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The Chinese Big Lie
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silverharp wrote: »I'd say understating by X4 or X5 , thats their problem, hopefully their population has some kind of revolution after this. Dictatorial regimes dont look good here , except western media seems to have the horn for China to make them look like they are ahead of it all the time.
So what Iran X4 or X5?
China? X10? X2? X50? X1?
South Korea X2? X4? X1? Correct?
UK X1? X5? X2? What about them care homes?
USA X2? X1? X4?
Italy X2? X1 all correct and angel like with data reporting?
Mongolia? Russia? Vietnam? Japan? Indonesia? Burma? Vantanu? all correct or have they massaged the numbers?
Aren't all these nations outside of the EU and North America totally incapable nations and not capable of doing anything to the level of the EU or North America? If over 90% of the reported deaths are in Europe and North America then surely these lesser nations are covering up on an industrial scale.
What do you think? over 1 million covered up? two million? maybe they are all dead there and we are just getting reports from bots? maybe it is a big elaborate set up? Am i dead?0 -
silverharp wrote: »I'd say understating by X4 or X5 , thats their problem, hopefully their population has some kind of revolution after this. Dictatorial regimes dont look good here , except western media seems to have the horn for China to make them look like they are ahead of it all the time.
I wouldn't expect any kind of revolution... perhaps the seeds planted for one in a decade or two, but nothing immediately after. The party is far too entrenched, and has too much support in the military/police. Perhaps some social unrest in the form of marches/riots, with the expected over-reaction by the government, thereby increasing bitterness... but I seriously wouldn't hold out any hope of change for a good few years.
And the party is seen by many to have improved their lives immeasurably, and they're grateful for those changes. The virus won't turn the majority against the party, and even if it did, social conditioning will ensure any protests be very very low key.0 -
This is the part that people go silent on. Mention Taiwan or South Korea and the narrative fails.
Ok see link on how South Korea beat the virus - they (like Taiwan) ignored the bs from China and WHO and acted when they saw what was happening in Hubei. Note that they acted faster than CCP and before the virus had even hit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/south-korea-rapid-intrusive-measures-covid-19
You need to find another country.0 -
Ok see link on how South Korea beat the virus - they (like Taiwan) ignored the bs from China and WHO and acted when they saw what was happening in Hubei. Note that they acted faster than CCP and before the virus had even hit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/20/south-korea-rapid-intrusive-measures-covid-19
You need to find another country.
On 16 January, the South Korean biotech executive Chun Jong-yoon grasped the reality unfolding in China and directed his lab to work to stem the virus’s inevitable spread; within days, his team developed detection kits now in high demand around the world.
There has been a general consensus in South Korea to trust in and respect the advice coming from doctors and scientists
Meanwhile, the South Korean government assumed the virus would hit.
16th of January, about the same time I presumed it would hit Ireland and ordered PPE. ...........
This article doesn't make your point, it makes mine.0 -
This doesn't surprise me one bit. China is quite the xenophobic culture and has been for a very long time. Except when it suited and was controllable, the "foreign" has always been highly suspect. Often for very good reasons to the Chinese mind. They were certainly screwed over by European powers in the past and had many attacks from more local powers on their empire throughout their history. The "barbarians" at the gate was always present. The joke is Africans never screwed them over, nor did Indians, but they're on the bottom of the list of acceptable non Chinese faces, with White Europeans at the top.
Plus political correctness never translated well or much beyond predominately European cultures, and even in those cultures people can forget it's not much more than a generation old. Hell, when I was a kid black and white minstrels were still a thing(Lyons Tea had them in ads), kids had gollywogs and when you eeny, meeny, miny, moe'd you certainly weren't catching tigers by the toe.
Wibbs, the world's expert on China from the comfort of his living room.
What's interesting here is not the incident, but how this incident ( one of tens of thousands if not more of racially charged events on any one day in the world) becomes main news. Generally there's something else being hidden when the US gets it propaganda arm in gear like this, and it seems to be a reaction to the racist campaign from Taiwan against Dr Tedros.
Very easy to spot. The "China is lying about the numbers" campaign happened on the very first day that the US figures exceeded the Chinese. The "China's Chernobyl" was the main narrative in January, until the Chinese lockdown was clearly working, then China was a totalitarian hellhole, until the West had to impose similar measures. Now it has resurrected again because China should not have just shut down 60M people but stopped all flights to Europe, that apparently wasn't possible for the recipient countries to do themselves. It's like blaming Italy for the flights to Ireland on the postponed 6 nations weekend, but not Ireland.
