Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
The Chinese Big Lie
Options
Comments
-
12trackmind wrote: »Some heart-breaking stuff in there.
I not disputing this but from my experince, everyone has a VPN, and I mean everyone. Info can not be contained. Chinese people aren't really unaware of outside views0 -
Fairly complete timeline here from the NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/16/health/WHO-Trump-coronavirus.html
you may have to register but the corona virus stuff is free.
The sun headline reads
The World Health Organization, always cautious, acted more forcefully and faster than many national governments. But President Trump has decided to cut off U.S. funding to the organization.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »I not disputing this but from my experince, everyone has a VPN, and I mean everyone. Info can not be contained. Chinese people aren't really unaware of outside views
Also aware of the disappearances though, which has a chilling effect on dissent...
I really do hope the Chinese themselves can deal with the CCP, but it's a hell of a powerful organization.0 -
-
This story has a long way to run yet, so to throw down an anchor and completely rule out a lab accident as some sort of looney toons theory may just come back to bite some posters in the ass. You never know.
I'm not suggesting that anyone completely rule out anything. I just don't see the value in pushing a theory so lacking in evidence until there have been a variety of actual investigations. And it has been pushed for weeks now.0 -
Advertisement
-
cryptocurrency wrote: »I not disputing this but from my experince, everyone has a VPN, and I mean everyone. Info can not be contained. Chinese people aren't really unaware of outside views
Despite that abundance of information available I wouldn't blame many of them believing that its all lies, since that is what the CCP pedals. Thankfully there are many there that can see through the bull****.
To try an extract reparations for this virus is crazy, it opens up a can of worms that can never be closed. Every country in the world will be scared of a virus originating there; and how much it might cost if it gets out.
Imagine all the closed borders we'd see everywhere in normal day life.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »And it has been pushed for weeks now.
Indeed. The original story was that it was engineered in a lab. That story now seems to have morphed to fit with the updated facts.0 -
All well and good, but if there was an Ebola outbreak in Carlow town and it happened to host a lab screwing around with rare-viruses, please don't tell me that your mind wouldn't turn to said lab.
And to address the bolded, no one on the thread is pushing the bio-weapon angle.
There's also a severe lack of evidence for the wet-market theory truth be told, bar the circumstantial. I'm not ruling that out either btw.
This story has a long way to run yet, so to throw down an anchor and completely rule out a lab accident as some sort of looney toons theory may just come back to bite some posters in the ass. You never know.
If we are on the cusp of a new cold war, the US and its closest allies would be dam foolish to let this opportunity go and not paint it as a lab incident; or not continue to muddy the waters so that a good proportion of the flat earthers believe it forever. This is how it will work from both sides.
The idiots here are the ones who jump straight into the boat everytime before the game has played out.0 -
Despite that abundance of information available I wouldn't blame many of them believing that its all lies, since that is what the CCP pedals. Thankfully there are many there that can see through the bull****.
To try an extract reparations for this virus is crazy, it opens up a can of worms that can never be closed. Every country in the world will be scared of a virus originating there; and how much it might cost if it gets out.
Imagine all the closed borders we'd see everywhere in normal day life.
virus tit for tat them...we are all doomed0 -
12trackmind wrote: »Also aware of the disappearances though, which has a chilling effect on dissent...
I really do hope the Chinese themselves can deal with the CCP, but it's a hell of a powerful organization.
The chinese are quite happy with the CCP, according to all polls. The government is the most trusted in the world in fact. Maybe because they are good at stopping viral outbreaks, and building infrastructure.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/22/the-countries-that-trust-their-government-most-and-least-infographic/#72718643777a
When it comes to government, one of the most important trust indicators, China leads the way. Edelman found that 84 percent of people in China trust their government, the highest level worldwide and an eight percentage point increase on 2017.
They also like capitalism. Which they feel is what the CCP is giving them. More so than the US in fact. More so than the rest of the world.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/10/chinas-government-may-be-communist-but-its-people-embrace-capitalism/
While China’s government may be officially communist, the Chinese people express widespread support for capitalism. Roughly three-quarters of the Chinese (76%) agree that most people are better off in a free market economy. And since 2002, the Chinese have consistently been one of the strongest proponents of capitalism compared with other publics around the world, even more so than Americans and Western Europeans.
And happier.
A broad majority of Chinese (89%) think things are going well with their economy, making them the happiest on this measure compared with all other 43 countries surveyed this year. And they believe things will only get better. Eight-in-ten say the economy will continue to improve over the next 12 months. And 85% think the younger generation will be better off financially than their parents. This optimism stands in stark contrast to findings in Europe and the U.S., where widespread majorities believe their children will be worse off going forward.
