Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

PickYourName

Tow wrote: »

The simple answer is you cannot download the file, yet. Revenue now "hope" to have it the weekend 19/20 of December. I assume if they miss this deadline you are into next year.

Many thanks! Where did you get this information as a matter of interest?

Whoever responds to ROS MyEnquiries doesn't seem to have access to it. I've been going round in circles with them for weeks now trying to get an answer out of them. They seem incapable of figuring out what I'm talking about, despite me giving the reference and then text from their FAQ.

If what you say is correct - and I'm not suggesting it isn't - all they have to do is tell me and I can relax a bit until it is available, but as it stands we've alreday passed the deadline for ensuring the information we've provided is correct. It was a very manual process and I've no practical way of checking if it is or not.

Sorry for ranting......

collsoft

Hi PickYourName, I can confirm that wat TOW has said is correct - he is on the same Revenue calls that I am!!!!!

Originally Revenue were supposed to make this CSV file available to all employers in October, then it moved to November and now we are told it should be in December.

All of us payroll software developers were depending on that file to aid customers with their TWSS reporting.

Such a file provides a double check to the employer of where they stand with reporting.

Remember there are two reasons why you have to report the TWSS payments to Revenue;

1) So Revenue can calculate the amount of PAYE/USC that the employee owes

2) To recoup the amount of subsidy that was over paid to employers in March and April when Revenue paid a flat amount of €410 per week to employers.

Ideally the 1st item needs to be completed before end of this year so that Revenue can calculate each employee's tax liability.

The second item is not just as urgent and Revenue are going to allow until the end of Q1 2021 for it to be completed.

Revenue gave us an update a few days ago with where TWSS reporting is at over all.

In total the were about 6.4 million TWSS payments made.

90% of the payments made to employees have been reported to Revenue - however its proving to be rather slow to get the last 10% reported.

There are 5000 employers who have not reported anything to Revenue for TWSS (out of about 69K employers who were on the scheme)

Of the employers who have reported 78% are fully reported - the other 22% are partially reported. In many of these cases it might be just a couple of payslips that are missing, but until Revenue make the CSV report available its likely that these payslips will remain hidden.


Revenue are very well aware that employers cant complete their reporting until Revenue gives them something to work with. As long as you have made some attempt to report your TWSS payments you are ok.

The people who really need to worry are the 5K employers who have not done anything yet - Revenue will be chasing those guys up shortly!

PickYourName wrote: »

Many thanks! Where did you get this information as a matter of interest?

Whoever responds to ROS MyEnquiries doesn't seem to have access to it. I've been going round in circles with them for weeks now trying to get an answer out of them. They seem incapable of figuring out what I'm talking about, despite me giving the reference and then text from their FAQ.

If what you say is correct - and I'm not suggesting it isn't - all they have to do is tell me and I can relax a bit until it is available, but as it stands we've alreday passed the deadline for ensuring the information we've provided is correct. It was a very manual process and I've no practical way of checking if it is or not.

Sorry for ranting......

PickYourName

collsoft wrote: »

Hi PickYourName, I can confirm that wat TOW has said is correct - he is on the same Revenue calls that I am!!!!!

Many thanks for that!

It seems to be just a case of the right hand (of Revenue) not knowing what the left hand is doing.

Definitely a case of them making things difficult for themselves and for employers. It's crazy: there have been about a dozen messages exchanged between us, all of which presumably take time to read and answer, giving us all extra work fo no good reason. No doubt I'm not the only one asking this as well.

Anyway, thanks again!

collsoft

Hi All, there is a change to the eligibility criteria for the Employment Wage Subsidy Scheme (EWSS) that you need to be aware of - The reference period for the scheme is changing.