Then once the W.H.O said the China was getting to grips with the virus Dr Tedros was "imposed on the W.H.O" by China who controlled the purse strings of the W.H.O. In fact the W.H.O gets its main funding from the US -- which is why Trump is threatening to withhold it -- and the election was behind closed doors and there's no indication from the reports in 2017 that he is China's man.
China is now accused of not acting fast enough, so a narrative that accused them of being totalitarian is now retrospectively accusing then of being not totalitarian enough quickly enough.
Then they sent PPE equipment ( unlike the US who tried to stop it from getting to Europe) and the fact that some were not perfect becomes the main news. This is of course produced output, mostly by the deep state who have "journalists", particularly on the web, in their pockets. Funny then that Trump supporters are onboard this time.
The problem with listening to the propaganda from a country where 100M people believe in the rapture and the rest believe that the world should basically look like the US, is that these nutcases are happy to make the world burn to get their way. Even more so than it is already, in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Venezuela, Bolivia and more. Belligerence against Russia and China. Hatred of Europe. A vile country. They will nuke the world if they could.
* To get an example of how the narrative is controlled look at the similarity of posts across many months on the phrase "China's Chernoybl"
https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+chernoybl&oq=china%27s+chernoybl&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.5442j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-80 -
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cryptocurrency wrote: »On 16 January, the South Korean biotech executive Chun Jong-yoon grasped the reality unfolding in China and directed his lab to work to stem the virus’s inevitable spread; within days, his team developed detection kits now in high demand around the world.
There has been a general consensus in South Korea to trust in and respect the advice coming from doctors and scientists
Meanwhile, the South Korean government assumed the virus would hit.
16th of January, about the same time I presumed it would hit Ireland and ordered PPE. ...........
This article doesn't make your point, it makes mine.
It is actually difficult to know what your point is as your posts are on the whole pretty incoherent.
I assumed your point was that people are not believing the numbers in China but as Taiwan and S Korea have managed to beat it then you should believe Chinese numbers. Well my point was that these countries cannot be used to justify Chinese numbers.
So as I have got your point wrong, can you give me a coherent description for why the above story proves your point.0 -
Wibbs, the world's expert on China from the comfort of his living room.
What's interesting here is not the incident, but how this incident ( one of tens of thousands if not more of racially charged events on any one day in the world) becomes main news. Generally there's something else being hidden when the US gets it propaganda arm in gear like this, and it seems to be a reaction to the racist campaign from Taiwan against Dr Tedros.
Very easy to spot. The "China is lying about the numbers" campaign happened on the very first day that the US figures exceeded the Chinese. The "China's Chernobyl" was the main narrative in January, until the Chinese lockdown was clearly working, then China was a totalitarian hellhole, until the West had to impose similar measures. Now it has resurrected again because China should not have just shut down 60M people but stopped all flights to Europe, that apparently wasn't possible for the recipient countries to do themselves. It's like blaming Italy for the flights to Ireland on the postponed 6 nations weekend, but not Ireland.
Then once the W.H.O said the China was getting to grips with the virus Dr Tedros was "imposed on the W.H.O" by China who controlled the purse strings of the W.H.O. In fact the W.H.O gets its main funding from the US -- which is why Trump is threatening to withhold it -- and the election was behind closed doors and there's no indication from the reports in 2017 that he is China's man.
China is now accused of not acting fast enough, so a narrative that accused them of being totalitarian is now retrospectively accusing then of being not totalitarian enough quickly enough.
Then they sent PPE equipment ( unlike the US who tried to stop it from getting to Europe) and the fact that some were not perfect becomes the main news. This is of course produced output, mostly by the deep state who have "journalists", particularly on the web, in their pockets. Funny then that Trump supporters are onboard this time.
The problem with listening to the propaganda from a country where 100M people believe in the rapture and the rest believe that the world should basically look like the US, is that these nutcases are happy to make the world burn to get their way. Even more so than it is already, in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Venezuela, Bolivia and more. Belligerence against Russia and China. Hatred of Europe. A vile country. They will nuke the world if they could.