The communist party not really being communist anymore tends to put a huge hole into the Chinese Chernobyl arguments, and the Chinese look to Russia in the 90s and the US promoted looting, and think they are better off with a managed transition to the free market.
Meanwhile the US has turned sharply more ideological over the past two decades, driven by two crazed ideologies of pure neo-liberalism and the cultural marxism vehemence of its universities and left.
I'd put money on China winning this "cold war" long term.0 -
Advertisement
-
Despite that abundance of information available I wouldn't blame many of them believing that its all lies, since that is what the CCP pedals. Thankfully there are many there that can see through the bull****.
To try an extract reparations for this virus is crazy, it opens up a can of worms that can never be closed. Every country in the world will be scared of a virus originating there; and how much it might cost if it gets out.
Imagine all the closed borders we'd see everywhere in normal day life.
Riiiiight. There's an abundance of information flowing from zhongnanhai about the origins of the virus and no evidence of suppression of information or scientists in the PRC having their hands tied. Riiiiight.
I love that you've got the oracle and can see through the bullsh*t, you must've some sort of hotline to the CCP politburo and are getting all the good stuff.
Naivety isn't even the word.0 -
Riiiiight. There's an abundance of information flowing from zhongnanhai about the origins of the virus and no evidence of suppression of information or scientists in the PRC having their hands tied. Riiiiight.
I love that you've got the oracle and can see through the bullsh*t, you must've some sort of hotline to the CCP politburo and are getting all the good stuff.
Naivety isn't even the word.
I think this is you. He just has a point of view. You come across like some MAGA yolkle in the rural Carolinas. You need to reevaluate ALL the info you consume and look for views that challange you.0 -
Despite that abundance of information available I wouldn't blame many of them believing that its all lies, since that is what the CCP pedals. Thankfully there are many there that can see through the bull****.
To try an extract reparations for this virus is crazy, it opens up a can of worms that can never be closed. Every country in the world will be scared of a virus originating there; and how much it might cost if it gets out.
Imagine all the closed borders we'd see everywhere in normal day life.
It's not just that. I honestly don't get why people are in such a hurry to embrace the messages that the US is pedaling. Before the virus, boards was full of posts with outrage over Trumps and his administrations' behavior. The lies, the mistakes, and the overall misinformation pushed out by both his administration and American media.
Even before Trump, there are many examples of where the US has tampered with information, and then presented it to the world as fact, to justify their behavior. A series of behavior that contradicts many of the traditional values that western civilisation tends to moralise over. Human rights, an opposition to senseless warfare, etc. And yet, we've seen a growth in such behavior by the US over the last two decades... each time accompanied with media campaigns to affect peoples opinions.
I worry about the rush to get into bed with the US over China. I don't see China as a force for good in the world, but honestly, I don't see them as the boogeyman either. The US has behaved in far more aggressive actions and yet, we're so quick to give them a free pass.
Pushing the belief that China should be punished or need to pay for the damage done by covid, completely ignores the realistic consequence of such pressure being brought to bear on China. We are talking about a nation which is extremely proud, and hostile to foreign pressure. Any such pressure would need to come from the US since no other country or bloc of nations has the military strength to enforce a punishment. Do people really trust the US to not fcuk it all up? With Trump at the helm or any politician of the last decade? I certainly don't.
I'd be suggesting that we take what comes out of the US with more than a pinch of salt. I would say the same about China. Superpowers act in their own interests... they won't be acting in ours.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It's not just that. I honestly don't get why people are in such a hurry to embrace the messages that the US is pedaling. Before the virus, boards was full of posts with outrage over Trumps and his administrations' behavior. The lies, the mistakes, and the overall misinformation pushed out by both his administration and American media.
Even before Trump, there are many examples of where the US has tampered with information, and then presented it to the world as fact, to justify their behavior. A series of behavior that contradicts many of the traditional values that western civilisation tends to moralise over. Human rights, an opposition to senseless warfare, etc. And yet, we've seen a growth in such behavior by the US over the last two decades... each time accompanied with media campaigns to affect peoples opinions.
I worry about the rush to get into bed with the US over China. I don't see China as a force for good in the world, but honestly, I don't see them as the boogeyman either. The US has behaved in far more aggressive actions and yet, we're so quick to give them a free pass.
