies, one for each employee), and that for company B is also €74/week. The cost to state/taxpayer is now €812/week (as four rather than two subsidies are being paid).

What am I missing?

Or could a company spread a 3 day fortnight over 2 weeks and get paid €203 for both weeks?

Kewreeuss

It's not about Ann and Brian, it' s about two separate employers trying to pay their part-time staff.
Ann and Brian don't care as long as they get paid, having been made part-time and lucky to get another part-time job to keep their wages up.
if you go looking for flaws, you'll find them. Nothing's perfect

PickYourName

[PHP][/PHP]

Kewreeuss wrote: »

It's not about Ann and Brian, it' s about two separate employers trying to pay their part-time staff.
Ann and Brian don't care as long as they get paid, having been made part-time and lucky to get another part-time job to keep their wages up.
if you go looking for flaws, you'll find them. Nothing's perfect

I'm not "looking for flaws", just pointing out anomalies. I’d say they are almost inevitable, regardless of what rules you put in place.

Another one: if an employer has 10 staff on €13/hour and has them all on one 8-hour day/week, it’ll cost them €1,040. If the employer has them on two 8-hour days/week, their wage bill drops to €50, three days/week is €1,090 and so on.

I’m sure there are others. I’m equally sure that some will seek to exploit them in ways that aren’t necessarily in employees’ interests and that confer advantages over competitors who are unwilling or unable to do the same, even if they are also using the scheme.

Irishdreamer

PickYourName wrote: »

There seem to be some odd anomalies/potential abuses of the EWSS.

Consider Company A employs Anne at €12/hour for a 40-hour week (i.e. €480), and company B employs Brian at the same rate.
Anne gets €480/week, Brian gets €480/week, total cost to company A is €277/week (€480, less €203 subsidy), total cost to company B is €277/week and cost to state/taxpayer is €406/week.

Now, company A puts Anne on part-time work and company B puts Brian on part-time work. Company A then offers Brian a part-time job and Company B offers Anne a part time job, so each of them is working 20-hours with both companies.

Now: Anne still gets €480/week (half each from company A and company , Brian still gets €480/week, but the total cost to company A has dropped to €74/week (€480, less two €203 subsidies, one for each employee), and that for company B is also €74/week. The cost to state/taxpayer is now €812/week (as four rather than two subsidies are being paid).

What am I missing?

I'm nearly positive that Revenue have used an example similar to yours in a webinar/zoom call recently. From what I remember, they said that companies are not to reduce staff hours & hire other people to then make up these hours. Also companies are not to fire any employees who are full time in order to hire two part time employees to cover the job. Revenue will be looking for discrepancies in the current/future payroll versus previous payroll. It won't take them long to figure it out if the system flags it.

PickYourName

Irishdreamer wrote: »

I'm nearly positive that Revenue have used an example similar to yours in a webinar/zoom call recently. From what I remember, they said that companies are not to reduce staff hours & hire other people to then make up these hours. Also companies are not to fire any employees who are full time in order to hire two part time employees to cover the job. Revenue will be looking for discrepancies in the current/future payroll versus previous payroll. It won't take them long to figure it out if the system flags it.

That's all very well, and I wouldn't expect anything different.

However, in the real world (as opposed to how Revenue imagine it to be), it’s quite possible to get into a position that on the face of it could break any such rule.

An example:

We’ve had to reduce everyone’s hours due to the falloff in business. Not surprisingly, some have taken on second jobs. Now suppose business picks up and we want to increase someone’s hours, but they refuse. What do we do? Sack them and get someone else for longer hours? Hire in someone else for the extra hours? If we do the latter, that’s exactly the scenario I described: we’ve split one full-time job into two part-time ones.

There are any number of such potential landmines we could step on. It’s hard enough trying to stay afloat at the moment without the stress of worrying about that.

tina1040

A part time weekly paid worker normally earning less than €151 per week has been put on increased hours every second week and every other week off. My question is about PRSI contributions for the year for dental treatment and eye tests (for others this could affect future maternity benefit entitlements). Will there be no prsi contribution for the weeks off?

Seve OB

tina1040 wrote: »

A part time weekly paid worker normally earning less than €151 per week has been put on increased hours every second week and every other week off. My question is about PRSI contributions for the year for dental treatment and eye tests (for others this could affect future maternity benefit entitlements). Will there be no prsi contribution for the weeks off?

correct

tbh, i think it would be just easier to pay the person a little more each week! it aint gonna cost the company money

je551e

The_Chap wrote: »

Had response direct from Revenue today, they expect the deadline for the sweepback to be extended already as they don’t have visibility of when the upload facility will even be in place

So the propaganda does not mirror the actual situation, does this even surprise anyone lol

Anyone know when the file is to be made available?