* To get an example of how the narrative is controlled look at the similarity of posts across many months on the phrase "China's Chernoybl"
https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+chernoybl&oq=china%27s+chernoybl&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.5442j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Valid points. This is a turning point. It should be the wake up call the western world needs to get good at stuff again as we've been caught out and looked cr"" when the SH"" hit the fan. Saying we are the bestest and most honest isn't working anymore. We need to up our game.0 -
Wibbs, the world's expert on China from the comfort of his living room.
What's interesting here is not the incident, but how this incident ( one of tens of thousands if not more of racially charged events on any one day in the world) becomes main news. Generally there's something else being hidden when the US gets it propaganda arm in gear like this, and it seems to be a reaction to the racist campaign from Taiwan against Dr Tedros.
Very easy to spot. The "China is lying about the numbers" campaign happened on the very first day that the US figures exceeded the Chinese. The "China's Chernobyl" was the main narrative in January, until the Chinese lockdown was clearly working, then China was a totalitarian hellhole, until the West had to impose similar measures. Now it has resurrected again because China should not have just shut down 60M people but stopped all flights to Europe, that apparently wasn't possible for the recipient countries to do themselves. It's like blaming Italy for the flights to Ireland on the postponed 6 nations weekend, but not Ireland.
Then once the W.H.O said the China was getting to grips with the virus Dr Tedros was "imposed on the W.H.O" by China who controlled the purse strings of the W.H.O. In fact the W.H.O gets its main funding from the US -- which is why Trump is threatening to withhold it -- and the election was behind closed doors and there's no indication from the reports in 2017 that he is China's man.
China is now accused of not acting fast enough, so a narrative that accused them of being totalitarian is now retrospectively accusing then of being not totalitarian enough quickly enough.
Then they sent PPE equipment ( unlike the US who tried to stop it from getting to Europe) and the fact that some were not perfect becomes the main news. This is of course produced output, mostly by the deep state who have "journalists", particularly on the web, in their pockets. Funny then that Trump supporters are onboard this time.
The problem with listening to the propaganda from a country where 100M people believe in the rapture and the rest believe that the world should basically look like the US, is that these nutcases are happy to make the world burn to get their way. Even more so than it is already, in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Venezuela, Bolivia and more. Belligerence against Russia and China. Hatred of Europe. A vile country. They will nuke the world if they could.
* To get an example of how the narrative is controlled look at the similarity of posts across many months on the phrase "China's Chernoybl"
https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+chernoybl&oq=china%27s+chernoybl&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.5442j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Straight out of the CCP propaganda playbook - we are victims of the nasty Americans spread nasty stories about us.0 -
It is actually difficult to know what your point is as your posts are on the whole pretty incoherent.
I assumed your point was that people are not believing the numbers in China but as Taiwan and S Korea have managed to beat it then you should believe Chinese numbers. Well my point was that these countries cannot be used to justify Chinese numbers.
So as I have got your point wrong, can you give me a coherent description for why the above story proves your point.
My point is simple.
New virus, China trying to work out what is is, behaves no different to how many countries would in same situation. Can't get a grip of it, within weeks went public, shared info, took drastic measures while still trying to work out how to control and treat. Mobilised on drastic measures. World watched. Asian couttries mobilised. Europe watched. Europe watched. Europe Watched. US watched. Europe watched. US watched. Europe watched. US watched. Europe watched. Virus arraived in increasign numbers. Europe watched. US watched. Numbers of deaths increased. EU locked down. US locked down. People died. Medical staff died. EU looked for equipment and PPE. US looked for equipment and PPE. People died. EU and US gave staff bin bags for PPE and coordianted claps. EU and US said it's all Chinas fault.0 -
What the fools brainwashed by western media don't get is that the majority of China's population is perfectly happy with their system of government so there will be no revolution.
What does need to be done though is to put polite but firm pressure on the Chinese government to stamp out certain practices such as the consumption of Animals that are not considered as part of the food chain anywhere else.(same for Vietnam and South Korea).
And also to stamp out the ridiculous Chinese traditional 'medicines' that use endangered animal body parts and are just pure idiotic quackery.
Doing both of those simple things will not only greatly reduce the risk of future pandemics but will also improve greatly China's now dreadful image on the world stage.
They need to follow the example now set by Shenzhen city which has banned not only consumption of wildlife but also of Cats and Dogs0 -
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cryptocurrency wrote: »My point is simple.