Pushing the belief that China should be punished or need to pay for the damage done by covid, completely ignores the realistic consequence of such pressure being brought to bear on China. We are talking about a nation which is extremely proud, and hostile to foreign pressure. Any such pressure would need to come from the US since no other country or bloc of nations has the military strength to enforce a punishment. Do people really trust the US to not fcuk it all up? With Trump at the helm or any politician of the last decade? I certainly don't.
I'd be suggesting that we take what comes out of the US with more than a pinch of salt. I would say the same about China. Superpowers act in their own interests... they won't be acting in ours.
The message being pedalled in the US is looking more and more obvious as a face saving exercise. The whole last few weeks has sent the wrong message to Asia, Africa and South America about our ability to deal with stuff. They have no choice other than to ensure they can rescue some face. Hurt pride when they see mask diplomacy around the world.
I can see they can swing the narritave in NATO but not so easy outside it.0 -
I'd put money on China winning this "cold war" long term.
I'd take that bet.
I say their human right's approach will sink them in the long run. From harvesting political prisoners for their organs(Falun Gong) to internment camps for millions of Muslims.
How a society treats its most vulnerable is always the measure of its humanity.
It is against Chinese culture and tradition to donate organs, in factIn 2010 the Chinese Red Cross launched a nationwide initiative to attract voluntary organ donors, but only 37 people signed up. Due to low levels of voluntary organ donation, most organs used in transplants are sourced from prisoners.
And yet China has the best source transplant list in the world, people(rich) regularly go there to get organs they can't source elsewhere. How nice.
It's easy to appease people in a time of growth, money is plentiful. That unprecedented growth of the largest middle-class ever seen has begun to halt. They have skipped r&d and stolen all the worlds best tech. They won't continue to grow unless they innovate.
Also from the Pew research link you provided.Despite the rosy picture in China, many Chinese complain about inequality (42% very big problem) and inflation (38%). More than four-in-ten (43%) say their government’s economic policies are to blame for the rich-poor gap in their nation, one of the higher percentages across all countries in the survey.
The Chinese are also unhappy with the level of corruption they see. Last year, 53% said corrupt officials were a very big problem. And this year, 38% say that giving bribes is important for getting ahead in life, considerably higher than the global median of 16%
We've already seen the growth of Ponzi schemes there in recent times.. e.g. Ezubao0 -
Riiiiight. There's an abundance of information flowing from zhongnanhai about the origins of the virus and no evidence of suppression of information or scientists in the PRC having their hands tied. Riiiiight.
I love that you've got the oracle and can see through the bullsh*t, you must've some sort of hotline to the CCP politburo and are getting all the good stuff.
Naivety isn't even the word.
You've picked me up wrong here. Re read this postIn a recent video message a young student called Zhang Wenbin reflected on his evolution from an uncritical CCP supporter to a critical citizen with a conscience: "Since I scaled the Great Firewall, I gradually came to the realization that the Chinese Communist Party has extended its dragon claws into every corner of the world, including collective farming [1950s], the Cultural Revolution [1966-1976], the Great Famine [1958-1961], the One-Child Policy, the Tiananmen massacre [1989], as well as the persecution of the Falun Gong [spiritual movement], and the peoples of Tibet, Hong Kong and Xinjiang…Yet everyone continues to turn a blind eye, singing the party's praises. I just can't bear it".
Zhang disappeared shortly after recording his message. His friends fear he will face interrogation and torture by the secret police.
and then my reply.Despite that abundance of information available I wouldn't blame many of them[Chinese people] believing that its all lies[the horrible actions of the CCP listed above], since that is what the CCP pedals. Thankfully there are many there that can see through the bull****.
To try an extract reparations for this virus is crazy, it opens up a can of worms that can never be closed. Every country in the world will be scared of a virus originating there; and how much it might cost if it gets out.
Imagine all the closed borders we'd see everywhere in normal day life.0 -
145257 reported deaths now
126407 inside the EU and North America
18850 in the Rest of the World.
They must all be lying now.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »I think this is you. He just has a point of view. You come across like some MAGA yolkle in the rural Carolinas. You need to reevaluate ALL the info you consume and look for views that challange you.
I have no truck with Trump, but I guarantee I'm more informed about goings on in the Middle Kingdom than you. There's more to the contemporary China story than throwing on the robes of a despotic regime and acting as their cheerleader because you don't like a douchebag American president who will probably be gone in a few months anyway.
You've made yourself a nice little edgelord character here thinking you've got things sussed.
I pray to God you've been drinking posting all this scrot because the alternative, that being you're actually like this in life day-to-day - doesn't bear thinking about.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »145257 reported deaths now
126407 inside the EU and North America
18850 in the Rest of the World.
