The Chinese Big Lie

Beechwoodspark

FVP3 wrote: »

There's a hint of "Skibbereen Eagle has its eye on the Czar" about that statement.

If they don't pay, will we send over the coast guard?

I said I would support Ireland JOINING IN the effort.

I’m not a diplomatic expert on how it would be done.

Special convening of a UN effort?

However many countries join up and hold China to account.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

China is hugely indebted. I suggest read up on China, its fantasy economics and 'growth' figures, they are not as all powerful as one may think. In fact they are very weak in many ways and a co-ordinated international response would topple them (the CCP) imo.

Agreed. Although, I suspect it would topple far more than just China. They've bought a crap-ton of businesses around the world, many of which employ huge numbers worldwide. Taking down the Chinese economy would have serious implications to every other market in the world.

As for toppling the CCP themselves, I don't see it. The ruling body are mega rich. They'll close borders, squash internal dissent, and weather out the storm. It would seriously put them back a few decades, but I suspect they'd manage it better than Europe or America. China still has a manufacturing base to fall back on. The reliance on services, while profitable, has shown to be very flimsy from an economic perspective, and the West doesn't have a solid foundation anymore.

Taking down China would likely bring about another crash like the 20's. The West needs to gradually withdraw from China, and build a more stable economic system before taking on China. As it is, "we're" incredibly vulnerable to fluctuations in the world economy.

2u2me

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I said I would support Ireland JOINING IN the effort.

I’m not a diplomatic expert on how it would be done.

Special convening of a UN effort?

However many countries join up and hold China to account.

They banned the sale of bats after the last outbreak with good reason as they are reservoirs for numerous types of corona virus'.

Unfortunately it seems they slowly creeped back into the black markets and normalized again.

Apparently they have come down hard this time and banned them again. I guess we can only watch this space.

LessOutragePlz

FVP3 wrote: »

As I said before, I was anti globalist years ago, now that the the chickens are literally coming home to roost its funny to see the supporters of the US -- the major ideological supporter of globalisation -- frothing at the mouth at the consequences.

People will any crisis such as this to get their opportunity in to bash the US.

FVP3

Wibbs wrote: »

This is very much a soft form of Western philosophy as control, even cultural imperialism. We invented democracy and prefer individualism over the community and a separation of church and state and fought long to get that. America's cultural philosophy that was directly influenced by 17th century French revolutionary thought sums it up quite well down to today. It's well dug into us.

So to the European mind the notion that many Muslim cultures might want and are only to happy to live under a caliphate type system just doesn't click with us, and we figure they need "fixing". Same for in this case a Chinese culture that is into social compliance, the family name, the emperor/party and happy with that, doesn't sit well with us and again we want to "fix" it. Hell, look at those family names. Here in Europe your Christian name comes before your family name, In China and in some other Asian cultures your family name comes first. Here you'd Sean O'Reilly, in China you'd be O'Reilly Sean. Shows the importance placed. Confucian though places family and state at the top and elevates compliance to both to a virtue. The European mind goes WTF?? to that.

So yeah for all the more recent PC stuff in the western mind we're still just as "imperial" and culturally dismissive in many ways.

You are right that the imposition of the idea of "democracy" worldwide is just another form of imperialism.

In any case independent studies show the Chinese support their government, far more that most Western nations, so its not close to being overthrown.

US trust in politics and government in free fall.

https://www.people-press.org/2019/04/11/public-trust-in-government-1958-2019/

In this next survey the US and Ireland have low trust in Government ( this was 2013) at 35%, the Chinese are at 66%.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/11/21/confidence-in-government-falls-in-much-of-the-developed-world/

Chinese people have a history of periods of stability and incredible anarchy. The fear the anarchy, with good reason, millions can be killed. In terms of economic and political reform of communism they look to Russia in the 90s as what not to do.

You are probably wrong about Europeans and their supposed innate individualism. Maybe in Anglo cultures, but it's hardly universal throughout Europe as the rise of fascism and communism, both European originated ideologies, proves.

In fact before this all took off the debate on free speech seemed to be relegated to people routinely dismissed as fascists. And given we are all locked up in our rooms and the police are checking our papers, we too clearly sacrifice freedom for stability.