New virus, China trying to work out what is is, behaves no different to how many countries would in same situation. Can't get a grip of it, within weeks went public, shared info, took drastic measures while still trying to work out how to control and treat. Mobilised on drastic measures. World watched. Asian couttries mobilised. Europe watched. Europe watched. Europe Watched. US watched. Europe watched. US watched. Europe watched. US watched. Europe watched. Virus arraived in increasign numbers. Europe watched. US watched. Numbers of deaths increased. EU locked down. US locked down. People died. Medical staff died. EU looked for equipment and PPE. US looked for equipment and PPE. People died. EU and US gave staff bin bags for PPE and coordianted claps. EU and US said it's all Chinas fault.
Ok so the two Asian countries that mobilised the fastest were Taiwan and S Korea - who are both recognised as having managed this the best - no disagreement here. So how did they manage this - they ignored the b***s***t coming out of both China and WHO and took drastic action themselves in advance of both CCP and WHO.
If you want to start another thread about how some SE Asia countries managed this better than the West then feel free. Maybe a point of discussion in that thread could maybe that the West was too trusting of the WHO and CCP as we were never hit by SARs. Whereas the countries in SE Asia who were impacted by SARs last knew that the CCP were a bunch of lying b*****ds
This thread however is THE BIG CHINESE LIE is about how China covered up and continues to cover the scale and severity of covid.0 -
What the fools brainwashed by western media don't get is that the majority of China's population is perfectly happy with their system of government so there will be no revolution.
What does need to be done though is to put polite but firm pressure on the Chinese government to stamp out certain practices such as the consumption of Animals that are not considered as part of the food chain anywhere else.(same for Vietnam and South Korea).
And also to stamp out the ridiculous Chinese traditional 'medicines' that use endangered animal body parts and are just pure idiotic quackery.
Doing both of those simple things will not only greatly reduce the risk of future pandemics but will also improve greatly China's now dreadful image on the world stage.
They need to follow the example now set by Shenzhen city which has banned not only consumption of wildlife but also of Cats and Dogs
The bit in bold - how is that measured?0 -
Straight out of the CCP propaganda playbook - we are victims of the nasty Americans spread nasty stories about us.
Care to send me a copy? Would love to read it. :rolleyes:
Why is it that any rational objection is met with this kind of comment? I don't particularly agree with FVP3 about everything he said, but I'd appreciate many of his points. A very well written and logical post.
And US based misinformation through the media is a thing. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. I love the way that we all dismissed many US media reports (on other threads) before the virus happened, but now suddenly, US media is a beacon of truth and well-checked reports. US media lies quite a lot for political reasons... that's the normal run of things. It might not be government based propaganda, but US media is incredibly biased to their own view of things rather than simply reporting the facts.
Why be so dismissive of his claims?0 -
Ok so the two Asian countries that mobilised the fastest were Taiwan and S Korea - who are both recognised as having managed this the best - no disagreement here. So how did they manage this - they ignored the b***s***t coming out of both China and WHO and took drastic action themselves in advance of both CCP and WHO.
If you want to start another thread about how some SE Asia countries managed this better than the West then feel free. Maybe a point of discussion in that thread could maybe that the West was too trusting of the WHO and CCP as we were never hit by SARs. Whereas the countries in SE Asia who were impacted by SARs last knew that the CCP were a bunch of lying b*****ds
This thread however is THE BIG CHINESE LIE is about how China covered up and continues to cover the scale and severity of covid.
So you don't like the inconvnient truth. This thread is set up by those who want to blame everything on China and when any poster points out the giant holes in that argument it doesn't go down well.
Fact remains, it's all connected. Some posters here, including myself, look at the time frames released and seem to think as it was a new virus, the time frame of first deaths to the global release of information was actually very fast, and likely much faster then it would have been by many of the shambolic departments we also have where we all live. Anyone who thinks the info would have been handled faster and better is smoking something.
The china lies narrative is one of the poorest efforts to deflect blame away from something I have ever seen. The time frame that these people claim they they could have changed it is a couple of weeks. It also doesn't stack up at all when you see the most humiliating handling of the crisis and the most shambolic response to any crisis in the west in living memory.
Saying that, under the circumstances, Ireland has actually looked a lot better then many of the countires around us, the so called big boys.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Care to send me a copy? Would love to read it. :rolleyes:
Why is it that any rational objection is met with this kind of comment? I don't particularly agree with FVP3 about everything he said, but I'd appreciate many of his points. A very well written and logical post.