They must all be lying now.
China are and have been since the start.
If you've spent any time in China bar a few days propping up the bar in an Irish pub in the French concession in SH you'd know it. But you haven't, so you don't.
Edgelords of the world assemble.0 -
I'd take that bet.
I say their human right's approach will sink them in the long run. From harvesting political prisoners for their organs(Falun Gong) to internment camps for millions of Muslims.
How a society treats its most vulnerable is always the measure of its humanity.
Within western civilisation. Not outside of it. You're pushing western morality on the rest of the world and assuming that it's universal. It most definitely is not.
The fact is that most people are inherently selfish and won't care too much about such things unless it directly affects them. Considering the size of China, the enormity of it's population, and just as importantly, the low level of education in many areas, dislike of human rights abuses, concentration camps, etc, are unlikely to gain enough support to change anything. Especially, when the majority of Chinese people are Han, and have a particular worldview regarding ethnic groups which aren't "Chinese".It is against Chinese culture and tradition to donate organs, in fact
True enough although Chinese culture changes depending on what province you're in, and the differences can be massive. In any case, they're a very pragmatic people. Organ harvesting doesn't affect the majority, and so won't be of a concern to most of them.
The logic being that the operations are mostly focused on criminals, and criminals have no rights. I'm not agreeing with them, but it's a common belief. If you cannot live within the rules of society, then, you have no rights to being protected within society... plus the CCP has made a real effort in it's propaganda to show how such behavior benefits the sick in China.It's easy to appease people in a time of growth, money is plentiful. That unprecedented growth of the largest middle-class ever seen has begun to halt.
So what? Chinese people are familiar with hardship. Most Chinese people today except for those in their 20s can remember what it was like when China was essentially a third world nation. Your viewpoint also ignores that a large percentage of the new middle class were originally from the countryside where poverty is rife. They're not going to collapse simply because their economy slows or slides into a serious recession.
Instead, they'll weather the hardship believing that they can get past it eventually. Which they will.
And you're once again applying western sentiments to a vastly different culture group. Their values and morals aren't the same as here, except on the most basic of levels. Family remains the most important part of their culture. They're not going to risk their families in a vain effort to effect change especially, when they believe that the US and its allies are responsible. Which they do.They have skipped r&d and stolen all the worlds best tech. They won't continue to grow unless they innovate.
They have heavily invested in innovation centers around the whole country. Every city in China has a technology zone, where the government provides massive financial incentives for Chinese startup companies who are interested in either R&D or general improvements on existing technology. It takes time to develop a population base of skilled and experienced people. They're definitely putting in the work to bring such a thing about.We've already seen the growth of Ponzi schemes there in recent times.. e.g. Ezubao
Might be better to point to the corruption within the Chinese stock market and how many families lost their savings to a government campaign to increase investment, all the while, the rich got richer.
However, it's still not going to ferment enough unrest to generate momentum for change.. because of 1) the risk and 2) the alternatives aren't much better. Few Chinese consider the western model of governance to be effective, or representative of the people. It's just different wrapping paper for the rich and influential to rule over everyone else.0 -
Advertisement
-
China are and have been since the start.
If you've spent any time in China bar a few days propping up the bar in an Irish pub in the French concession in SH you'd know it. But you haven't, so you don't.
Edgelords of the world assemble.
Sure, they have been. I doubt anyone truly trusts the statements of the CCP. I certainly wouldn't. Everything should be fact checked... that would be sensible.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »didn't spread? i thought it spread and killed zillions and the chinese covered it up? Which is it?
well according to Chinese figures didnt spread much outside Wuhan.
Ther total deaths are 3,342
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
less than Belgium, those figures look right to you ????0 -
I agree with much of what you say although just can not let this pass.Deleted User wrote: »And you're once again applying western sentiments to a vastly different culture group. Their values and morals aren't the same as here, except on the most basic of levels. Family remains the most important part of their culture. They're not going to risk their families in a vain effort to effect change especially, when they believe that the US and its allies are responsible. Which they do.
Once upon a time one could argue "I'm not giving up my black slaves, its my valuable property, the only way I can live"
I am indeed applying western morality to China, but I believe this morality will sometime in the future be a universal morality. Just like once upon a time slavery was accepted morally.0 -
China are and have been since the start.
If you've spent any time in China bar a few days propping up the bar in an Irish pub in the French concession in SH you'd know it. But you haven't, so you don't.
Edgelords of the world assemble.