Under the current rules an employer must show that their turnover (or orders) for the period of 1st July 2020 to 31st December 2020 will have decreased by 30% or more compared to the same period in 2019 (i.e. 1st July 2019 - 31st December 2019)

The Finance Act 2020 which is currently going through the Dail at the moment changes this such that any employer using EWSS from 1st January 2021 needs to show that their turnover for the period 1st January 2021 to 30 June 2021 is 30% down compared to the same period in 2019 - i.e. 1st Jan 2019 to 30 June 2019

There are employers who may be eligible under the current rules who may not be eligible under the new rules from 1st January.

I must stress that this legislation is still in committee stage in the Dail, and until such time as the President signs it, it is not legal.

But I expect that this will be passed and enacted before 1st January.

So if you plan on using EWSS from 1st January you should start looking at your eligibility under the new rules.

For more information please refer to Page 94 on the "Finance Act 2020" available at

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2020/43/

Also, dont expect Revenue to update their EWSS guidance documentation until after the Act has been signed into law by the President

Radharc na Sleibhte

collsoft wrote: »

Hi All, there is a change to the eligibility criteria for the Employment Wage Subsidy Scheme (EWSS) that you need to be aware of - The reference period for the scheme is changing.

Under the current rules an employer must show that their turnover (or orders) for the period of 1st July 2020 to 31st December 2020 will have decreased by 30% or more compared to the same period in 2019 (i.e. 1st July 2019 - 31st December 2019)

The Finance Act 2020 which is currently going through the Dail at the moment changes this such that any employer using EWSS from 1st January 2021 needs to show that their turnover for the period 1st January 2021 to 30 June 2021 is 30% down compared to the same period in 2019 - i.e. 1st Jan 2019 to 30 June 2019

There are employers who may be eligible under the current rules who may not be eligible under the new rules from 1st January.

I must stress that this legislation is still in committee stage in the Dail, and until such time as the President signs it, it is not legal.

But I expect that this will be passed and enacted before 1st January.

So if you plan on using EWSS from 1st January you should start looking at your eligibility under the new rules.

For more information please refer to Page 94 on the "Finance Act 2020" available at

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2020/43/

Also, dont expect Revenue to update their EWSS guidance documentation until after the Act has been signed into law by the President

We are using collsoft. Blessed how easy you guys made all this. I sent them a correspondence as they actually owe me money. There were two new rehires and a mess up on their side with employer IDs in the RPN meant we never actually received the subsidy for the employees in question. They said they will sort it out when the reconciliation is done. We won’t see that money this side of Christmas so will we?

Qprmeath

Not sure if this is the right thread. Please advise or move?
During the TWSS how was holiday pay paid? Could your employer use the TWSS to pay your holiday pay?

PickYourName

collsoft wrote: »

Hi PickYourName, I can confirm that wat TOW has said is correct - he is on the same Revenue calls that I am!!!!!

Originally Revenue were supposed to make this CSV file available to all employers in October, then it moved to November and now we are told it should be in December.

They have at last acknowledged this to me (and apologised).

"Mid December" is what they are telling me (this was yesterday).

tina1040

I have run payslips for December monthly salaries and I did a tax calculation on a couple of employees with the total TWSS paid to them added back to gross to get the real gross. It's looking like they owe about €1800 between paye, usc and prsi.

Could this be correct? And how do I break it to them? They all know there will be tax due but this will be a shock.

Pistachio19

tina1040 wrote: »

I have run payslips for December monthly salaries and I did a tax calculation on a couple of employees with the total TWSS paid to them added back to gross to get the real gross. It's looking like they owe about €1800 between paye, usc and prsi.

Could this be correct? And how do I break it to them? They all know there will be tax due but this will be a shock.

I wouldn't tell them anything. I have no intentions of working out what our employees may or may not owe. They will find out from revenue what exactly they owe.

tina1040

Pistachio19 wrote: »

I wouldn't tell them anything. I have no intentions of working out what our employees may or may not owe. They will find out from revenue what exactly they owe.[/QUOTE

Almost all 10 employees here are long time, loyal employees and we feel a bit of responsibility and loyalty to them.

