Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
The Chinese Big Lie
Options
Comments
-
LessOutragePlz wrote: »So let me bet this straight you're justification for China lying about the initial outbreak and covering it up is that other countries wouldn't haven't been able to react as quicker???
You can't be serious?
I don't think other countries would have lied about it to start with!
All this nonsense your talking about a smokescreen is just another way of shifting the focus away from the fact that this crisis would not have been as bad as it is now if China been honest from when the initial outbreak occured.
It's not that they lied per say. It's that their system of administration is incompetant when dealing with such matters. People are scared to tell the truth in the CCP if it goes against the stable narrative. They are undoubtedly an oppressive and authoritarian regime.
There is another story here though, a smokescreen; just as another poster pointed out. A screen saying China must have faked their numbers because the 1st world countries couldn't get this under control. I believe it comes from a sense of superiority. It's also a story that emerged last week; the day the US numbers overtook that of China.
The reason I feel compelled to argue this seemingly innocuous point is because it is important in how we handle this crisis. We should be looking to countries like China and South Korea and how they handled it(since they are ahead of us in the timeline and have handled it effectively). Not be calling them liars without any semblance of real proof.0 -
This is a well-known, and well-worn deflection tactic in the Chinese political tradition dating back the centuries to imperial times. When something goes wrong, the local official will always be made carry the can. Think if it as the emperor / party having a type of political papal infallibility.
天高皇帝远
Taiwan were sounding alarm bells about the transmissibility of the virus when the Chinese government were still denying community transmission. There was no way the cuddly creatures in Zhongnanhai didn't know.
The whistle blower outed them on the 31st of december and the virus details were sent around the world to labs within two weeks of that.
I just don't kid myself with the idea that western super heros would have absailed in and saved the day in December. I don't think this is hollywood. I have watched the utter shambles since and am slowly coming to the conclusion that we are fairly clueless in a crisis compared to the vast majoirty of east asia and south east asia...that is clear.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »coming to the conclusion that we are fairly clueless in a crisis compared to the vast majoirty of east asia and south east asia...that is clear.
That's the real story that is being smokescreened here. The ineptitude of them considering scientific literature is criminal. They had the most resources and were least prepared.0 -
That's the real story that is being smokescreened here. The ineptitude of them considering scientific literature is criminal. They had the most resources and were least prepared.
Yeah, it wasn't even news much until it hit Italy in a big way. It's as if the people over there are the deplorables.
I was watching James Cordon on TV last night showing all the amusing lockdown videos coming from Italy etc.. and i thought yeah, these are all just recycled versions of ones that was on Tictok 7 weeks earlier, wasn't worth a mention then, seems they were not funny then.
It has been very interesting to watch unfold.0 -
That's the real story that is being smokescreened here. The ineptitude of them considering scientific literature is criminal. They had the most resources and were least prepared.
The only smokescreen being used in this thread is by the 2 of ye using how Europe and the US handled this outbreak. To cover up the fact that China lied about the initial outbreak and covered it up which has inevitably led to more deaths and infections than if they had been honest front the beginning of all of this.0 -
Advertisement
-
cryptocurrency wrote: »The whistle blower outed them on the 31st of december and the virus details were sent around the world to labs within two weeks of that.
I just don't kid myself with the idea that western super heros would have absailed in and saved the day in December. I don't think this is hollywood. I have watched the utter shambles since and am slowly coming to the conclusion that we are fairly clueless in a crisis compared to the vast majoirty of east asia and south east asia...that is clear.
To nitpick, it was Taiwan who informed the WHO of h2h transmission in the 31st of December. The jig was up then for the CCP.
This isn't about notions of West v East in the least. It's a simple case of culpability and transparency.
I'm willing to criticize ham-fisted responses from Western governments, but for some reason, a lot of people are willing to provide cover for China's atrocious and reflexively secretive handling of the outbreak.
There's no points on offer for being woke where an authoritarian government is trying to claim political capital in a global pandemic that came from their country and allowed to get out of control because they were acting like potentates tend to do.0 -
LessOutragePlz wrote: »The only smokescreen being used in this thread is by the 2 of ye using how Europe and the US handled this outbreak. To cover up the fact that China lied about the initial outbreak and covered it up which has inevitably led to more deaths and infections than if they had been honest front the beginning of all of this.