Really? I don't think you've even been? I've lived there.0 -
I agree with much of what you say although just can not let this pass.
Once upon a time one could argue "I'm not giving up my black slaves, its my valuable property, the only way I can live"
I am indeed applying western morality to China, but I believe this morality will sometime in the future be a universal morality. Just like once upon a time slavery was accepted morally.
I don't think you understand the sheer size of China. Ireland was able to modernise relatively quickly due to it's closeness with Europe, and its low population base. China is surrounded by mostly enemies, and it's population is massive. And growing. The last official census placed the population close to 1.4 billion people and that was when the one child policy was in place. That's been removed for a few years now...
The point is that while people might change in the major cities due to prosperity, better education etc. The vast majority of Chinese people do not have access to such benefits.. and it will take probably, at least, my lifetime before they're remotely close to it happening. (4 or 5 decades is my guess)
Added to that are two other factors. Chinese culture holds the value of life to be different than that of western culture. Second, is the support for the CCP and it's propaganda arm which is rather effective within China.
I think you're going to be rather disappointed if you believe that Chinese people will accept western values.
As for slavery... it was an economic decision during a variety of wars. The British attempts to destroy the Turkish economies, or the Unions attempt to wreck the Confederate economies and increase enlistment of soldiers... the morality came in much much later, except for a very clear minority of idealists. Slavery took well over a century to be abolished properly, and it still exists in many parts of the world, in one form or another.0 -
well according to Chinese figures didnt spread much outside Wuhan.
Ther total deaths are 3,342
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
less than Belgium, those figures look right to you ????
We've done this to death. You can ever triple the Chinese figures and they still have you wondering what is going on in Europe. China can't be out the kinda numbers or hidden the kinda deaths that you want to hear. I know the likes of Yurt won't be happy unless he hears great leap forward kinda figures, he head is that much full of cr"".
think the whole point of this whole thread was to debunk the hysterical loons who are obsessed with China, the now 5 day window and refuse to do even 10 page nevermind 86 page threads looking at where the real major fu££ ups have been.
Thats the bit that amazes any sane person. They are brainwashed to the core.0 -
cryptocurrency wrote: »We've done this to death. You can ever triple the Chinese figures and they still have you wondering what is going on in Europe. China can't be out the kinda numbers or hidden the kinda deaths that you want to hear. I know the likes of Yurt won't be happy unless he hears great leap forward kinda figures, he head is that much full of cr"".
think the whole point of this whole thread was to debunk the hysterical loons who are obsessed with China, the now 5 day window and refuse to do even 10 page nevermind 86 page threads looking at where the real major fu££ ups have been.
Thats the bit that amazes any sane person. They are brainwashed to the core.
Triple the figures? You'll need a bigger multiplier than that. Lay off the hooch crypto, we're not the brainwashed ones here.0 -
Triple the figures? You'll need a bigger multiplier than that. Lay off the hooch crypto, we're not the brainwashed ones here.
What number do you need Jim? *50? and "we're" ...you've arging on the side of a few other cranks on this thread and thats it. All the China watchers have debucked you for days.
Explain Vietnam and the others, explain all the other provinces in China? Shanghai? you can't.
This where this all started. Absolute eejits effectively talking about tens of thousands of disappearing without it even being on the radar, social media or families of those around them.
Crop Circle stuff. Lay off the Meth Jim.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I think you're going to be rather disappointed if you believe that Chinese people will accept western values.
Well as long as you are aware that it's a possibility that YOU get sent to prison for deciding to practice Falun Gong, or perhaps a Chinese person decides to pick a fight with you. We all know it would be your fault. Ooo those kidneys look juicey.
I don't think Chinese people will accept western values. I believe Chinese will eventually adopt universal values. Just like everyone who doesn't harvest their prisoners for organs.
Slavery may exist in the world but it's not accepted morally by anyone. There is a big difference.
You discount too easily the masses of people that fought the ideological war to end slavery with their lives.0 -
Advertisement
-
Well as long as you are aware that it's a possibility that YOU get sent to prison for deciding to practice Falun Gong, or perhaps a Chinese person decides to pick a fight with you. We all know it would be your fault. Ooo those kidneys look juicey.
I don't think Chinese people will accept western values. I believe Chinese will eventually adopt universal values. Just like everyone who doesn't harvest their prisoners for organs.
Slavery may exist in the world but it's not accepted morally by anyone. There is a big difference.
You discount too easily the masses of people that fought the ideological war to end slavery with their lives.
The republic of China shows you can be Chinese, follow Chinese culture and follow a different form of governance0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement