The Chinese Big Lie

the.red.baron

12trackmind wrote: »

I am not going to get entangled in BS, sorry.



Lies, misrepsentation, deflection. Your posts are everything I seek to avoid.



As if the CCP don't know exactly who you are.. as if they aren't tracking every word you say, right now.



Belief in the safety of Ireland and the supposed anonymity of Boards in naive in the extreme.



Social credit score + 1000 though. You have to do what you have to do.



I've lived under an authoritartian (nominally 'western', BTW) regime. I know what you're doing and I understand. I have had to lie and defend the indefensible too.



Good luck to you, Sir. (I know you're a 'Sir' by all the huffing and puffing and expecting me to swallow your deflections and misrepresentations as facts, simply because you say it so )

all your 12 posts came from a chinese IP address FACT

12trackmind

the.red.baron wrote: »

all your 12 posts came from a chinese IP address FACT

Yep. We're mad into the aul Chinese IPs up my way. Well spotted.

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

I am not going to get entangled in BS, sorry.

Then don't post up BS and not expect to be argued against. :rolleyes:

What are you doing on boards if you're unwilling to defend your statements and actually engage in discussion?

because since my initial response, you have continuously dodged. without addressing my own points, or by making ignorant claims.

Lies, misrepsentation, deflection. Your posts are everything I seek to avoid.

What lies?
What misrepresentation?
Which is deflection?

You avoid specifics, and seek to dismiss (and borderline insult) rather than deal with the objections.

Perhaps twitter would be better medium for you to use? You might get your echo chamber of opinions there.

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

More huffing and puffing.

I refer to the Upton Sinclair quote I added to my previous post. You are, by your own admission, in the pay of the CCP.



And you were doing so well, appearing to be the voice of reason too. Oh well... you've been outed now. My work here is done.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

Coronaviruses can be studied in labs without having intermediate animals hanging around. But as it happens, there is open source information about this lab using mice infected with a hybrid SARS virus that could be passed on to humans. What does this mean? F*cked if I know, and neither do you. But if serious scientists in the US from serious universities aren't ruling out the labs, then neither am I.

That was the express purpose of the lab. Collecting and studying highly communicable virus samples.

I think you're straying into the realms of speaking with authority about a realm of science you don't understand.

Well no, I was just reposting information I had previously posted in this thread maybe you missed it here it is again, from American scientists.
But I guess next the story will be that Scripps Research are just pedalling the China lie also.

This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2's backbone -- its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

It definitely sounds more like you are the one pedalling conspiracy bull**** quite frankly.

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. a) coronaviruses don't just come from bats, they're also present in birds and rodents even cattle and b) zoonotic viruses don't always require an intermediate animal. The various kinds of swine flu for example. Most of the time swine flu variants can only go from pig to human and not then go human to human, but every so often they can. A bat coronaviruses could directly infect a human and like flu might hit a dead end there as human to human wouldn't happen so easily, but then you get the occasional variant..

Fair enough, I was talking about applying Occam's Razor. I was saying most, but sure it's possible, just not anywhere near as likely.

wakka12

cryptocurrency wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/confronting-coronavirus

Interesting view from inside China. Nothing new said but the general consensus is that China is on top of it. Mentions the inability to surpress info in this day and age and hospitals are fine, people out and about, no stories of hiding deaths..etc.

And how does that explain tens of thousands of urns being returned to families of coronavirus in Wuhan then

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

I refer to the Upton Sinclair quote I added to my previous post. You are, by your own admission, in the pay of the CCP.

You're being rather ignorant here..

And you were doing so well, appearing to be the voice of reason too. Oh well... you've been outed now. My work here is done.

Outed? By you? Hilarious. You're paranoid and delusional.

You haven't managed to discredit even one of the points I've made. Not one. Whereas your own statements have been shown to lack any real degree of depth, and that you feel the need to disrespect another poster rather than argue your own points.

2u2me

wakka12 wrote: »

And how does that explain tens of thousands of urns being returned to families of coronavirus in Wuhan then

How do you explain a temporary mortuary built at Birmingham Airport for 12,000 bodies on the 27th March when there was only 700 dead.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-temporary-mortuary-being-built-at-birmingham-airport-11964675

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

Outed? By you? Hilarious. You're paranoid and delusional.

No. By yourself. You have openly admitted that you are in the pay of the CCP.

