The Chinese Big Lie

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Really? I don't think you've even been? I've lived there.

I speak Chinese, have studied in university there and have been in and out of the country for the past decade on business (including a couple of stints living there). You've honestly picked the wrong person to pull-rank on if you're fibbing about living in China (which I have no doubt you are).

I can tell you're a joker who swung by Shanghai once, it's dripping off you.

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

I speak Chinese, have studied in university there and have been in and out of the country for the past decade on business (including a couple of stints living there). You've honestly picked the wrong person to pull-rank on if you're fibbing about living in China (which I have no doubt you are).

I can tell you're a joker who swung by Shanghai once, it's dripping off you.

Hmmmmmmm

Wel we can now call your judgement into question on every issue now. Jim is wrong again.

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

well according to Chinese figures didnt spread much outside Wuhan.

Ther total deaths are 3,342

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

less than Belgium, those figures look right to you ????

Circa 5 million people fled wuhan the night of lockdown


Would 3.5K be about,what would be expected for a city of 6 million,assuming the lockdown is severe as reported ??

the.red.baron

you'd have to wonder how they could keep a lid on this with so many dying

cryptocurrency

the.red.baron wrote: »

you'd have to wonder how they could keep a lid on this with so many dying

I think everyone will have to revise upwards.

Was talking to someone last night who lost an eldery relative in a care home. between death and burial in it was about 18 hours. Wouldn't say one way or the other is if it was covid and was not told. Outbreak in care home.

the.red.baron

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I think everyone will have to revise upwards.

Was talking to someone last night who lost an eldery relative in a care home. between death and burial in it was about 18 hours. Wouldn't say one way or the other is if it was covid and was not told. Outbreak in care home.

sure they were probably included in the numbers


but how do you keep 1.3 billion quite if 10s of thousands are dying

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Well as long as you are aware that it's a possibility that YOU get sent to prison for deciding to practice Falun Gong, or perhaps a Chinese person decides to pick a fight with you. We all know it would be your fault. Ooo those kidneys look juicey.

Falun Gong is illegal and there's no confusion over it. It's simple enough. Do something illegal and the chance of being arrested/punished rises drastically.

And I've had many fights in China. I'm 192 cm tall and very skinny. I've had groups of Chinese guys pick fights with me because I was with my Chinese girlfriend, or simply because I picked the wrong woman in a bar to chat to. I've never had any problem is winning the fights, and the police while initially hostile, can be talked around.

The real issue is that most foreigners don't make an effort to do three important things:

First, read the law regarding foreigners. It outlines the rights that foreigners have., they're not guaranteed, but they're a guideline. You can get a translation of all their law books from their government website, but most foreigners never bother, relying on gossip for info.

Second, learn and understand Chinese culture. It's important. Especially with regards to relationships and influence. Nurture relationships for the value of their influence too... and be ready to call upon them for favors. It's an exchange.. but it's a crucial aspect of surviving here.

And lastly, learn more than the tourist basics of mandarin, and also pick up some provincial dialect.

China is not as bad as many foreigners like to make out... why? Because the foreigner is often doing crap he shouldn't have. Or they've acted out of ignorance or cultural superiority.

I don't think Chinese people will accept western values. I believe Chinese will eventually adopt universal values. Just like everyone who doesn't harvest their prisoners for organs.

Organ harvesting is an action, not a universal value.

Slavery may exist in the world but it's not accepted morally by anyone. There is a big difference.

Sure, it is. As I said, many different forms of slavery. They've just changed the name and description.

You discount too easily the masses of people that fought the ideological war to end slavery with their lives.

Sure, I do... because there were no such masses of people fighting to end slavery. They fought for other reasons. The US civil war was about the possibility of the South leaving the Union... simple enough. The slavery question was a PR spin brought in later.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Hmmmmmmm

Wel we can now call your judgement into question on every issue now. Jim is wrong again.

I call bs.

Where did you live in China and what did you do?

The honk of spoofery off you is strong

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

I call bs.

Where did you live in China and what did you do?

The honk of spoofery off you is strong

None of you business, Beijing metro and it was not any way to do with teaching.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

None of you business, Beijing metro and it was not any way to do with teaching.