Tow

tina1040 wrote: »

Pistachio19 wrote: »

I wouldn't tell them anything. I have no intentions of working out what our employees may or may not owe. They will find out from revenue what exactly they owe.[/QUOTE

Almost all 10 employees here are long time, loyal employees and we feel a bit of responsibility and loyalty to them.

Around €2,000 sounds about right. Currently Revenue has no plans to start to reclaim it until at least 2022, and then over several years.

However, you can pay the employees tax and USC for them: https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/twss/employers-paying-employees-tax-liability.aspx But I would wait until you get your TWSS Reconciliation bill first.

The government is currently in 'we want no negative publicity mode'...

tina1040

There is going to be trouble in January with employees on €30k with no spare cash each month looking at payments of almost €40 per month for 4 years from 2022 to 2025. These employees were already about €80 down each month from April to August due to the calculation of AWNP for monthly salaries i.e. taking Jan and Feb and dividing by 9 weeks then x 52/12.
I understand the reasons and the whole idea of getting people paid is urgent situation but it's difficult to explain to people who heard on tv that they were getting 70% and a top up to net pay. Now we see how far far that actually happened.

Seve OB

I know this is totally the wrong place for this as its a question with nothing to do with the scheme, but plenty here will probably be in the same boat.
I'm running Sage Payroll Professional..... if it makes a difference.

Our working week ends on a Sunday but since PAYE modernisation it is always the pay date (the following Friday) which determines the period. Next week will be Week 52, Christmas Day. I have set the period date to the 24th as we will pay a day earlier.

But the same will happen the following week, 1st January, which should be week 1 of 2021. As we will be bringing the pay date forward, it should really be week 53 of 2020 paid on 31st December. I can't set a week 53 on our calendar.

What are people doing?
Just ignoring it and treating it as week 1 of 2021?

Tow

Seve OB wrote: »

Our working week ends on a Sunday but since PAYE modernisation it is always the pay date (the following Friday) which determines the period. Next week will be Week 52, Christmas Day. I have set the period date to the 24th as we will pay a day earlier.

Revenue:

Payments made in advance. ( Bank Holiday)
Employers must report employees’ pay to Revenue on or before the pay date. Where the pay date falls on a bank holiday, employers can make the funds available on the last banking day before the pay date but should still report the original pay date. If the normal pay date falls on 1 January 2021, which is a bank holiday, the employer can make the funds available on 31 December 2020 but must report the pay date as 1 January 2021 and use 2021 credits/rate bands. This is not a week 53 payment.

Seve OB

Tow wrote: »

Revenue:

nice one thanks TOW.
week 1 it is so

collsoft

Revenue have updated their EWSS Guide and published a new Employer notice regarding the changes to the EWSS eligibility period.

The guide can be downloaded at

https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/documents/ewss/ewss-guidelines.pdf

I have attached the Employer Notice to this post

PickYourName

collsoft wrote: »

Revenue have updated their EWSS Guide and published a new Employer notice regarding the changes to the EWSS eligibility period.

Many thanks for posting this, as I had not been aware of it (an email from Revenue saying it had been issued would be a help, no?).

I scanned through it last night and nearly had a heart attack. In the new “Anti abuse” section it has all sorts of dire warnings about entering into contrived arrangements, including paying employees for time not actually worked. This shifting of goalposts potentially exposed us very badly, as we’d been doing exactly that: we’d essentially continued to operate the EWSS in exactly the same way as the TWSS, paying over the subsidy and topping up for hours worked.

I note this morning however the statement:

“This does not extend to instances where eligible employers retain eligible employees during periods where they are not partially or wholly occupied, and pay them gross pay equivalent to what they would have received if they were to make a claim for the PUP”

My reading of this is we are OK, as in effect this is what we are doing: ensuring all employees get at least the PUP rate.