You are still spouting that line. Lets look at the crisis in front of us all now. Are you inspired that these national governments have what it takes to deal with this or any other crisis down the road? I am not.
I think lots are looking like shambolic paper tigers. UK in particular stands out for me due to my connections there.0 -
To nitpick, it was Taiwan who informed the WHO of h2h transmission in the 31st of December. The jig was up then for the CCP.
This isn't about notions of West v East in the least. It's a simple case of culpability and transparency.
I'm willing to criticize ham-fisted responses from Western governments, but for some reason, a lot of people are willing to provide cover for China's atrocious and reflexively secretive handling of the outbreak.
There's no points on offer for being woke where an authoritarian government is trying to claim political capital in a global pandemic that came from their country and allowed to get out of control because they were acting like potentates tend to do.
nobody is trying to be woke, I have no like for the CCP but in fairness they Chinese people on the ground have dealt with it very impressively. The feedback from the expats inside China mustn't sit well with many who want to take down every single thing the people do there.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »You are still spouting that line. Lets look at the crisis in front of us all now. Are you inspired that these national governments have what it takes to deal with this or any other crisis down the road? I am not.
I think lots are looking like shambolic paper tigers. UK in particular stands out for me due to my connections there.
So that's it let's attack our own countries governments and health systems in a time of crisis like this?
And forget how and where this all started and forgot the fact if China had acted sooner this crisis would not have been as bad as it is now?0 -
LessOutragePlz wrote: »So that's it let's attack our own countries governments and health systems in a time of crisis like this?
And forget how and where this all started and forgot the fact if China had acted sooner this crisis would not have been as bad as it is now?
At what point do you plan to look at our own governments? You seem fairly focused on being sold that dummy early on and focusing on China.
You have to be delusional to think the showers that are trying to fix this in Europe and North America could have done a tap in China in December but sit on their hands and be out of ideas in their own countries by March.
That is the point I am trying to make.0 -
Advertisement
-
China purposely downplayed the severity of the virus and whilst restricting travel around China, criticised countries who wanted to ban flights coming from China. They, along with the WHO, claimed there was no evidence of the virus spreading from person to person. If you believe that the Communist Party of China is honest, then you are seriously deluded. Their current objective is to blame the West by pretending they have beaten the virus by reporting made up numbers and then criticising the response of the Western governments which were slow to bring in measures to control the virus.
The warnings coming from Italy when the virus got serious there were taken heed of. Remember the Italian doctors pleading with other nations to react fast. There were doctors in China that would have done this, but they were prevented by their government from doing so.
I lived in China for 18 years and still speak to Chinese people on a daily basis. I can tell you that China, or more accurately the CCP, is fighting a war against the West. The people of China are not allowed to oppose their government for fear of disappearing.
There are a huge number of wet markets in China, and it just happens to be the wet market 280 metres from the only research lab in China that was advertising for people to help with their research on a coronavirus in bats that they had recently discovered is transmissible from person to person. So who is patient zero in this pandemic? Very possibly a research student by the name of 黄燕玲 Huang YanLing who has disappeared and whose profile has also disappeared from the lab's website. Many Chinese netizens are currently searching for her but this information is quickly removed from the Internet by the CCP.
Many have made mistakes during this crisis including Western governments, and much of the reaction is emotional rather than logical, but the CCP do not deserve praise here. Many dislike America and its policies, but they are far, far better than the CCP.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »At what point do you plan to look at our own governments? You seem fairly focused on being sold that dummy early on and focusing on China.
You have to be delusional to think the showers that are trying to fix this in Europe and North America could have done a tap in China in December but sit on their hands and be out of ideas in their own countries by March.
That is the point I am trying to make.
I'm not denying that point however the point that I am trying to make is that there wouldn't be so much to fix and deal with if China had been honest from the beginning of the outbreak.
Instead they let it spread even more after the initial outbreak!
"On January 18, roughly six weeks after China’s deadly coronavirus started to spread in Wuhan, the city’s Baibuting district was preparing for its annual mass banquet. On the 20th anniversary of the event, the organisers would be attempting to break a world record for the largest number of dishes served.