Haha lies.

Go on tell us, I would have known pretty much all the Irish in the Beijing business community (still do) so I'm primed to call you out.

You're snookered now crypto. The fact you didn't know who the guy was on the Irish Times podcast is gives lie to your bs. He's a very well known guy around BJ

CloughCasey1

Is this a misprint?

MadYaker

Surprised they came out with that to be honest. The real death figure is likely even higher (as in every country) but it isn't in the millions. You can't hide that in this day and age. Anyone who has been to china knows its super technologically advanced and everyone is connected via social media wechat etc. Lots have facebook / instagram so the notion that they are hiding millions of deaths is nonsense. Its the only country ive been to where people can pay for their shopping by simply looking in a camera that recognises their face. As in every country there's probably more people who died but were never tested so the real figure is likely a bit higher.

Kivaro

I see China just "revised" the death toll in Wuhan city up by 50%.
As Tommy Cooper use to say: "Just like that".

While some adjustments are understandable; 50%? Really?
I'm sure that a few posters on here will have the excuses ready.
The lab/wet market topic is a source of hilarity for one individual, who somehow sees a correlation in the operation of wet markets in Wuhan to cat torture in Ireland, which is odd.

Expect more deflection tactics from the most prodigious posters on the thread.

cryptocurrency

Yurt! wrote: »

Haha lies.

Go on tell us, I would have known pretty much all the Irish in the Beijing business community (still do) so I'm primed to call you out.

You're snookered now crypto. The fact you didn't know who the guy was on the Irish Times podcast is gives lie to your bs. He's a very well known guy around BJ

That is impossible and now I know you are full of it. I didn't know who he was as I don't mix at that level. I've a fair idea of the kind of "expat" you were now. "I would have known pretty much all the irish in the Beijing business community..... ......."

The expats I mainly engage with, live in gated developments, socialise with fellow employees on same assignment, often fly/trains internally a number of times a week to other cities. Socialise mainly in hotels as per work/client related events and only have fleeting moments in the "expat bars" where the bar proppers hang out. This is normally for sporting events such as World Cup/Euro championships.

Your reinforcement that you "knew everyone" just confirms that you were the kinda expat that didn't, thye just knew their layer.

cryptocurrency

Kivaro wrote: »

I see China just "revised" the death toll in Wuhan city up by 50%.
As Tommy Cooper use to say: "Just like that".

While some adjustments are understandable; 50%? Really?
I'm sure that a few posters on here will have the excuses ready.
The lab/wet market topic is a source of hilarity for one individual, who somehow sees a correlation in the operation of wet markets in Wuhan to cat torture in Ireland, which is odd.

Expect more deflection tactics from the most prodigious posters on the thread.

All countries will if they do it honestly. They are all weeks away from finding all home deaths etc.. UK has issues with even care home deaths.

Yurt2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

That is impossible and now I know you are full of it. I didn't know who he was as I don't mix at that level. I've a fair idea of the kind of "expat" you were now. "I would have known pretty much all the irish in the Beijing business community..... ......."

Pure snookered.

Crypto, the closest you've come to living in Beijing is above a Chinese takeaway in a bedsit.

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

thye just knew their layer.

Which describes any expat who has lived longer than a year in China...

Once you get past the bar scene, and become somewhat exasperated with the foreign community, most of us end up keeping to our own particular layer.

Yurt, I did management consulting in Beijing just over a decade ago. You wouldn't have known me because I didn't go to the Irish or foreign bars. China, for me, has always been about Chinese people... not spending time with expats. Which meant that I spent most of my time going to venues where expats didn't go to... or I was working. Simple as that.

Yurt/cryptocurrency.... if you're going to accuse each other about experience in China... display it with what matters. The understanding of Chinese culture, and habits. Should be easy enough to show your understanding and empathy for China if either of you have spent any extensive time there.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is any expat who has lived longer than a year in any foreigner country...

Once you get past the bar scene, and become somewhat exasperated with the foreign community, most of us end up keeping to our own particular layer.

