The Chinese Big Lie

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

Such as? I mean the application of international law.. and how you would enforce it without sparking a nuclear war? You are talking about the absolute leaders of a nation.

Don't you find it a bit hypocritical to go after China, but Bush Jnr (or his administration) was never punished for the invasion of Iraq, or the lies told to the international community, which has resulted in so much death?

I would like to personally rip Bush, Blair and rest of those mass-murderers a new one. But I'm not going to play "look over there."



For your first question.. that's above my pay grade. It's an exploratory suggestion motivated by a desire to avoid collectively punishing the Chinese people.

thebaz

what I feared and hoped as just as a conspiracy, now looks possibly like a lab based virus - China have serious questions to answer , given the havoc that has been set on the world - and we still dont know what to believe from ther corrupt regime.

and, if these allegations are true, WHO and Dr. Tedros will be shown up as a partisan sham, for ther praise of China handling, back in late January/ early Feb.

archer22

Escaped lab virus and 5G masts caused corvid-19 is believed by many in the west.

And Rhino horn and Tiger body parts is believed by many to be medicinal in China.

Jesus both sides are as stupid as each other!

the.red.baron

lads a big 5G/Chemtrails IF on this conspiracy theory

2u2me

Kivaro wrote: »

Also reported on CNN this morning, was the news that it appears that Chinese authorities sat on a critical report for at least 7 days, while telling its citizens and the world that the virus did not have the capability for human-to-human transmissions. A leaked teleconference memo talked about the "sobering" reality of what was actually happening with clusters in Wuhan, which confirmed human-to-human transmission, but they did not share this information for 7 days.

I'm sure that the usual posters defending China on the various Covid threads will be on here shortly. Expect to see the word "Trump" to pop up in order to deflect and derail the topic.

Here was me a few days ago

2u2me wrote: »

Interestingly it refers to an online lecture that Shi did last month. In it she describes how the CCP knew about H2H transmission for 1 week before they announced on 20th December to the world.

I guess this is the week everyone is blaming China for. I would say a large amount of blame can be placed on our western goverments imbecilic inaction for the 2 months after that.

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

I would like to personally rip Bush, Blair and rest of those mass-murderers a new one. But I'm not going to play "look over there."

Why not? The West cannot take the high moral ground if it is unwilling to apply similar standards to themselves. Doing so means that they have no credibility with other non-western nations. Image is important, and the image of western powers is not very positive these days.

For your first question.. that's above my pay grade. It's an exploratory suggestion motivated by a desire to avoid collectively punishing the Chinese people.

Ahh... ok. No idea of how to implement it... which means it's an empty statement. The obstacles to such a suggestion are very clear, which is why I was wondering how you would enforce it. There have been many similar statements on these threads, but little practical idea of how to actually enforce such a thing.

12trackmind

archer22 wrote: »

Jesus both sides are as stupid as each other!

haha good point... up to a point. Both groups would be regarded as twits by many in both regions.



In my experience, virtue, intelligence, decency, malevolence and stupidity are evenly distributed around the world and have more to do with the individual than the region.



Still chuckling in agreement with your post tho.

Yurt2

archer22 wrote: »

Escaped lab virus and 5G masts caused corvid-19 is believed by many in the west.

And Rhino horn and Tiger body parts is believed by many to be medicinal in China.

Jesus both sides are as stupid as each other!

I don't believe anyone is going down the 5G route in this thread.

We need to keep our head screwed on, a research lab studying precisely these types of viruses a matter of a couple of blocks away from the market claimed initially to be the source really ought not be discounted at this stage.

We don't have a smoking gun, but there's a strange smell eminating from the CCP and the supression of research into the source. See the Fudan University letter that was accidentally published.

Rhino horns and bear paws have little to do with the matter at hand, and you're playing silly buggers going down that path.

Until we get a straight answer that can be verified by politically neutral experts, I don't think the lab can be taken off the table. Put whatever percentage likelihood on it you like.

silverharp

The lab seems more plausible , the chances of bats in a major city seem low. The chance of a bad peeing on techie because of shoddy standards seem more plausible frankly

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not? The West cannot take the high moral ground if it is unwilling to apply similar standards to themselves. Doing so means that they have no credibility with other non-western nations. Image is important, and the image of western powers is not very positive these days.



Ahh... ok. No idea of how to implement it... which means it's an empty statement. The obstacles to such a suggestion are very clear, which is why I was wondering how you would enforce it. There have been many similar statements on these threads, but little practical idea of how to actually enforce such a thing.