And US based misinformation through the media is a thing. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. I love the way that we all dismissed many US media reports (on other threads) before the virus happened, but now suddenly, US media is a beacon of truth and well-checked reports. US media lies quite a lot for political reasons... that's the normal run of things. It might not be government based propaganda, but US media is incredibly biased to their own view of things rather than simply reporting the facts.
Why be so dismissive of his claims?
From the story about racism in China recently -
Eric Olander, the managing editor of The China Africa Project website and podcast, said China was struggling to respond to the crisis because the usual tactics of dismissing allegations as “rumours” do not hold up in the face of video and photographic evidence on social media.
“Furthermore, the accusation that western media is behind this also isn’t gaining much traction, because the vast majority of the news coverage about the crisis is taking place in Africa, and not in the US or Europe,” Olander said.
“The problem here is that the Chinese are using a technocratic approach to respond to a hugely emotional issue for Africans who feel betrayed and disrespected by the sight of so many migrants being forced to sleep on the streets and endure maltreatment by landlords and local authorities.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/chinese-official-claims-racial-targeting-reasonable-concerns0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »So you don't like the inconvnient truth. This thread is set up by those who want to blame everything on China and when any poster points out the giant holes in that argument it doesn't go down well.
Fact remains, it's all connected. Some posters here, including myself, look at the time frames released and seem to think as it was a new virus, the time frame of first deaths to the global release of information was actually very fast, and likely much faster then it would have been by many of the shambolic departments we also have where we all live. Anyone who thinks the info would have been handled faster and better is smoking something.
The china lies narrative is one of the poorest efforts to deflect blame away from something I have ever seen. The time frame that these people claim they they could have changed it is a couple of weeks. It also doesn't stack up at all when you see the most humiliating handling of the crisis and the most shambolic response to any crisis in the west in living memory.
Saying that, under the circumstances, Ireland has actually looked a lot better then many of the countires around us, the so called big boys.
Sorry I must have missed the bit in bold - how does Taiwan's and S Korea's actions blow holes in China's responsibility for some of this crisis0 -
Sorry I must have missed the bit in bold - how does Taiwan's and S Korea's actions blow holes in China's responsibility for some of this crisis
You could argue that the actions of Taiwan and S Korea have no difference to the other regions of the PRC. In fact there is closer and more populous regions which handled it better then both them countries.0 -
From the story about racism in China recently -
Eric Olander, the managing editor of The China Africa Project website and podcast, said China was struggling to respond to the crisis because the usual tactics of dismissing allegations as “rumours” do not hold up in the face of video and photographic evidence on social media.
“Furthermore, the accusation that western media is behind this also isn’t gaining much traction, because the vast majority of the news coverage about the crisis is taking place in Africa, and not in the US or Europe,” Olander said.
“The problem here is that the Chinese are using a technocratic approach to respond to a hugely emotional issue for Africans who feel betrayed and disrespected by the sight of so many migrants being forced to sleep on the streets and endure maltreatment by landlords and local authorities.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/chinese-official-claims-racial-targeting-reasonable-concerns
Well done, you've just deflected by introducing extra variables. Perhaps go back to FVP3's post, your response, my post and deal with that?
Then you can expand on it to include extra information beyond the initial argument. No?0 -
What the fools brainwashed by western media don't get is that the majority of China's population is perfectly happy with their system of government so there will be no revolution.
You and I have no way of measuring that.
Take a Chinese person aside, get to know them, and from experience a majority have misgivings about the party and how they wield power. That has been my, admittedly anecdotal experience. Many of them know a different way is possible for China, but even if they had firm convictions about it, there is little to no avenue to speak up, particularly in the last decade. A majority is certainly cowed into silence, but that's not to say a majority agrees with the party.
Even long-time party loyalists get shut-down if they don't tow the party line.
The easiest and most expedient way of getting as many people onside in a time of crisis and when the system is showing fragility, is to pull the nationalist card and blame 'foreign forces.'
I had the pleasure of being in-country for the run-up to the 70th anniversary of the PRC last year. I only saw the preparations as I had to go home before the big day. The set-up I saw would make the Nuremburg Rally blush. I don't care what anyone says, the cult of personality developing around Xi is creepy in the extreme. Anyone who can't see the danger in it, well, know your history.0 -
What the fools brainwashed by western media don't get is that the majority of China's population is perfectly happy with their system of government so there will be no revolution.