Thanks

collsoft

Revenue published the sweepback csv file format and a guide on their website yesterday evening at

https://revenue.ie/en/corporate/communications/stimulus/employment-wage-subsidy-scheme.aspx#sweepback

There will be a specific facility on ROS to upload this file for Revenue to process (see the guide)

This upload facility will be available on ROS from next Tuesday 15th September, and it will be available for one month.

I think employers can upload multiple csv files in one go, but you need to try and get it right the first time. You will be allowed to use the upload facility a second time, but not a third - im not 100% sure about this but try and get this right the first time if possible

je551e wrote: »

Anyone know when the file is to be made available?

Thanks

Nibs05

So we’ve been working throughout the pandemic, we were put into the Covid payment since March, we’ve been working 3 days a fortnightly
Company did not not pay us for working, starting 1st September the company switched to EWSS and the company are now paying us the 3 days per fortnight.
We have not received any payment from EWSS scheme only 3 days pay, where does that leave us ? Claim short term working ?

Seve OB

Nibs05 wrote: »

So we’ve been working throughout the pandemic, we were put into the Covid payment since March, we’ve been working 3 days a fortnightly
Company did not not pay us for working, starting 1st September the company switched to EWSS and the company are now paying us the 3 days per fortnight.
We have not received any payment from EWSS scheme only 3 days pay, where does that leave us ? Claim short term working ?

You worked 3 days and got paid for 3 days.
The EWSS has nothing to do with you.
Your employer needs to fill out forms for you to claim short time

Nibs05

Seve OB wrote: »

You worked 3 days and got paid for 3 days.
The EWSS has nothing to do with you.
Your employer needs to fill out forms for you to claim short time

Sorry I should of said the company stated they were moving to the EWSS scheme starting the 1st September, neither HR or DSP know what’s going on and living off 125 euro a week isn’t gonna work.

I am going to be made redundant next month. Company has listed Covid as 1 of the reasons for the redundancies.
Would I be going on Covid payment or Welfare?

Tow

Currently, EWSS for September will not be paid to you employer until after the 15 of October. Unfortunately there are a large number of 'zombie companies' being propped up by TWSS/EWSS. The initial switch over between the two schemes will put a lot of strain on them. If you are being paid for 3 days a Fortnight and this is what is reported to Revenue, then they may not even receive any EWSS for you. The lower Fortnightly Gross Pay cut off is €303.

You should be able to claim short time working from DEASP: https://www.gov.ie/en/service/c20e1b-short-time-work-support/

Archieboy13

I am going to be made redundant next month. Company has listed Covid as 1 of the reasons for the redundancies.
Would I be going on Covid payment or Welfare?

I am in a similar situation my employer laying off 50% of staff because of downturn in business due to COVID-19, yet none of the staff who lose their jobs because of COVID-19 will be entitled to the COVID-19 payment because the layoffs will take place after the 17th of September cut off point for new applications. How is it fair that someone laid off on the 16th of September is entitled to covid payment and someone laid off 2 days later on the 18th is not entitled to this payment. A lot of companies who tried to retain their staff with help from the wage subsidy scheme are now realising that their business are not going to return to normal this means people losing their jobs and denied covid payment because of the timing of job losses.

Qprmeath

Maybe it’s very hard for a scheme to suit everyone but there should be something different than the EWSS for sectors keeping people employed who have little or no work to offer employees.

Duke of Url

Qprmeath wrote: »

Maybe it’s very hard for a scheme to suit everyone but there should be something different than the EWSS for sectors keeping people employed who have little or no work to offer employees.

I think them companies will need to closedown if their business is no longer viable.

Seve OB

Duke of Url wrote: »

I think them companies will need to closedown if their business is no longer viable.

Agree.
You can’t keep flogging a dead horse

Qprmeath

Seve OB wrote: »

Agree.
You can’t keep flogging a dead horse

Company Im talking about made €385 million last year! Still viable and vital for the county’s economic future. I take the point ye have both made though. There is no point ploughing money into businesses that will shut when subsidies end completely.

Seve OB

Qprmeath wrote: »

Company Im talking about made €385 million last year! Still viable and vital for the county’s economic future. I take the point ye have both made though. There is no point ploughing money into businesses that will shut when subsidies end completely.

Last year is last year.
If their goose is cooked why should they continue to operate if making losses.

PickYourName

Deleted User wrote: »

I am going to be made redundant next month. Company has listed Covid as 1 of the reasons for the redundancies.
Would I be going on Covid payment or Welfare?

PUP closes to new applicants after Sept 17th.

Have you asked if the redundancy can be brought forward?

Archieboy13

PickYourName wrote: »

PUP closes to new applicants after Sept 17th.

Have you asked if the redundancy can be brought forward?

I think legally group redundancies have to go through a 30 day process . People laid off due to covid after the 17th only seem to be entitled to claim jobseekers. This cut off point seems really unfair ,people losing jobs after 17th getting abandoned by government, while a safety net of the COVID-19 payment provided for job losses before the 17th .