I’m just posting this in case any employees are in the same position; as I said, it nearly gave me a heart attack on initial reading the revised guidelines.

collsoft

In fairness I think Revenue will be pushing out the Employer Notice via ROS to all employers who are on EWSS, but sometimes these can get lost in the flurry of everything else that is going on.

Revenue gave the software providers notice when it was published so that we could deal with any queries on our helpdesk

PickYourName wrote: »

Many thanks for posting this, as I had not been aware of it (an email from Revenue saying it had been issued would be a help, no?).

I scanned through it last night and nearly had a heart attack. In the new “Anti abuse” section it has all sorts of dire warnings about entering into contrived arrangements, including paying employees for time not actually worked. This shifting of goalposts potentially exposed us very badly, as we’d been doing exactly that: we’d essentially continued to operate the EWSS in exactly the same way as the TWSS, paying over the subsidy and topping up for hours worked.

I note this morning however the statement:

“This does not extend to instances where eligible employers retain eligible employees during periods where they are not partially or wholly occupied, and pay them gross pay equivalent to what they would have received if they were to make a claim for the PUP”

My reading of this is we are OK, as in effect this is what we are doing: ensuring all employees get at least the PUP rate.

I’m just posting this in case any employees are in the same position; as I said, it nearly gave me a heart attack on initial reading the revised guidelines.

Kewreeuss

I know this isn't strictly the right place, but everyone here knows their stuff.
Would anyone have advice on how to calculate the public holiday pay for an employee who:
is on full time contract,
hourly paid,
works 4 over 6 days therefore not always on the public holiday day,
Hours are varied each week, but less now during Covid. Usually between 37-45 precovid.
Was laid off for 4 weeks but worked for the past three.
Would you use average over most recent three wks worked, or over 9 worked or over the full 13 wks?

Many thanks,

Seve OB

Question for you guys.
An employee is working for company A (2 days a week) and said company is claiming the EWSS.
EE is also claiming short time from DEASP getting 3 days on the scratcher.
EE gets offered another job (a second job, with no intention of leaving primary one), could be just 1 day a week, but possibly 2 for the initial month or so.

Second job would intend to claim EWSS also for the employee. It is my understanding that this is allowable. Anyone any experience of this or if it has caused any issues.

Can the employee still claim the unemployed days from the scratcher? And if so, how do they go about it because the forms have to be signed off by company A.

Seve OB

Related to above.

Company B actually is actually a group of 3 separate companies, pretty much same shareholders and directors, but no parent company or consolidation. Each company is a separate business, separate locations, separate payroll but administrative tasks are performed by a single office for them all.

As above, it is my understanding that employers may claim full EWSS for employees regardless if they are working for other companies. However I was wondering if there may be any issues here as there is clearly a close relationship between these three companies.

Job is in the office, would be genuinely working for each company. Can 3 subsidies be claimed?

tina1040

I would think you continue doing as before. I presume you sign off day worked for you in Company A. What the EE actually does on the other days would not be relevant to you. I haven't seen the form you are signing but it wouldn't expect you to know what the EE does when not at work at that company.





Your follow up post might make a difference!

Passageshark

Hi there I'm sorry Im not sure about where to post but this is the only place I could find any mention of it. The CRSS scheme - we applied shortly before Christmas for the six weeks in October and November and got acknowledgment of application but have yet to receive the much needed payment. Wondering has this happened anyone else or has something gone amiss with us... Thank you

PickYourName

Seve OB wrote: »

Related to above.

Company B actually is actually a group of 3 separate companies, pretty much same shareholders and directors, but no parent company or consolidation. Each company is a separate business, separate locations, separate payroll but administrative tasks are performed by a single office for them all.

As above, it is my understanding that employers may claim full EWSS for employees regardless if they are working for other companies. However I was wondering if there may be any issues here as there is clearly a close relationship between these three companies.

Job is in the office, would be genuinely working for each company. Can 3 subsidies be claimed?