Yurt, I did management consulting in Beijing just over a decade ago. You wouldn't have known me because I didn't go to the Irish or foreign bars. China, for me, has always been about Chinese people... not spending time with expats. Which meant that I spent most of my time going to venues where expats didn't go to... or I was working. Simple as that.

Yurt/cryptocurrency.... if you're going to accuse each other about experience in China... display it with what matters. The understanding of Chinese culture, and habits. Should be easy enough to show your understanding and empathy for China if either of you have spent any extensive time there.

I wasn't referring to the Sanlitun / Haidian laowai scene at all. That's not my jam either. I just know a Walter Mitty when I see one. And crypto is a Walter Mitty.

He's abusing people throughout the whole thread, and his understanding of the country is so superficial it's next to impossible he's been there for any significant period.

Gated communities and private jets my backside. He's a fantasist.

MadYaker

Yurt! wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the Sanlitun / Haidian laowai scene at all. That's not my jam either. I just know a Walter Mitty when I see one. And crypto is a Walter Mitty.

He's abusing people throughout the whole thread, and his understanding of the country is so superficial it's next to impossible he's been there for any significant period.

Gated communities and private jets my backside. He's a fantasist.

Take your obsession to PMs you're ruining the thread.

thebaz

cryptocurrency wrote: »

All countries will if they do it honestly. They are all weeks away from finding all home deaths etc.. UK has issues with even care home deaths.

Do you not think Chinese numbers, regardless of review, look suspiciously low, less than Belgium - just a bit above New Jersey - and these are not worst hit regions worldwide

China poplulation 1.4 Billiion
Belgium population 11.5 Million
New Jersey population 8.5

Wibbs

thebaz wrote: »

Do you not think Chinese numbers, regardless of review, look suspiciously low, less than Belgium - just a bit above New Jersey - and these are not worst hit regions worldwide

China poplulation 1.4 Billiion
Belgium population 11.5 Million
New Jersey population 8.5

Low yes, but suspiciously maybe not TB. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea's figures are pretty bloody low too. Why? More generally severe lockdowns introduced far more quickly than in most western nations. More testing, more contact tracing(are we even doing the latter here? And our testing has been a shambles). They also closed down or heavily restricted borders and had health checks on borders in place and had quarantine protocols for those they did let in(we've done none of those). They also mandated masks in public(still agains that here, while those nations are thinking of us like "are you high?"). Now look closer to home at western nations like the Czech Republic who implemented "Asian" style responses. Twice our population, higher population densities, more tourists and closer to hotzones like Italy. Under half our deaths and are now slowly coming out of lockdowns.



Note on the 15th they had no deaths. As of the 16th they have recorded 170 dead, while we're at nearly 500. And again remember TB they have twice the population. If we had followed their curve we should be hovering around the 100 dead mark, not nearly five times that.

In short those nations who controlled borders, tested more, contact traced, masked in public, quarantined possible cases and did all that relatively quickly quite simply have had better outcomes, regardless of political system and racial background. Those who didn't including Ireland(even with our major population advantages) didn't. IN this I do agree with Crypto, western nations have been half hearted, reactive and delayed in response to this.

2u2me

Kivaro wrote: »

I see China just "revised" the death toll in Wuhan city up by 50%.
As Tommy Cooper use to say: "Just like that".

While some adjustments are understandable; 50%? Really?
I'm sure that a few posters on here will have the excuses ready.
The lab/wet market topic is a source of hilarity for one individual, who somehow sees a correlation in the operation of wet markets in Wuhan to cat torture in Ireland, which is odd.

Expect more deflection tactics from the most prodigious posters on the thread.

Look, it's clear for all to see you're not readint his thread properly. It's also clear you're talking about me, but why not be less under-handed and make the claim you're making so I can refute it?

This is not the first time you've accused me of things in this thread unwarranted. (You called me a dog that needed training).

I was making the point that I've seen cats tortured in Ireland, When someone else posted a video of a dog being roasted over a fire in China.

To call you disingenuous would be a understatement.

wakka12

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Circa 5 million people fled wuhan the night of lockdown


Would 3.5K be about,what would be expected for a city of 6 million,assuming the lockdown is severe as reported ??