FVP3

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

People will any crisis such as this to get their opportunity in to bash the US.

Or indeed China, neither of which I or you (probably) live in.

What I notice now is how many people in Ireland think they are actually living in the US. The kind of poster who wants to attack de guberment here for incompetence gets into hysterics if their beloved US, or Dear Leader Trump is attacked. Of course there are leftists who think they live there as well, ranting about "white privilege", as if our history had anything in common with the Empire.

BarryD2

Deleted User wrote: »

Taking down China would likely bring about another crash like the 20's. The West needs to gradually withdraw from China, and build a more stable economic system before taking on China. As it is, "we're" incredibly vulnerable to fluctuations in the world economy.

I tend to agree. I think the 'west' will do some longer term strategic thinking when this crisis passes. There'll be no rush to punish China but none the less, a chill wind will increasingly blow their way.

A lot will depend on assessment of China's role and actions
- this and other recent viruses have emanated from there
- they are clearly hiding the true figures of deaths and the impact of this virus on their citizens
- they are now cranking up the factories and seeking to profit from it.

goldbug371

goldbug371 wrote: »

Should that not be up to the locals to decide?

That really depends on context though, doesn't it?

Take China, the wet markets, and the eating of bushmeat. Many posters here on boards are demanding that China be forced into abandoning their traditional practices and accept a more modern/safe way of living.

China took Tibet as a protectorate. Britain did the same with Palestine, and Egypt. Many Western nations have done similar within a few decades of China's actions, with them seeking to imprint their national culture there. Just look at Vietnam under the French before the war happened. From a Chinese perspective, they've been doing the same as western countries. Except that suddenly, western countries decided that now was the time to stop. The Chinese weren't involved in that decision, but just expected to accept it. That's kinda difficult for a re-emerging empire to accept.

Tibet is incredibly backward by western standards. Even by Chinese standards, it's rather primitive. I've been there twice within the last decade. It's a very traditional society, and would have no interest in taking on most modern ways, especially since they wouldn't have the economy (or culture) to support such changes.

As to to those defending China's ethnic cleansing... Take a trip to Mongolia. What China is doing there is horrible. It should be unacceptable, but the truth is that nobody really cares. Because people are selfish. Posters here demand that China changes in relation to exotic meats... but won't consider that many territories that are being ethnically cleansed are following cultures/traditions from centuries ago. They're not even remotely modern, and have no interest in becoming such.

China "owning" those territories is just a fact of life. Nobody is going to stop them... and there's a lot of double standards being applied here. We dismiss the behavior of the US or European powers for how they themselves behaved up until fairly recently, because they make the right noises about it not being acceptable now.... but honestly, don't you think that if they had the opportunity they would seek to push their own cultures on to others? Ever seen an area near a US military base? You should see them in Korea. Little America.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

The military is only thing propping em up,they are running deficits that even the craziest shinner wouldnt propose,all while proclaiming venezual econmic illterates :pac: ......this cant continue indefinetly and will catch up with em,and may be for another thread,

You have a childlike view on America, I must say.
Defict spending is what the EU have been doing for the past 20 years.
France for example hasn't posted a budget surplus since the 1960's if I recall correctly. I guess they are going to disappear...

but ireland should begin to limit our exposure to the mess that,that will be

Limit our exposure how and if we are going to shy away from American FDI, we should pivot towards....who? China?

If you are correct and America is 'toppled' we have bigger worries on our plate, than China.

I may be wrong,but i suspect.the CCP may be more difficult to eradicate and influence to remove than the nazis who were only 12 years in power??

Some thought the same of Communist and Soviet Russia, but it disappeared overnight.

Your idea is not without merit like,but seems impossible to implement without civil war erupting in china?....surely it would be easier to clear a path to power for more middle of road members of the CCP,

The CCP gain legitimacy through their economic management of the country. If the average Chinese feel richer then that is good. If the world turns on China and in turn they cannot sell their **** to the world, thus making China poorer expect social and economic upheaval in the country. Its a big IF of course. China could turn around and start a war with South Korea or Taiwan and whip up the population in patriotic fervor.

LessOutragePlz

FVP3 wrote: »

Or indeed China, neither of which I or you (probably) live in.