Why are you more exercised by past events than current events? Extraordinary.



Well no one has a clear idea of what to do. You seem to be suggesting that there should be no punishment for the leaders of the CCP? Thankfully, some brave souls in CHina are speaking out. More power to them and less to the "look over there" brigade, I say.



Dont you give a hoot about the suffering the CCP have put the Chinese people through from the 'Great Leap Forward' (40+ million dead) to today (who knows how many dead, beacuse state agents constantly obscure and play the "sort your own country out" and "look over there" games)?

2u2me

silverharp wrote: »

The lab seems more plausible , the chances of bats in a major city seem low. The chance of a bad peeing on techie because of shoddy standards seem more plausible frankly

How is the lab more plausible?


The best theory we have is this came from bats; and if that is the case they require an intermediat animal to pass through such as the pangolin. Bat pee on a techie just doesn't cut it.

Unless you make another jump of logic to say they the bats had a experimental coronavirus on them. In this jump you must also assume bad conditions in the lab, in a lab where they are working on mutated virus. Come on.... tinfoil hat off....

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

Why are you more exercised by past events than current events? Extraordinary.

You're reaching. Nothing to base such an opinion on.

Well no one has a clear idea of what to do. You seem to be suggesting that there should be no punishment for the leaders of the CCP? Thankfully, some brave souls in CHina are speaking out. More power to them and less to the "look over there" brigade, I say.

No punishment? I'm of the opinion that it's a temper tantrum, and a sign of ranting on the internet. It ignores the practical considerations of applying such a punishment, and, more importantly, the consequences of such an action...

I see little actual justification for such a punishment considering the behavior of other countries, and I feel it's the passing of the buck, in an effort to shift blame. I also find it slightly ridiculous, because if the CCP was to have been punished, surely it's application of concentration camps or ethnic cleansing should have caused it to happen already.

Dont you give a hoot about the suffering the CCP have put the Chinese people through from the 'Great Leap Forward' (40+ million dead) to today (who knows how many dead, beacuse state agents constantly obscure and play the "sort your own country out" and "look over there" games?

I live in China.. I suspect I give a greater hoot about the CCP and it's effects on Chinese people than you do. :rolleyes:

As for "look over there".. I'm interested in a balanced viewpoint.. rather than these double standards that seem to be all the rage these days.

the.red.baron

Yurt! wrote: »

I don't believe anyone is going down the 5G route in this thread.

We need to keep our head screwed on, a research lab studying precisely these types of viruses a matter of a couple of blocks away from the market claimed initially to be the source really ought not be discounted at this stage.

We don't have a smoking gun, but there's a strange smell eminating from the CCP and the supression of research into the source. See the Fudan University letter that was accidentally published.

Rhino horns and bear paws have little to do with the matter at hand, and you're playing silly buggers going down that path.

Until we get a straight answer that can be verified by politically neutral experts, I don't think the lab can be taken off the table. Put whatever percentage likelihood on it you like.

thats exactly where this is going


you look at who is pushing the agenda, and even they are just at the MAYBE stage

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing to base such an opinion on.

You've avoided the questions, skillfully mind.



But since you live in China, I won't put any pressure on you to actually straight out express your views on the CCP. Obviously you can't do that, lest you be defunded, taken in for a friendly re-educational chat with the police, and/or disappeared. In that context I completely understand your deflections.



As for double standards, look at my posts. I try to avoid double standards and generalizations like the plague itself. I have equal scorn for CCP leaders and the likes of Bush, Cheney et al.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

As for "look over there".. I'm interested in a balanced viewpoint.. rather than these double standards that seem to be all the rage these days.

This is a fine line I've been threading for a while too. At a few points posters pointed out to me I may be crossing the line, I pulled back and appreciated when they said it to me. There is unfair criticism for China, but a lot of it fair criticism also. Much of it is being conflated together.

For us to have an effect on China's behaviour would require a grassroot boycott. The problem is I don't think we could live that way of life, we all want the easy life. We all want a government to do the policing for us(holding China to account), when the power is in our own hands not use their cheap smart phones.

12trackmind

2u2me wrote: »

For us to have an effect on China's behaviour would require a grassroot boycott. The problem is I don't think we could live that way of life, we all want the easy life. We all want a government to do the policing for us(holding China to account), when the power is in our own hands not use their cheap smart phones.

My mind goes to a boycott too, but that would be a form of collective punishment, no?