Long tables in 10 locations were laid out with a total of 13,986 dishes, some bearing patriotic names such as Motherland in My Heart (cucumber and ham), and One Belt One Road (vegetable salad). The platters were prepared by members of some 40,000 families, according to media reports, with many of them showing up to eat the food and smile for the cameras.
Despite those happy scenes, the Baibuting banquets now stand as a symbol of China’s mishandling of a viral outbreak that has killed 565 and infected more than 28,000, and spread to at least 27 countries and territories."
https://www.ft.com/content/fa83463a-4737-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441
And yet you and another poster are pointing out how well they've dealt with the crisis.
So forgive me for suggesting that they could have dealt with it a whole lot better!0 -
goldbug371 wrote: »China purposely downplayed the severity of the virus and whilst restricting travel around China, criticised countries who wanted to ban flights coming from China. They, along with the WHO, claimed there was no evidence of the virus spreading from person to person. If you believe that the Communist Party of China is honest, then you are seriously deluded. Their current objective is to blame the West by pretending they have beaten the virus by reporting made up numbers and then criticising the response of the Western governments which were slow to bring in measures to control the virus.
The warnings coming from Italy when the virus got serious there were taken heed of. Remember the Italian doctors pleading with other nations to react fast. There were doctors in China that would have done this, but they were prevented by their government from doing so.
I lived in China for 18 years and still speak to Chinese people on a daily basis. I can tell you that China, or more accurately the CCP, is fighting a war against the West. The people of China are not allowed to oppose their government for fear of disappearing.
There are a huge number of wet markets in China, and it just happens to be the wet market 280 metres from the only research lab in China that was advertising for people to help with their research on a coronavirus in bats that they had recently discovered is transmissible from person to person. So who is patient zero in this pandemic. Very possibly a research student by the name of 黄燕玲 Huang YanLing who has disappeared and whose profile has also disappeared from the lab's website. Many Chinese netizens are currently searching for her but this information is quickly removed from the Internet by the CCP.
Many have made mistakes during this crises including Western governments, and much of the reaction is emotional rather than logical, but the CCP do not deserve praise here. Many dislike America and its policies, but they are far, far better than the CCP.
http://chinascope.org/archives/21512?doing_wp_cron=1586077913.6437609195709228515625
it explained the significance of identifying patient “No. Zero” and mentioned that the first reported infection case of coronavirus was on December 1, 2019 and the patient didn’t go to the seafood market, which China blamed as the starting point of the virus.
Thats even later then we thought. So the whistle blower was just a few weeks after the first case?0 -
goldbug371 wrote: »China purposely downplayed the severity of the virus and whilst restricting travel around China, criticised countries who wanted to ban flights coming from China. They, along with the WHO, claimed there was no evidence of the virus spreading from person to person. If you believe that the Communist Party of China is honest, then you are seriously deluded. Their current objective is to blame the West by pretending they have beaten the virus by reporting made up numbers and then criticising the response of the Western governments which were slow to bring in measures to control the virus.
The warnings coming from Italy when the virus got serious there were taken heed of. Remember the Italian doctors pleading with other nations to react fast. There were doctors in China that would have done this, but they were prevented by their government from doing so.
I lived in China for 18 years and still speak to Chinese people on a daily basis. I can tell you that China, or more accurately the CCP, is fighting a war against the West. The people of China are not allowed to oppose their government for fear of disappearing.
There are a huge number of wet markets in China, and it just happens to be the wet market 280 metres from the only research lab in China that was advertising for people to help with their research on a coronavirus in bats that they had recently discovered is transmissible from person to person. So who is patient zero in this pandemic? Very possibly a research student by the name of 黄燕玲 Huang YanLing who has disappeared and whose profile has also disappeared from the lab's website. Many Chinese netizens are currently searching for her but this information is quickly removed from the Internet by the CCP.
Many have made mistakes during this crises including Western governments, and much of the reaction is emotional rather than logical, but the CCP do not deserve praise here. Many dislike America and its policies, but they are far, far better than the CCP.
First post, I am highly suspicious of your back story and motives.