What I notice now is how many people in Ireland think they are actually living in the US. The kind of poster who wants to attack de guberment here for incompetence gets into hysterics if their beloved US, or Dear Leader Trump is attacked. Of course there are leftists who think they live there as well, ranting about "white privilege", as if our history had anything in common with the Empire.

Yeah very true head over to the politics forum and you'll have people claiming that the orange man is good or bad. Which I'll never understand because a large proportion of the decisions he makes will have little to no direct impact on us. Yet people will be hugely invested in their point of view.

FVP3

markodaly wrote: »

That is mostly a myth.

China owns a few trillion in US securities.

And what have we at the moment??

I get the sense that there is a lot of anger that China hide and duped the entire world over this virus. Do you think the EU are likely to forget about China's deception and all their dead once this is over? Not likely. There will be massive public pressure to act once this is over. Not act in some world war, but act to bring China to heal economically as the state and CCP cannot be trusted thus should be ostracised internationally. They do not act like other states as we have seen to our cost.

The idea that China caused this is not in fact that common in Europe, Europeans are less controlled by neo conservative rhetoric than english speakers ( and who knows how common that is outside this echo chamber).

The EU itself has not covered itself in glory in this event.

China is hugely indebted. I suggest read up on China, its fantasy economics and 'growth' figures, they are not as all powerful as one may think. In fact they are very weak in many ways and a co-ordinated international response would topple them (the CCP) imo.

if you want to link to where we read up on China that would be great. I kind of feel that behind all the protestations about China, the real crashes and bank failures tend to happen in the West. And when we come out of this the West will be incredibly indebted, meanwhile China has started to go back to work again, and most of the country wasnt affected.

The chinese don't have predatory asset stripping banks but instead the banks are state owned. This will soften any blow:

https://www.investmenteurope.net/opinion/4001647/china-debt

The Chinese far from having a "fantasy economy" clearly had tremendous industrial facilities, which is the real basis of a modern economy, after all. And that is why we are sourcing our PPE from them, we can't do it.

They also have a huge savings rate, which tends to buffer debt.

auspicious

https://unwatch.org/china-joins-u-n-human-rights-panel-will-help-pick-experts-on-free-speech-health-arbitrary-detention/

LessOutragePlz

auspicious wrote: »

https://unwatch.org/china-joins-u-n-human-rights-panel-will-help-pick-experts-on-free-speech-health-arbitrary-detention/

I saw that earlier what a joke the UN is can't take them seriously anymore when they make decisions like this.

markodaly

FVP3 wrote: »

What's the obsession with China in the 19th C? Of course it was an empire in its history, but largely destroyed and controlled by Western adventurism ( and in the case of the British -- drug pushing) by mid 19C. A rebellion against this saw a motley crew of European colonial powers advance into the country raping and looting it.

The real genocidal colonialism of the 19C was the American Empire's movement West into native american territory.

Why are you playing, 'my genocide is worse then yours'? Stupid game.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I saw this also in paper

Every country affected by this horrendous virus should invoice China.

I would support Ireland joining in this effort and sending China a bill for 100 billion euro.

It might make China close down the awful disgusting wet markets for a start.

First, they'd tell everyone to fcuk off. It's a stupid idea because it's completely unworkable.

As for the wet markets, I wonder at the ignorance. It's been said many times already.

Wet markets appeal to the poor because they're cheap. You shut down the wet market, another one will appear somewhere else. You manage to keep all of them shut down, where do poor people buy food? Supermarkets have higher costs to operate so the food is more expensive, which means that poor people have less food to eat. Food is already subsidized in China. It's one of the governments few gestures towards welfare support, and it's still difficult for the poor to buy. Which results in instability, so the government will be forced to allow wet markets because that's what people already know and want.

How do you propose forcing people to stop using wet markets? You really want to encourage police brutality and sending people off to prison (Chinese prisons and work camps are pretty nasty)?

There are no easy and quick answers here. China needs time to evolve towards a better system... and that's going to take decades considering the sheer size of their population.