What they don't get is that the Chinese are a very practical people. The government controls the military and the police. Any revolution would be met with the harshest possible responses. It would be put down hard, with very little chance of success.
That's what those advocating change won't accept. Sitting far away, they won't have to face the death that would come of it, except to post comments about how bad "China" is.What does need to be done though is to put polite but firm pressure on the Chinese government to stamp out certain practices such as the consumption of Animals that are not considered as part of the food chain anywhere else.(same for Vietnam and South Korea).
It's already happening without foreign pressure. Laws have already been implemented to add to the existing laws... enforcing those laws is the problem considering the culture of China... another thing that people don't really appreciate. They see a totalitarian state and think every changes when the party says so.. it doesn't.And also to stamp out the ridiculous Chinese traditional 'medicines' that use endangered animal body parts and are just pure idiotic quackery.
Not going to happen. It's that simple.Doing both of those simple things will not only greatly reduce the risk of future pandemics but will also improve greatly China's now dreadful image on the world stage.
They need to follow the example now set by Shenzhen city which has banned not only consumption of wildlife but also of Cats and Dogs
Nothing is going to improve China's image because it's still got concentration camps, does ethnic cleansing, is a brutal regime, etc. And they know that. They'll change for themselves and their own needs... not because the west pushes for change.
Shenzhen banned such things, but I guarantee that it's still going on in the suburbs or the poorer parts of the city. Shenzhen should never be considered an example of moderisation, and good behavior. It's a city with massive inequalities, and great poverty once you step away from the financial zones.0 -
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You and I have no way of measuring that.
Take a Chinese person aside, get to know them, and from experience a majority have misgivings about the party and how they wield power. That has been my, admittedly anecdotal experience. Many of them know a different way is possible for China, but even if they had firm convictions about it, there is little to no avenue to speak up, particularly in the last decade. A majority is certainly cowed into silence, but that's not to say a majority agrees with the party.
Even long-time party loyalists get shut-down if they don't tow the party line.
The easiest and most expedient way of getting as many people onside in a time of crisis and when the system is showing fragility, is to pull the nationalist card and blame 'foreign forces.'
I had the pleasure of being in-country for the run-up to the 70th anniversary of the PRC last year. I only saw the preparations as I had to go home before the big day. The set-up I saw would make the Nuremburg Rally blush. I don't care what anyone says, the cult of personality developing around Xi is creepy in the extreme. Anyone who can't see the danger in it, well, know your history.
I've been to the 60th and 70th anniversary parades in Beijing. Completely agree with you.0 -
You and I have no way of measuring that.
Take a Chinese person aside, get to know them, and from experience a majority have misgivings about the party and how they wield power. That has been my, admittedly anecdotal experience. Many of them know a different way is possible for China, but even if they had firm convictions about it, there is little to no avenue to speak up, particularly in the last decade. A majority is certainly cowed into silence, but that's not to say a majority agrees with the party.
Even long-time party loyalists get shut-down if they don't tow the party line.
The easiest and most expedient way of getting as many people onside in a time of crisis and when the system is showing fragility, is to pull the nationalist card and blame 'foreign forces.'
I had the pleasure of being in-country for the run-up to the 70th anniversary of the PRC last year. I only saw the preparations as I had to go home before the big day. The set-up I saw would make the Nuremburg Rally blush. I don't care what anyone says, the cult of personality developing around Xi is creepy in the extreme. Anyone who can't see the danger in it, well, know your history.
I've had the same conversations and was surprised to hear it was not top of their agenda. They do see China as different due to its population and it has been said that the only place they can compare it too is India, the worlds biggest democracy. At this point they tend to laugh and say India is a complete mess and they don't want to be anything like it.0 -
Wibbs, the world's expert on China from the comfort of his living room.
What's interesting here is not the incident, but how this incident ( one of tens of thousands if not more of racially charged events on any one day in the world) becomes main news. Generally there's something else being hidden when the US gets it propaganda arm in gear like this, and it seems to be a reaction to the racist campaign from Taiwan against Dr Tedros.