So, not only are you being watched by the CCP now, you are being watched by other agencies. Many people don't take kindly to CCP operatives in the West.

And for what, Sir?

To win some irrelevant argument on an Internet message board? Boards kudos? Most imprudent.

Is it worth it?

I don't want to get you into further trouble, you can do that all by yourself, obviously. Genuinely though, good luck to you.

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

No. By yourself. You have openly admitted that you are in the pay of the CCP.

So.. by being a lecturer in a state university, I have become "in the pay of the CCP", and therefore. I've become a CCP operative?

Yup. Delusional.

Or simply trolling. Either way, it's obvious that you're not here for any kind of serious discussion.

12trackmind

Deleted User wrote: »

So.. by being a lecturer in a state university, I have become "in the pay of the CCP"

Well, yes. Who funds state universities in China? The little sisters of charity? The white house? Falun Gong? The Red Crescent?

The CCP pay your wages. Say it loud and say it proud.

And you live in Ireland. (One minute. China the next.)

Are you trying to attract heat? :pac:

No matter. You will be evaluated by western intelligence agencies. Let them decide what to do with you. I suspect you're a blowhard because nobody active in the intelligence services would be so well.... I bite my tongue.

This is like taking candy from a baby. It's boring and unethical. And with that in mind, it would be unkind of me to continue engaging with you.

So I won't. On a human level, good luck, but I'm done playing with you.

Kivaro

2u2me wrote: »

Applying Occam's razor, why the need for the lab when it is easily explained by the wet market?

So let's apply it. I have a different cut to it however.
There was a report published by Nature in 2015 that warned the world that it was a bad idea for the Chinese in Wuhan to be experimenting with Corinavirus and bats.
Roll on 5 years and now we have a worldwide deadly pandemic originating in the same city of Wuhan that will result in a massive death toll, possibly cause a Worldwide Great Depression, and will assuredly change all our lives forever.

Does it really matter though whether it was a wet market or lab?
Either way, both practices should stop immediately. The world has received Nature's warning.
Nobody is saying that the Chinese deliberately infected the world, but steps should be put in place to stop a possible repeat scenario.

Humilde

Hmmmmmm. Let me see now. On the one hand an innocent bat or pangolin. On the other hand, a brutal manipulating dictatorship with a track record of creating such deadly viruses in their laboratories, one of which happens to be in the same town as the epicentre of the outbreak. If I had to bet, I know what I'd be putting my money on. Trump is an awful langer but hes the only one asking any questions. The rest of the world leaders are afraid to ask these questions, possibly because in doing so, they may invite questions on their own mishandling and catastrophic tardiness in implementing the initial lockdowns. A report out in Spain yesterday says that had the Government shut the borders and implemented a lockdown one week earlier, then they would have reduced the deaths by 85%. Currently 19000 deaths in Spain so approx 16000 of these could have been avoided if the government had acted correctly. As we all know, the EU only closed its borders after Trump announced that the US was closing its own borders to Europe. And the virus had arrived in Europe well before the US. Its really damning.

quokula

Humilde wrote: »

Hmmmmmm. Let me see now. On the one hand an innocent bat or pangolin. On the other hand, a brutal manipulating dictatorship with a track record of creating such deadly viruses in their laboratories, one of which happens to be in the same town as the epicentre of the outbreak.

Or to rephrase. On one hand, nature, where every virus in history has come from and which every expert who knows what they're talking about says all the evidence clearly points to.

On the other hand, a movie-plot style science lab that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists are drawn to and disgraced politicians push in order to deflect from their own deficiencies.

Yurt2

quokula wrote: »

Or to rephrase. On one hand, nature, where every virus in history has come from and which every expert who knows what they're talking about says all the evidence clearly points to.

On the other hand, a movie-plot style science lab that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists are drawn to and disgraced politicians push in order to deflect from their own deficiencies.

Well that assertion is false clearly. We are nowhere near consensus on where this came from. The labs are very much in play, and many scientists of note would say so.

Humilde

quokula wrote: »

Or to rephrase. On one hand, nature, where every virus in history has come from and which every expert who knows what they're talking about says all the evidence clearly points to.

On the other hand, a movie-plot style science lab that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists are drawn to and disgraced politicians push in order to deflect from their own deficiencies.

Well. The evidence is not there.
Question: Is it possible that the virus came from the lab? Answer: Yes its possible.