Yurt2

the.red.baron wrote: »

thats exactly where this is going


you look at who is pushing the agenda, and even they are just at the MAYBE stage

I'm sorry I don't follow you.

If you're conflating Gemma O'Doherty 5G barmyness with having a degree of suspicion about the lab, I really believe that's silly.

Off the top of my head, in the media I have read of experts from UC Berkeley and Rutgers that the Wuhan labs should be looked at and shouldn't be discounted.

I suppose they're crackpots too now.

2u2me

12trackmind wrote: »

My mind goes to a boycott too, but that would be a form of collective punishment, no?

I wouldn't call it punishment. More sending a message. Change your ways.

If we did it at a government level (e.g. sanctions) this is not good for anyone.

the.red.baron

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm sorry I don't follow you.

If you're conflating Gemma O'Doherty 5G barmyness with having a degree of suspicion about the lab, I really believe that's silly.

Off the top of my head, in the media I have read of experts from UC Berkeley and Rutgers that the Wuhan labs should be looked at and shouldn't be discounted.

I suppose they're crackpots too now.

experts in what? Speculation?


Cause that's all this is

Yurt2

the.red.baron wrote: »

experts in what? Speculation?


Cause that's all this is

They were both scientists in virology at two of the finest universities in the US

Have it your way, equate asking questions about deadly virus research labs in proximity to a claimed site of a pandemic outbreak to the moon landing conspiracy theory.

I hold that you're being silly, but carry on regardless.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

They were both scientists in virology at two of the finest universities in the US

Have it your way, equate asking questions about deadly virus research labs in proximity to a claimed site of a pandemic outbreak to the moon landing conspiracy theory.

I hold that you're being silly, but carry on regardless.

Applying Occam's razor, why the need for the lab when it is easily explained by the wet market?

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

You've avoided the questions, skillfully mind.

Actually, I answered each of your points. Care to point out where I didn't?

But since you live in China, I won't put any pressure on you to actually straight out express your views on the CCP.

Sure, you can... you simply won't accept them because they don't agree with you.. I'm back in Ireland right now. Nothing is stopping me from expressing my genuine opinions, and being in China wouldn't stop me either. Since we're on a BBS rather than my speaking with Chinese officials, or someone who could report my words.

Obviously you can't do that, lest you be defunded, taken in for a friendly re-educational chat with the police, and/or disappeared. In that context I completely understand your deflections.

Absolute rubbish. I'm a lecturer in a state university, and have voiced my opinions publicly regarding Chinese behavior in many spheres. While I have been investigated for disruptive speech, the authorities accepted my reasoning for doing so, since I'm not political. They're not as unreasonable as you seem to believe.

Posters here have some really bizarre ideas of what goes on in China... knowing the boundaries for acceptable behavior is important, but your belief in such consequences for breaching those boundaries is extremely ignorant of reality.

And I haven't deflected. I directly addressed your points.

As for double standards, look at my posts. I try to avoid double standards and generalizations like the plague itself. I have equal scorn for CCP leaders and the likes of Bush, Cheney et al.

And yet, you'll push for a complete focus on China and seek to dismiss references to behavior of western nations that somewhat justifies CCP actions.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Applying Occam's razor, why the need for the lab when it is easily explained by the wet market?

We have about as much evidence for the wet-market as we do for a lab leak at this juncture. More scientists are coming down on the side of the wet-market theory over the lab-leak, but there are credible people who believe that the lab may be involved.

I'm not discounting either scenario at this stage.

Regrettably, we're dealing with a government that instinctively concretes over the truth if its not palatable.

wakka12

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Thought Swine Flu was from the US, same as AIDS

Swine flu was first reported in Mexico

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

We have about as much evidence for the wet-market as we do for a lab leak at this juncture. More scientists are coming down on the side of the wet-market theory over the lab-leak, but there are credible people who believe that the lab may be involved.

I'm not discounting either scenario at this stage.

Regrettably, we're dealing with a government that instinctively concretes over the truth if its not palatable.

It's equally possible that the CCP doesn't know where the virus came from. If the release from the lab wasn't detected, or covered up by staff there, or that there is no actual evidence to directly link the virus to the wet market. Without a concrete trail of evidence, it's all speculation. Might be done by experts, but without real evidence, the margin for error is huge.