This is story did not originate in the West but in Africa. Apparently a lot of Africans were fooled into believing they were China's special friend. Maybe the actions have been a wake-up callVery easy to spot. The "China is lying about the numbers" campaign happened on the very first day that the US figures exceeded the Chinese. The "China's Chernobyl" was the main narrative in January, until the Chinese lockdown was clearly working, then China was a totalitarian hellhole, until the West had to impose similar measures. Now it has resurrected again because China should not have just shut down 60M people but stopped all flights to Europe, that apparently wasn't possible for the recipient countries to do themselves. It's like blaming Italy for the flights to Ireland on the postponed 6 nations weekend, but not Ireland.
Not just Europe and the US but all around the world. Why is this so bad in Iran another special friend of China. The health minister there - Iran obviously not a Western client state, described Chinese numbers as a "sick joke". Why would an ally of China say that?Then once the W.H.O said the China was getting to grips with the virus Dr Tedros was "imposed on the W.H.O" by China who controlled the purse strings of the W.H.O. In fact the W.H.O gets its main funding from the US -- which is why Trump is threatening to withhold it -- and the election was behind closed doors and there's no indication from the reports in 2017 that he is China's man.
Here is a story about WHO and coronavirus some quotes for you -
John MacKenzie, the WHO’s emergency committee adviser, told me that the organisation was “a little misled” about the Wuhan outbreak. He says that by the time the government alerted the WHO on 31 December, scientists in China had already determined via genome sequencing that the outbreak was caused by coronavirus. Yet the government didn’t confirm that until 7 January and the full genome sequence was not officially shared until 12 January. “That’s very slow,” MacKenzie told me. “For at least two weeks, we could have been making far more kits and so on for testing.” MacKenzie added that the number of cases officially declared by the Chinese in the first week – 59 in the week ending 5 January – was “nowhere near as many cases as you’d expect”. (The statistics released by the Chinese government continue to be questioned, with some reports suggesting they may have seriously understated the number of coronavirus deaths.)
Despite mounting frustrations – in mid-January, China also refused the WHO’s request to send a team of scientific observers to Hubei province, the centre of the outbreak – Tedros has never come close to doing what Brundtland did and calling China out.
Elected as WHO director general in July 2017, Tedros was supported by a bloc of African and Asian countries, including China, which has considerable influence with those members.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/apr/10/world-health-organization-who-v-coronavirus-why-it-cant-handle-pandemicChina is now accused of not acting fast enough, so a narrative that accused them of being totalitarian is now retrospectively accusing then of being not totalitarian enough quickly enough.
China is being accused of lying about the scale and severity of covid and of being happy to export the patriotic virus as the internal China messaging took priority over allThen they sent PPE equipment ( unlike the US who tried to stop it from getting to Europe) and the fact that some were not perfect becomes the main news. This is of course produced output, mostly by the deep state who have "journalists", particularly on the web, in their pockets. Funny then that Trump supporters are onboard this time.
The problem with listening to the propaganda from a country where 100M people believe in the rapture and the rest believe that the world should basically look like the US, is that these nutcases are happy to make the world burn to get their way. Even more so than it is already, in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Venezuela, Bolivia and more. Belligerence against Russia and China. Hatred of Europe. A vile country. They will nuke the world if they could.
* To get an example of how the narrative is controlled look at the similarity of posts across many months on the phrase "China's Chernoybl"
https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+chernoybl&oq=china%27s+chernoybl&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.5442j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Nasty Americans, nasty nasty Americans0 -
Hello. I can't post links yet as I'm a new arrival. But have been reading boards avidly for a few months. Quarantedium brought me here, you might say.
The article "The Chinese Communist Party’s culture of corruption and repression has cost lives around the world" from The Globe & Mail (Canada) is really worth a read. Google it.
One of the authors is Irwin Cotler, chair of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, emeritus professor of law at McGill University, and *former justice minister and attorney-general of Canada.*
Quote:
There is authoritative and compelling evidence that if President Xi Jinping’s Chinese Communist Party (CCP) had intervened and reported on its coronavirus outbreak three weeks earlier, transmission of COVID-19 could have been reduced significantly around the world. One study, from the University of Southampton, even suggested transmission could have been reduced by 95 per cent.
For 40 days, Mr. Xi’s CCP concealed, destroyed, falsified and fabricated information about the rampant spread of COVID-19 through its massive state-sanctioned surveillance and suppression of data; misrepresentation of information; silencing and criminalizing of dissent; and the disappearance of whistleblowers – all of which reflect the breadth of criminality and corruption in the party.
****
This is life and death stuff, which makes civil discourse about it difficult.