I for one don't buy into the story that this killer virus suddenly came from a bat or a pangolin. I know the track record of the Chinese and its not pretty. More viruses coming from there than the holy fright. Asian Flu. Sars. Avian flu.
The African Swine Fever has wiped out their pig herd. Dont be fooled by the name. This virus has been used as a bio weapon in the past so there is every possibility that it came from another of Chinas virus laboritories.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

Well that assertion is false clearly. We are nowhere near consensus on where this came from. The labs are very much in play, and many scientists of note would say so.

Could you point me to where scientists disagree with this.

Research from the Scripps Research Institute suggest otherwise.

“They conclude that the virus is the product of natural evolution,” Golding adds, “ending any speculation about deliberate genetic engineering.”

Funding for the research was provided by the US National Institutes of Health, the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Wellcome Trust, the European Research Council, and an ARC Australian Laureate Fellowship.

12trackmind

12trackmind wrote: »

So I won't. On a human level, good luck, but I'm done playing with you.

Logic and reasoning ability of a 4 year old. :rolleyes:

Not to worry. We're both done with each other.

wakka12

silverharp wrote: »

The lab seems more plausible , the chances of bats in a major city seem low. The chance of a bad peeing on techie because of shoddy standards seem more plausible frankly

Animals are captured outside the city and brought into the city to be sold. The animal in question, Pangolin, likely interacted with bats while in the wild, or maybe while they were both held in the market in the city together.

2u2me

Kivaro wrote: »

So let's apply it. I have a different cut to it however.
There was a report published by Nature in 2015 that warned the world that it was a bad idea for the Chinese in Wuhan to be experimenting with Corinavirus and bats.
Roll on 5 years and now we have a worldwide deadly pandemic originating in the same city of Wuhan that will result in a massive death toll, possibly cause a Worldwide Great Depression, and will assuredly change all our lives forever.

Does it really matter though whether it was a wet market or lab?
Either way, both practices should stop immediately. The world has received Nature's warning.
Nobody is saying that the Chinese deliberately infected the world, but steps should be put in place to stop a possible repeat scenario.

The hilarious thing is that the Nature article that you are referring to has added this tagline to the front of their page perhaps you missed it

Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this story is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus.

https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787


Too easy; next??

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Could you point me to where scientists disagree with this.

Research from the Scripps Research Institute suggest otherwise.



Funding for the research was provided by the US National Institutes of Health, the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Wellcome Trust, the European Research Council, and an ARC Australian Laureate Fellowship.

"[biosecurity expert from Rutgers University's Waksman Institute of Microbiology] Professor Ebright also revealed that scientists at both the Chinese laboratories -the Centre for Disease Control- who studied the viruses are employing only level 2 security rather than the recommended level 4. This provides only minimal protection against infection of the people inside the laboratory and other lab workers.

It is especially critical to enhance biosecurity measures because virus collection, isolation, culture, or animal infection will pose a risk of infection to laboratory workers, and from them to the general public, Prof. Ebright warns.

He added that the evidence he saw left a basis to rule out the COVID-19 as made inside a laboratory, but there is no basis for ruling out that it is not a lab accident. "


https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25214/20200406/uk-fears-coronavirus-actually-leaked-china-lab.htm

You're welcome. And he's not the only one. Please don't ask for links again when you have functioning fingers to use Google.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

but there is no basis for ruling out that it is not a lab accident. "


https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/25214/20200406/uk-fears-coronavirus-actually-leaked-china-lab.htm

You're welcome. And he's not the only one. Please don't ask for links again when you have functioning fingers to use Google.

Are you for real? Your article from the 'science times' quotes

UK Fears Coronavirus Might Have Actually Been Leaked From a China Lab

and then goes onto quote a series of Daily Mail articles. It seems it did not even do it's own research.

Big fail mate.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Are you for real? Your article from the 'science times' quotes


and then goes onto quote a series of Daily Mail articles. It seems it did not even do it's own research.

Big fail mate.

He's a Harvard educated Microbiologist and Professor of same at Rutgers University. Go check his Twitter where he's saying the exact same stuff and pick a fight with him if you want.

You asked for a prominent scientist that won't rule out a lab leak, and you got one. Deal with it. There's more where he came from.

EDIT: I was going to post a Washington Post article where he was quoted but it was paywalled, you got the next article down.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

He's a Harvard educated Microbiologist and Professor of same at Rutgers University. Go check his Twitter where he's saying the exact same stuff and pick a fight with him if you want.