Wibbs

FVP3 wrote: »

You are probably wrong about Europeans and their supposed innate individualism. Maybe in Anglo cultures, but it's hardly universal throughout Europe as the rise of fascism and communism, both European originated ideologies, proves.

and both had a short shelf life. Fascism lasted not much more than a decade and communism lasted 80 years and kicked off in Russia most strongly because it was throwing off the shackles of mass slavery and near medieval feudalism. China has been a lot more stable in political philosophy and for far longer.

In fact before this all took off the debate on free speech seemed to be relegated to people routinely dismissed as fascists. And given we are all locked up in our rooms and the police are checking our papers, we too clearly sacrifice freedom for stability.

Temporarily. And we're hardly living in 1930's Germany either, or Social Score China either. Not by a long shot.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

What kind of evidence would be acceptable? Let's face it, people would (and should) question anything that came from China, and you're not going to get whistleblowers. Being a traitor carries the death sentence and it doesn't stop with that person, but extends to their whole family.



Because stopping the spread of the virus is an impossibility. Even now, months after it's identification, there is serious confusion about how the virus is transmitted and how to detect it. There is still a lot of vagueness about silent carriers, or about people who become reinfected, or the failure to test people properly.

Fact is, this virus is not going to be contained completely. It can only be slowed down, until a vaccine is created, and distributed. Even in China, the virus spread hasn't been stopped completely. New cases are popping up reported by different provinces rather than the governments overall figure.




Here's the thing though. Many Chinese people are extremely insular and ignorant. In the countryside you'll find many areas which worship the party the same way as in Mao's time. Generally speaking, in universities, you'll find the bastions of party support... so while defending the common person is important, it's worth considering that hundreds of millions of people support the party completely. They don't care about "foreigners", and they view any area within China's borders as "theirs".



I'm not very familiar with Singapore's politics. Chinese people tend to want authoritarian systems. An extreme minority might want a democratic system, but whenever you find a business or organisation created privately, the leadership has absolute power over employees. There is something in Chinese people that says either we want to be dominated (and have choice removed), or to dominate their neighbors. So.. I don't see democracy as being the answer.

Good post.

I am hearing that the Chinese misinformation campaign in China has been very successful. Apparently the average Chinese person fully believes now that the Virus was brought over by a US Army personal.

Just like we have MAGA people in the likes of Alabama, we have similar in China.

Wibbs

markodaly wrote: »

Just like we have MAGA people in the likes of Alabama, we have similar in China.

And why Ireland and wider Europe needs to be the ones keeping a cool head about all this.

2u2me

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Yeah very true head over to the politics forum and you'll have people claiming that the orange man is good or bad. Which I'll never understand because a large proportion of the decisions he makes will have little to no direct impact on us. Yet people will be hugely invested in their point of view.

Kayfabe. Trump is a master of it. It(and he) come out of the wrestling world. Sociology will be writing papers about it in 10 years. Just look at the ratings the media get when they show him. I'm sure his traffic on boards is just as good as everywhere else.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. Although, I suspect it would topple far more than just China. They've bought a crap-ton of businesses around the world, many of which employ huge numbers worldwide. Taking down the Chinese economy would have serious implications to every other market in the world.

Agreed, however, what we have now isn't exactly great either. It may take something of this economic magnititure for the world to de-couple itself from China. Its a big if, I know but certainly if the EU and the US get together and from some consensus on this, it would worry the CCP hugely.

As for toppling the CCP themselves, I don't see it. The ruling body are mega rich. They'll close borders, squash internal dissent, and weather out the storm. It would seriously put them back a few decades, but I suspect they'd manage it better than Europe or America. China still has a manufacturing base to fall back on. The reliance on services, while profitable, has shown to be very flimsy from an economic perspective, and the West doesn't have a solid foundation anymore.

I would not disagree per say with that. The CCP are indeed a powerful beast, but hurting them economically could expose the huge internal divisions that we all know are there. We had a sneak preview to this during the later stages of the outbreak in Wuhan on Chinese social media. If the newly arrived middle class Chinese are denied their rightful path to prosperity for a decade or so, they are not going to stand idly by and accept being fodder for the CCP.

Taking down China would likely bring about another crash like the 20's. The West needs to gradually withdraw from China, and build a more stable economic system before taking on China. As it is, "we're" incredibly vulnerable to fluctuations in the world economy.