Some views of mine:
It's not either/or. The CCP can be a corrupt untrustworthy entity. And the West can have added their own incompetence and lack of trustworthiness on top of it.
E.g., it's possible that China lied and also that Trump is a thick f*ck who added another layer of unecessary suffering to the mix.
This doesn't change the origin of the virus, nor the CCP's criminal role in the whole affair.
Also, apologists for the CCP are everywhere. I believe these useful idiots to be a threat to our way of life. The CCP should be punished.
Embassy operatives are everywhere too. They will cry racism and xenophobia. They will tell you to sort out your own country's problems. They will divert, deflect and cast blame everywhere except at the CCP.
Sorry for rant, but final point is perhaps most important... it is crucial to separate out the chinese people from the CCP.
Don't be afraid to call out the CCP and its operatives and apologists for what they are.. you would be doing the Western world and the Chinese people a favour.0 -
To Klaz, you say enforcing laws is the problem and I agree with there..but when they set their minds to enforcing laws it gets done and in a gloves off manner.
For example they don't have much of a drug problem compared to other countries, the firing squads have seen to that.
Thats one of the advantages of a totalitarian system...anything thats seen as national sabotage can be ruthlessly destroyed.
And the viruses coming from the wildlife trade surely now fit that criteria.
Also China is more bothered about it's international image than you seem to think, persuasion from its trading partners around the world will have a positive effect on this issue.
Threats and insults though will have the opposite effect.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Well done, you've just deflected by introducing extra variables. Perhaps go back to FVP3's post, your response, my post and deal with that?
Then you can expand on it to include extra information beyond the initial argument. No?
Just done - made a couple of points and am waiting on your response.0 -
An American owner of a pizza chain in Guangzhou and Shenzhen has opened up about instructions he has received from the local government not to admit foreigners, and particularly black people, into his restaurants.
Lol, imagine the Gardai showing up at your local Chinese restaurant ordering them not to serve Chinese people.
It would be funny if it wasn't so disturbing.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B--n4FPjBmB/?igshid=1qrkv6q4w3zae
pfft, so that's the source. One guy on instagram saying that he the police said to not to serve foreigners. Particularly black people. This becomes world news.
And what's that - an Instagram photo of a facebook page?
Sheeple be Sheeple.0 -
http://ibb.co/HB51N0T
Worked over the last few weeks....post is the 11th of January. This now takes us into december. Hmmmm0 -
This is story did not originate in the West but in Africa. Apparently a lot of Africans were fooled into believing they were China's special friend. Maybe the actions have been a wake-up call
Eh, no it didn't. Its clearly some instagram post of some American. Africans like China in general.Not just Europe and the US but all around the world. Why is this so bad in Iran another special friend of China. The health minister there - Iran obviously not a Western client state, described Chinese numbers as a "sick joke". Why would an ally of China say that?
I don't know but he is probably wrong. As I said the before the only argument against the Chinese figures is an argument to incredulity. Which is exactly what we get for all countries people don't like, or are doing ok. Nobody here trusted the German figures. We all accept the US figures though.Here is a story about WHO and coronavirus some quotes for you -
All quotes from one article and one member. In fact the official response from the W.H.O is that China acted promptly. By either Dec 31st or Jan 12th, is long before there was any outbreak in the West.China is being accused of lying about the scale and severity of covid and of being happy to export the patriotic virus as the internal China messaging took priority over all
FFS, what does that even mean. The W.H.O and China told the world about the Corona Virus well before there was a known case in the west. Even if you think Jan 12 was tardy in terms of sequencing the genome, it was still enough time for the west to act. And it seems pretty fast to me. As far I as know SARS took months to sequence.Nasty Americans, nasty nasty Americans
Well, yes, unless you are pro-genocide and continuous wars and destruction the US is clearly a nasty country.0 -
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Anyway, while China was closing down wuhan, this is what was happening in the US
In late January, the first confirmed American case of the coronavirus had landed in her area. Critical questions needed answers: Had the man infected anyone else? Was the deadly virus already lurking in other communities and spreading?
As luck would have it, Dr. Chu had a way to monitor the region. For months, as part of a research project into the flu, she and a team of researchers had been collecting nasal swabs from residents experiencing symptoms throughout the Puget Sound region.
To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China, where the infection began.
from here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html
This is all US driven deflection of their own failures, aligned with the US hatred of all countries that might challenge it someday.0
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