You asked for a scientist that won't rule out a lab leak, and you got one. Deal with it. There's more where he came from.

EDIT: I was going to post a Washington Post article where he was quoted but it was paywalled, you got the next article down.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sure any true scientist worth their salt "wouldn't rule out that it came from a virus lab" only that it is extremely unlikely as close to planck length as you can get.

But I did check that guys twitter, he is just citing news articles from the likes of washington examiner, fox, etc..

Anyone who's doing research on this thing to figure out more is concluding it is of natural origin. Can you find any research to suggest otherwise?

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sure any true scientist worth their salt "wouldn't rule out that it came from a virus lab" only that it is extremely unlikely as close to planck length as you can get.

But I did check that guys twitter, he is just citing news articles from the likes of washington examiner, fox, etc..

Anyone who's doing research on this thing to figure out more is concluding it is of natural origin. Can you find any research to suggest otherwise?

You think there's peer reviewed research on an event this young? And by the way, neither I nor the scientist presented to you dispute its natural origin. The lab leak hypothosis is what's under discussion here. Please stop.

You asked, you got. Google-fu and you'll find more.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

You think there's peer reviewed research on an event this young? And by the way, neither I nor the scientist presented to you dispute its natural origin. The lab leak hypothosis is what's under discussion here. Please stop.

You asked, you got. Google-fu and you'll find more.

I see a moving of the goal-posts.

Yurt! wrote: »

But if serious scientists in the US from serious universities aren't ruling out the labs, then neither am I.

So I proved that serious scientists in the US from serious universities were ruling out the labs. Then you change to you found one scientist that doesn't rule out the lab. Fair enough!

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

I see a moving of the goal-posts.



So I proved that serious scientists in the US from serious universities were ruling out the labs. Then you change to you found one scientist that doesn't rule out the lab. Fair enough!

At no stage did I ever suggest it was engineered. Get up the yard. You're worse than the tin-foil hat merchants that you're inventing for yourself in this thread.

And FYI, all you've presented is scientists speaking to the man-made hypothesis. None of them speak to a lab-leak.

The prospect of a lab-leak is what's been under discussion. I trust you understand the distiction.

12trackmind

It's always wise (and ethical) to assume incompetence rather than malice.

Is there a case for criminal negligence in the West? Yes. I believe so. Especially in the U.S., Spain and the U.K. There is a slim chance that justice will be served in the West. Unfortunately, as in China, it is likely that any successful cases will involve lower ranked officials. Thankfully, unlike in China, we have elections and being voted out of office is regarded as a punishment of sorts... and it is, because it takes the reins of powers away.

Regardless of the virus' origin, pangolin, lab, bat, donkey or dog, have the CCP been criminally negligent?

That Globe & Mail article I referred to earlier in the thread (one of the authors being Irwin Cotler, former justice minister and attorney-general of Canada) is worth taking seriously, IMO:

For 40 days, Mr. Xi’s CCP concealed, destroyed, falsified and fabricated information about the rampant spread of COVID-19 through its massive state-sanctioned surveillance and suppression of data; misrepresentation of information; silencing and criminalizing of dissent; and the disappearance of whistleblowers – all of which reflect the breadth of criminality and corruption in the party.

There is no hope for justice within China. The central authorities will do what they always do.. put the blame on local figures and take no responsibility themselves.

Justice --for all the lives, trillions, time and productivity lost-- is going to have to come from outside. But how to do this without resorting to collective punishment? The Chinese people have suffered enough under the CCP and its supporters already.

2u2me

Yurt! wrote: »

At no stage did I ever suggest it was engineered. Get up the yard. You're worse than the tin-foil hat merchants that you're inventing for yourself in this thread.

And FYI, all you've presented is scientists speaking to the man-made hypothesis. None of them speak to a lab-leak.

The prospect of a lab-leak is what's been under discussion. I trust you understand the distiction.

Well this is why I mentioned Occam's razor earlier. Sure it could be a 'lab-leak' as suggested, but currently all signs point to that possibility somewhere in the 0.00001% chance of happening.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Well this is why I mentioned Occam's razor earlier. Sure it could be a 'lab-leak' as suggested,

Right, like I said.

2u2me wrote: »

but currently all signs point to that possibility somewhere in the 0.00001% chance of happening.

As my Leaving Cert maths teacher used to ask me: show me your workings.