Are we not there now? As I said, we are already in a global recession and most likely a global depression as the world is slowly waking up to the fact that this virus is going to be with us until we have a vaccine which is at least one year away. Therefore, our economies and world are going to remain in some stake of lockdown and curtailment. Forget about business as normal in June 2020, we will be lucky to get back to business (pre-Covid19) as normal June 2021!

The window to take China down a peg could be the here and now, but I fear we have no leadership in the West to do it. Everyone looking after their own back and re election.

skellig_rocks

Deleted User wrote: »

First, they'd tell everyone to fcuk off. It's a stupid idea because it's completely unworkable.

I think no one are expecting financial compensation will come to fruition. However it would generate public attention and bad publicity which China hates. China and Chinese people hates losing "faces".

There are no easy and quick answers here. China needs time to evolve towards a better system... and that's going to take decades considering the sheer size of their population.

I worry China are actually going backward since Xi became President. His policies on Xijiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan and internal controls are some worrying trends. It is not helpful that he helped himself to become president for life after changing the Chinese Constitution in 2018.


As you said in previous posts few weeks ago. You probably will notice anti-foreigners sentiment increase in the near future.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Some thought the same of Communist and Soviet Russia, but it disappeared overnight.

Only as a government. The first time I went to Moscow, there was a march walking through the main street. Hundreds of thousands of people waving communist era flags, and declaring the return of such a system. Even now, when you look at Russia, not much has really changed. Sure, there's a greater interest in capitalism, but they're still very focused on central authority, and secret police.

They changed names, and branded themselves differently.

As for China... you're dreaming. They've been constantly conditioned for decades. Some of the propaganda is really obvious, but a lot more is rather subtle. I've seen it in the classes in Miiddle/High schools. Same with primary schools, who are often worse.

The CCP gain legitimacy through their economic management of the country. If the average Chinese feel richer then that is good. If the world turns on China and in turn they cannot sell their **** to the world, thus making China poorer expect social and economic upheaval in the country. Its a big IF of course. China could turn around and start a war with South Korea or Taiwan and whip up the population in patriotic fervor.

The CCP gain legitimacy through the legacy of Mao. You're far too dismissive of Chinese culture as a factor. Chinese people dwell on their memories, as the people who endured the brutality die off, the younger generation just associate with the positives. Education and media paint a far different perspective of their history, and that has a definite effect on their mindsets.

While there are millions of Chinese who wouldn't trust or like their government. There are hundreds of millions who are tied to the CCP completely. There's also a link of guilt... everyone is already in or connected to the party. They've contributed to where the party is today, and few will want themselves to become accountable for their behavior. Everyone in China fears the mob. Mao created China out of the mob, but it's also their strongest fear.

Nah. The CCP are firmly established in the minds of Chinese people. You could kill off the upper echelon, and it would be replaced with far more traditional minded folks within weeks.

The funny thing is that Xi... and those who support him are modernists. You replace them, and you'd be getting the more traditional and warlike Chinese people. More introverted. Less tolerant of foreigners. Less willing to make any kind of concessions. Honestly, you should be hoping that XI, and his supporters stay in power for the long term. The alternative leaders would likely go to war pretty quickly.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

What kind of evidence would be acceptable? Let's face it, people would (and should) question anything that came from China, and you're not going to get whistleblowers. Being a traitor carries the death sentence and it doesn't stop with that person, but extends to their whole family.

I do question everything that comes out of China, and in this specific circumstance they past my test of scrutiny.

I would accept any kind of evidence. With the amount of people here sure that China are fudging their numbers I'd expect to see something. Second hand conjecture from an urn delivery driver is just not enough for me.
As previously stated by another poster VPNs are widely used in China they cannot suppress something of this magnitutude. Bill Clinton couldn't suppress an affair in the 90s.

They have too much to lose and too little to gain by lying about their numbers IMO. Their numbers also align with other countries in the region.

FVP3

markodaly wrote: »

Limit our exposure how and if we are going to shy away from American FDI, we should pivot towards....who? China?

Yes. Europe as a whole should do that, rejecting all US philosophies from neo-conservatism, to neo-liberalism, to multiculturalism. We need an alliance of ancient nations.