You seem focused on making this about a window in december and the CCP.
Smarter people then you can see the wood from the trees.0 -
LessOutragePlz wrote: »I'm not denying that point however the point that I am trying to make is that there wouldn't be so much to fix and deal with if China had been honest from the beginning of the outbreak.
Instead they let it spread even more after the initial outbreak!
"On January 18, roughly six weeks after China’s deadly coronavirus started to spread in Wuhan, the city’s Baibuting district was preparing for its annual mass banquet. On the 20th anniversary of the event, the organisers would be attempting to break a world record for the largest number of dishes served.
Long tables in 10 locations were laid out with a total of 13,986 dishes, some bearing patriotic names such as Motherland in My Heart (cucumber and ham), and One Belt One Road (vegetable salad). The platters were prepared by members of some 40,000 families, according to media reports, with many of them showing up to eat the food and smile for the cameras.
Despite those happy scenes, the Baibuting banquets now stand as a symbol of China’s mishandling of a viral outbreak that has killed 565 and infected more than 28,000, and spread to at least 27 countries and territories."
https://www.ft.com/content/fa83463a-4737-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441
And yet you and another poster are pointing out how well they've dealt with the crisis.
So forgive me for suggesting that they could have dealt with it a whole lot better!
That was clearly stupid, no doubt0 -
LessOutragePlz wrote: »The only smokescreen being used in this thread is by the 2 of ye using how Europe and the US handled this outbreak. To cover up the fact that China lied about the initial outbreak and covered it up which has inevitably led to more deaths and infections than if they had been honest front the beginning of all of this.
I'm not trying to cover up that fact. In fact it was the third sentence in my first post here.A lot of issues are being conflated I think.
While I completely agree with sentiments like these
Especially considering how the CCP treated the doctor that initially blew the whistle.
This is a separate issue, at least in my mind. They did try to cover up initially, the first doctor who blew the whistle was strongarmed into silence. More lives could have been saved. But since then a lot of lives have been saved.
But the exact same argument can be made for the US and Europe they easily could have saved more lives by locking down sooner. I'm not sure as many lives have been saved.0 -
I'm not trying to cover up that fact. In fact it was the third sentence in my first post here.
This is a separate issue, at least in my mind. They did try to cover up initially, the first doctor who blew the whistle was strongarmed into silence. More lives could have been saved. But since then a lot of lives have been saved.
But the exact same argument can be made for the US and Europe they easily could have saved more lives by locking down sooner. I'm not sure as many lives have been saved.
You are not allowed to be logical here. This is about chest beating nationalism and dog-whistle prejudice. You need to blame China for everything.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »nobody is trying to be woke, I have no like for the CCP but in fairness they Chinese people on the ground have dealt with it very impressively. The feedback from the expats inside China mustn't sit well with many who want to take down every single thing the people do there.
This is the exact crux of the issue. You're saying they've dealt with it impressively when you don't know and the evidence is piling up that it was more severe than the Chinese government were and are admitting. They've kicked out foreign journalists for heaven's sake.
I've spoken to people in mainland China, both expat and local, who don't believe the figures.
My own instinct from having spent a decent amount of time in China over the last decade, is that their figures are bunk, and they'll say anything to turn a PR disaster into a victory.
I honestly don't know why people are determined to amplify a propaganda campaign coming from a country that has had a hostile posture to the outside world for the last few years.0 -
I think I did say in previous posts that the numbers in China might not be bang on but clearly thye got hold of it. The idea of huge numbers that some seem keen to imply, the kinda numbers that would sit well with them when they look at the disaster unfolding in Europe, just didn't happen. You need to accept that.This is the exact crux of the issue. You're saying they've dealt with it impressively when you don't know and the evidence is piling up that it was more severe than the Chinese government were and are admitting. They've kicked out foreign journalists for heaven's sake.
I've spoken to people in mainland China, bot expat and local, who don't believe the figures.
My own instinct from having spent a decent amount of time in China over the last decade, is that they're figures are bunk, and they'll say anything to turn a PR disaster into a victory.
I honestly don't know why people are determined to amplify a propaganda campaign coming from a country that has had a hostile posture to the outside world for the last few years.