The EWSS guidelines specifically warns against "Spreading contractual Gross Pay across a number of closely entwined companies to maximise a subsidy payable"

I would think the employer would be skating on some very thin ice if they were to claim an EWSS multiple times within such a group of connected companies, even if there was no overall group structure.

Note that the EWSS is claimed by and paid to the employer, the employee mightn't even know it's being claimed. In other words: an issue for the employer rather than the employee. Having said that, if I were the employee and knew this was going on, I'd be inclined to run a mile, as there's no telling what might happen.

Seve OB

tina1040 wrote: »

wouldn't expect you to know what the EE does when not at work at that company.!

I might be the employer, or at least the fella who does the wages for them
And I might be the employee ..........

Seve OB

PickYourName wrote: »

The EWSS guidelines specifically warns against "Spreading contractual Gross Pay across a number of closely entwined companies to maximise a subsidy payable"

I would think the employer would be skating on some very thin ice if they were to claim an EWSS multiple times within such a group of connected companies, even if there was no overall group structure.

Note that the EWSS is claimed by and paid to the employer, the employee mightn't even know it's being claimed. In other words: an issue for the employer rather than the employee. Having said that, if I were the employee and knew this was going on, I'd be inclined to run a mile, as there's no telling what might happen.

I think from some of my posts on this thread alone it’s probably obvious that this kind of thing is part of my line of work, but unfortunately the business I work in has been hit with a sledgehammer in the last year. So I guess it may well be possible that I know everything that is going on before it even happens and maybe I’m I’m just looking at possibilities to enhance my earnings but at the same time I also don’t want to steer any prospective employer down the wrong path............

Points noted though, thanks for that.

PickYourName

Seve OB wrote: »

I think from some of my posts on this thread alone it’s probably obvious that this kind of thing is part of my line of work, but unfortunately the business I work in has been hit with a sledgehammer in the last year. So I guess it may well be possible that I know everything that is going on before it even happens and maybe I’m I’m just looking at possibilities to enhance my earnings but at the same time I also don’t want to steer any prospective employer down the wrong path............

Points noted though, thanks for that.

Just to note that I've heard of Revenue looking for the return of a CRSS payment that was incorrectly made (they're dead right in this case, as there's no way the company claiming were entitled to it). I've no doubt they've started to do the same with the EWSS.

The revised guidelines I quoted from are notable for having an entire appendix given over the behaviours they consider fraudulent. The initial phase of shovelling cash out the door and asking questions later has obviously passed onto the asking questions phase.

If an employer thinks they are genuinely entitled to the EWSS but are at the risk of falling foul, they always have the option of getting an opinion from them beforehand, though my experience is they are slow in responding to any non-straightforward query at the moment.

Best of luck with whatever happens.

Seve OB

Remember the TWSS Rec which had to be done at the end of October?
I have a balance owing mainly due to early weeks where they were paying a flat rate.
I though there was supposed to be a follow up to that where they would give us a figure that we could compare to our own.
I haven't seen this come through or maybe I've missed something.
Anybody got anything on this?


On a side note, the pause on PAYE/PRSI demands, as in that you didn't have to pony up straight away..... is that interest free? I seem to recall it was but a colleague says otherwise.

Seve OB

Another Quickie
The EWSS basically consisted of a subsidy and a credit against Employer PRSI.
I know it is taxable, but I think that it is only the subsidy element which is taxable and the PRSI credit is not. Opinions please.

tina1040

Seve OB wrote: »

I might be the employer, or at least the fella who does the wages for them
And I might be the employee ..........

As the employee, whether or not the employer claims EWSS has nothing to do with you. Revenue will figure out what's to be paid to the employer.
I do wages for an employer and I don't check whether our part time staff have a second job or are claiming social welfare payments. That's what the payroll software linked with ROS is for. The RPN takes account of tax credits which take account of other employments and social welfare payments.