Right now, there is no evidence to support any theory. There won't be until after the crisis is finished, and a proper investigation is undertaken. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to find the CCP suppressing any findings simply because of the reactions and speculation that has happened so far already. Sure, they might suppress the info, just for the sake of it, but... there's little to be gained by releasing info, since they're unlikely to be believed anyway.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

We have about as much evidence for the wet-market as we do for a lab leak at this juncture. More scientists are coming down on the side of the wet-market theory over the lab-leak, but there are credible people who believe that the lab may be involved.

I'm not discounting either scenario at this stage.

Regrettably, we're dealing with a government that instinctively concretes over the truth if its not palatable.

True enough, but there are way more assumptions we must make about the lab then the wet market.
Most known corona virus have come from bats. They require an intermediate animal to pass through. Perfect conditions in a wet market. No assumptions to make.

If you assume the lab was the source, then how do you get the intermediate animal? If you say there was intermediate animals in the lab, why would the Chinese have such lax conditions in a virus lab(This makes absolutely no sense). In order to study things like this, you need to cleanest of conditions, not only to protect your science but to eliminate risk from the outside population.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

True enough, but there are way more assumptions we must make about the lab then the wet market.
Most known corona virus have come from bats. They require an intermediate animal to pass through. Perfect conditions in a wet market. No assumptions to make.

If you assume the lab was the source, then how do you get the intermediate animal? If you say there was intermediate animals in the lab, why would the Chinese have such lax conditions in a virus lab(This makes absolutely no sense). In order to study things like this, you need to cleanest of conditions, not only to protect your science but to eliminate risk from the outside population.

Coronaviruses can be studied in labs without having intermediate animals hanging around. But as it happens, there is open source information about this lab using mice infected with a hybrid SARS virus that could be passed on to humans. What does this mean? F*cked if I know, and neither do you. But if serious scientists in the US from serious universities aren't ruling out the labs, then neither am I.

And we've just heard yesterday that the US science attaché had his concerns about the standards in the lab.

That was the express purpose of the lab. Collecting and studying highly communicable virus samples.

I think you're straying into the realms of speaking with authority about a realm of science you don't understand.

I'd be happy to see the lab debunked. That hasn't quite happened yet. But if it is the lab, and it remains in realms of possibility in minds of experts, I think we deserve an investigation.

Wibbs

2u2me wrote: »

True enough, but there are way more assumptions we must make about the lab then the wet market.
Most known corona virus have come from bats. They require an intermediate animal to pass through.

Nope. a) coronaviruses don't just come from bats, they're also present in birds and rodents even cattle and b) zoonotic viruses don't always require an intermediate animal. The various kinds of swine flu for example. Most of the time swine flu variants can only go from pig to human and not then go human to human, but every so often they can. A bat coronaviruses could directly infect a human and like flu might hit a dead end there as human to human wouldn't happen so easily, but then you get the occasional variant..

the.red.baron

Yurt! wrote: »

Coronaviruses can be studied in labs without having intermediate animals hanging around. But as it happens, there is open source information about this lab using mice infected with a hybrid SARS virus that could be passed on to humans. What does this mean? F*cked if I know, and neither do you. But if serious scientists in the US from serious universities aren't ruling out the labs, then neither am I.

And we've just heard yesterday that the US science attaché had his concerns about the standards in the lab.

That was the express purpose of the lab. Collecting and studying highly communicable virus samples.

I think you're straying into the realms of speaking with authority about a realm of science you don't understand.

I'd be happy to see the lab debunked. That hasn't quite happened yet. But if it is the lab, and it remains in realms of possibility in minds of experts, I think we deserve an investigation.

how do you debunk something like this, there are those out there who still think the moon landing was faked



do the chinese say it wasn't the lab, are they the experts


were these experts you mention ever at the lab?


the Chinese are trying to push the idea that it came from the US

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm a lecturer in a state university,

So you are in the pay of the CCP. The Upton Sinclair quote comes to mind — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

I am not going to get entangled in BS, sorry.



Lies, misrepsentation, deflection. Your posts are everything I seek to avoid.



As if the CCP don't know exactly who you are.. as if they aren't tracking every word you say, right now.



Belief in the safety of Ireland and the supposed anonymity of Boards in naive in the extreme.



Social credit score + 1000 though. You have to do what you have to do.



I've lived under an authoritartian (nominally 'western', BTW) regime. I know what you're doing and I understand. I have had to lie and defend the indefensible too.



Good luck to you, Sir. (I know you're a 'Sir' by all the huffing and puffing and expecting me to swallow your deflections and misrepresentations as facts, simply because you say it so )