It didn't happen in China or any of east Asia.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »I think I did say in previous posts that the numbers in China might not be bang on but clearly thye got hold of it. The idea of huge numbers that some seem keen to imply, the kinda numbers that would sit well with them when they look at the disaster unfolding in Europe, just didn't happen. You need to accept that.
It didn't happen in China or any of east Asia.
The evidence is pointing to the death figures in China and Wuhan in particular were far in excess of what was reported, so I won't be accepting the airbrushed version from a autocratic government historically prone to burying bad news and poor behaviour.0 -
Advertisement
-
The evidence is pointing to the death figures in China and Wuhan in particular were far in excess of what was reported, so I won't be accepting the airbrushed version from a autocratic government historically prone to burying bad news and poor behaviour.
what kinda figures do you think? they say around 3000...you saying 6000? 60000?600000?6000000?
Is everyone in Wuhan dead?0 -
A hostile posture, really?I honestly don't know why people are determined to amplify a propaganda campaign coming from a country that has had a hostile posture to the outside world for the last few years.
China are not exporters of their doctrines such as the USA is, and USSR was.
Sure, they are bullish in the S. China Sea which is within their geographic area of influence, but generally speaking they are not out there threatening war nor launching war on other nations, nor using economic sanctions against those they disagree with.0 -
Ya the chinese are totally trustworthy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/coronavirus-china-doctor-disappears-warned-about-covid-19-threat/amp/0 -
Ya the chinese are totally trustworthy
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/coronavirus-china-doctor-disappears-warned-about-covid-19-threat/amp/
this will all come out in time. if a doctor disappeared it will leak more.
What got me most about that article is the picture, it shows a developing country with the medical staff far better prepared then our own.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »what kinda figures do you think? they say around 3000...you saying 6000? 60000?600000?6000000?
Is everyone in Wuhan dead?
Researchers at the University of Hong Kong modelled a figure of 232 thousand infections on Feb 20th.
We're getting closer to the truth there. The below article should open some eyes, including a prominent Chinese doctor slamming the Chinese Ambassador in France for peddling fluffy figures. He acknowledges many died any their deaths weren't recorded as Covid19.
https://time.com/5813628/china-coronavirus-statistics-wuhan/0 -
LessOutragePlz wrote: »So that's it let's attack our own countries governments and health systems in a time of crisis like this?
And forget how and where this all started and forgot the fact if China had acted sooner this crisis would not have been as bad as it is now?
We all saw what was happening in China in January. The whole world could see it. Maybe the Chinese did try to suppress the initial outbreak news for some sort of jingoistic reason or just plain stupidity, the fact is that the whole world did know about it. So if the Chinese had acted sooner what would America or Europe have done differently?
I could see what was coming down the line for the USA, everyone on the planet could see and yet US government refused to do anything. This isn't anti US or pro China it is a fact. If China had said in December "there is a weird virus going round " what would Trump have done???0 -
BluePlanet wrote: »A hostile posture, really?
China are not exporters of their doctrines such as the USA is, and USSR was.
Sure, they are bullish in the S. China Sea which is within their geographic area of influence, but generally speaking they are not out there threatening war nor launching war on other nations, nor using economic sanctions against those they disagree with.
I've a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you...0 -
-
Researchers at the University of Hong Kong modelled a figure of 232 thousand infections on Feb 20th.
We're getting closer to the truth there. The below article should open some eyes, including a prominent Chinese doctor slamming the Chinese Ambassador in France for peddling fluffy figures. He acknowledges many died any their deaths weren't recorded as Covid19.
https://time.com/5813628/china-coronavirus-statistics-wuhan/
232 thousand ...they say 83000 offically tested. I doubt they would argue with 232k.
I am talking about the dead. They say 3300, it could be 4, myabe 4300....but are you saying it's 80k, more?0 -
Advertisement
-
cryptocurrency wrote: »this will all come out in time. if a doctor disappeared it will leak more.
What got me most about that article is the picture, it shows a developing country with the medical staff far better prepared then our own.
Ha, you're some bluffer. A person disappears without explanation and you want to talk about the ventilators in the background. True to form. Never change crypto.0
Advertisement