If you are correct and America is 'toppled' we have bigger worries on our plate, than China.

It won't be toppled in one fell swoop but it is clearly yesterday's man; its own people hate each other across racial and political lines, and don't trust the government, and it barely exists as a coherent nation. Europe needs to detach from this decaying behemoth, over the next generation. That is of course happening on individual country levels as some european countries join the Belt and Road Initiative.

Some thought the same of Communist and Soviet Russia, but it disappeared overnight.

Comparing the USSR to China is a category error. The Chinese are post-ideological. In fact when people like Matt Ridley ( and probably you) eulogise globalisation and how capitalism is great altogether, they tend to talk about the massive reduction in poverty in the world in the last 20 years. Most of this reduction was in China. China is therefore credited with being capitalist when it suits, and communist when it suits. They are, clearly, inbetween.

Being post ideological they don't have the baggage of neo-classical ideology, and austerity and what not. The Chinese State philosophy is to do what is needed to guarantee security and economic growth. This contrasts with the decaying and failed philosophies of neo-liberalism, neo-conservatism, and multiculturalism. Those Gods have failed.

The US (and the West) was never non-ideological anyway but there was a lot of practicality; for instance social welfare states and Keynesian economies not being utterly capitalist in the post war consensus, but that died out in the 21st C.

Look at Greece in 2008/9. Look at the Dutch now. Neoclassical messy little orthodoxies.

It is the Chinese who are more practical and post ideological now.

The CCP gain legitimacy through their economic management of the country. If the average Chinese feel richer then that is good. If the world turns on China and in turn they cannot sell their **** to the world, thus making China poorer expect social and economic upheaval in the country. Its a big IF of course. China could turn around and start a war with South Korea or Taiwan and whip up the population in patriotic fervor.

The world isn't going to turn on China, because the world needs China, and Asia. And it is part of other organisations that it dominates, like the BRICS, who collectively are 26% of the world's GDP. The US is 15.2% of word GDP, and falling. The EU is about 16%.

However it is not even that. I posted a list of components needed to produce the iPhone yesterday, and why they could never be produced in the West. So if Apple want to go bust they will support "excluding China from the world economy". And the other manufacturing companies in the US, if you can think of any, also have that problem. Nor can China be extracted from the Asian economy, nor is there any desire even from political enemies of China in Asia to do so.

markodaly

FVP3 wrote: »

China owns a few trillion in US securities.

A few as in $1.1 Trillion, which equates to about 4% ?

if you want to link to where we read up on China that would be great. I kind of feel that behind all the protestations about China, the real crashes and bank failures tend to happen in the West. And when we come out of this the West will be incredibly indebted,

Yea, because China did not spend a penny the past few months? Give me a break

meanwhile China has started to go back to work again, and most of the country wasnt affected.

Do you belive the 'offical' numbers? I do not, especially when many foreign journalists have been expelled from the country.
Put simply we do not know for sure the extent of what happened or what is happening in China. It may look worse in the west but that is because in the west there is generally open and transparent government and press. In China you habe none of those things. If you want to believe the official line from the CCP, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

The Chinese far from having a "fantasy economy" clearly had tremendous industrial facilities, which is the real basis of a modern economy, after all. And that is why we are sourcing our PPE from them, we can't do it.

Yes, lots of industrial capacity where they can sell to themselves once other people don't want to do business with them. You can have as many factories as you want, but its useless if no one wants to buy your stuff.

They also have a huge savings rate, which tends to buffer debt.

This much debt?

skellig_rocks

markodaly wrote: »

Good post.

I am hearing that the Chinese misinformation campaign in China has been very successful. Apparently the average Chinese person fully believes now that the Virus was brought over by a US Army personal.

Just like we have MAGA people in the likes of Alabama, we have similar in China.

I can verify from my contacts in China that the above is true. However they are all using China controlled social media systems (WeChat and Weibo), so they may not have a choice to say anything else.


You are not even allowed to keep silence anymore in social chat groups. If you stay silence in pro-China opinions, you are treated as anti-China and may affect your social credits.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit-system-explained

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Agreed, however, what we have now isn't exactly great either. It may take something of this economic magnititure for the world to de-couple itself from China. Its a big if, I know but certainly if the EU and the US get together and from some consensus on this, it would worry the CCP hugely.

It would worry me too. The US looks after it's own interests and will bully Europe into playing ball. It's not a partnership. The US will always want to be the dominant party in any agreement... and I don't trust their motives.

Europe needs to step away from the US, and make friends with Russia. They're the natural ally in all this, along with making connections with all the "lesser" nations worldwide. Step away from the US and China, because we shouldn't become dependent on either. They will have a war or a series of wars within our lifetimes. If China doesn't start one, the US will find an excuse.

I would not disagree per say with that. The CCP are indeed a powerful beast, but hurting them economically could expose the huge internal divisions that we all know are there. We had a sneak preview to this during the later stages of the outbreak in Wuhan on Chinese social media. If the newly arrived middle class Chinese are denied their rightful path to prosperity for a decade or so, they are not going to stand idly by and accept being fodder for the CCP.

The middle class are drones. They have no power or influence. They're also too educated to be trusted by the poor, and too ineffective to be supported by the rich.

And the problems with the virus just showed the confusion between local politics and Beijing. Most of the blame by common people is being directed at a local level, and the CCP are coming out pretty well.

I wouldn't expect any kind of revolution.

Are we not there now? As I said, we are already in a global recession and most likely a global depression as the world is slowly waking up to the fact that this virus is going to be with us until we have a vaccine which is at least one year away. Therefore, our economies and world are going to remain in some stake of lockdown and curtailment. Forget about business as normal in June 2020, we will be lucky to get back to business (pre-Covid19) as normal June 2021!

Nope. I don't buy into that theory. People will be sacrificed for the good of the economy. I don't believe that the politicians have the willpower to resist putting everyone back to work... There will be some dips, but for the most part, I'm expecting to see an upsurge in economic prosperity. Crisis brings opportunity....

The window to take China down a peg could be the here and now, but I fear we have no leadership in the West to do it. Everyone looking after their own back and re election.

I honestly don't see what taking China down a peg would achieve though. It simply antagonizes them at a time when the west is weak. It achieves nothing of value. I expect empty face saving gestures from the Chinese, I expect (probably foolishly) better insight from the west. Get something of value before putting China into a corner, because they will come out swinging... and they have a lot to swing with. The US is not what it once was.

FVP3

markodaly wrote: »

Why are you playing, 'my genocide is worse then yours'? Stupid game.

I am posting to unserious people.

if you want to be taken seriously, then perhaps give some explanation of how we would extract China from the world economy. Specifics.

markodaly

FVP3 wrote: »

Yes. Europe as a whole should do that, rejecting all US philosophies from neo-conservatism, to neo-liberalism, to multiculturalism. We need an alliance of ancient nations.

Oh Christ, are you one of those people?

As for pivoting to China and ditching American FDI which has made this countries rich beyond its wildest dreams in a matter of decades, you are a fool if you think this is either a good idea or achievable.

It won't be toppled in one fell swoop but it is clearly yesterday's man;

Clearly, how?

Being post ideological they don't have the baggage of neo-classical ideology, and austerity and what not. The Chinese State philosophy is to do what is needed to guarantee security and economic growth. This contrasts with the decaying and failed philosophies of neo-liberalism, neo-conservatism, and multiculturalism. Those Gods have failed.

And what new Gods should we now follow? Protectionism, mono-culturalism and statism?

However it is not even that. I posted a list of components needed to produce the iPhone yesterday, and why they could never be produced in the West. So if Apple want to go bust they will support "excluding China from the world economy". And the other manufacturing companies in the US, if you can think of any, also have that problem. Nor can China be extracted from the Asian economy, nor is there any desire even from political enemies of China in Asia to do so.

I never knew China had a monopoly on raw materials and electronic components, most of them manufacturers in Taiwan.

You are over-egging the pudding my comrade friend.

markodaly

FVP3 wrote: »

I am posting to unserious people.

if you want to be taken seriously, then perhaps give some explanation of how we would extract China from the world economy. Specifics.

If this is a serious topic, about China, then why in gods name are you bringing up native American genocide as a way to shield China's own war crimes when it comes to their own attempts at Genocide and ethnic cleansing?

A classic case of whataboutery.