Yeh it's possible, similar to the number of people who have died in Paris so far which is about the same size as Wuhan

Wibbs

2u2me wrote: »

I was making the point that I've seen cats tortured in Ireland, When someone else posted a video of a dog being roasted over a fire in China.

Oh I agree 2u, we do need to regard our own dodgy practices first. Very much so. And yes we happily eat our ham sandwiches and steaks, which would horrify Jews/Muslims and Hindus respectively and our meat farming is still a moral question up for grabs. However there's one singular difference between your two examples: In Ireland torturing cats is considered illegal and morally reprehensible, in some parts of China it's considered lunch. Slight bit of a difference there.

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree 2u, we do need to regard our own dodgy practices first. Very much so. And yes we happily eat our ham sandwiches and steaks, which would horrify Jews/Muslims and Hindus respectively and our meat farming is still a moral question up for grabs. However there's one singular difference between your two examples: In Ireland torturing cats is considered illegal and morally reprehensible, in some parts of China it's considered lunch. Slight bit of a difference there.

I'm not talking about eating animals. I'm talking about torturting them alive over a fire. Its not a video I posted Wibbs but perhaps you missed it.

I checked it still there.
Did you see the video Wibbs?
The poster said this about the video

Grab All Association wrote: »

It’s China alright. CCP bots are out in force claiming it’s the USA. This is most certainly the norm there.
.

this one the reply straight after it.

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

What the absolute f**k does that video have to do with anything, honestly? Why put it in here?

Are you saying sanctions should be placed on China because some pyschos in a field (with no indication it's actually in China) tortured a dog?

Then I said, I've heard stories of cats being tortured in Ireland for years, I'm glad we're not all judge by the actions of a few.

Now knowing all that do you think it's fair what Kivaro wrote?

who somehow sees a correlation in the operation of wet markets in Wuhan to cat torture in Ireland, which is odd.

bob mcbob

cryptocurrency wrote: »

None of you business, Beijing metro and it was not any way to do with teaching.

Were you in Beijing before or after your time in Iraq.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106690977

By the way, how did you get on suing the landlord for slander after he refused you service.

He obviously did not know who he was dealing with

2u2me

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The republic of China shows you can be Chinese, follow Chinese culture and follow a different form of governance

Deleted User wrote: »

Falun Gong is illegal and there's no confusion over it. It's simple enough. Do something illegal and the chance of being arrested/punished rises drastically.
[...]
Second, learn and understand Chinese culture. It's important. Especially with regards to relationships and influence. Nurture relationships for the value of their influence too... and be ready to call upon them for favors. It's an exchange.. but it's a crucial aspect of surviving here.
[...]
China is not as bad as many foreigners like to make out... why? Because the foreigner is often doing crap he shouldn't have. Or they've acted out of ignorance or cultural superiority.

I hear you guys, I'm not that far off in agreement. To be clear I don't think China will collapse or anything but I think it will have to reform to keep the hearts of its people.

BUT the same above sentences can be written about North Korea. The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea shows you can be North Korean, follow the Democratic People's Republic of North Korean culture and different form of governance. One of the most stable regimes since 1948 and doesn't look to be going anywhere soon.
As long as you abide by their rules and follow their ways you will be fine.

This just isn't enough. Some morality has become universal. I'd bet if you ask anyone on the street in China do they agree with prisoner organ harvesting they would say no, and yet their society is based on it.

And I've had many fights in China. I'm 192 cm tall and very skinny. I've had groups of Chinese guys pick fights with me because I was with my Chinese girlfriend, or simply because I picked the wrong woman in a bar to chat to. I've never had any problem is winning the fights, and the police while initially hostile, can be talked around.

What happens when the wrong guy picks a fight with you? Surely you admit this is at least a possibility; however small.

Organ harvesting is an action, not a universal value.

Sure it's an action. Just like putting someone in chains is an action. It kind is side-stepping the point by calling it an action. I'm sure you'll struggle to find people in the world in agreement with this policy of harvesting prisoners for their organs. Especially in a state where trust in government is so low.
We all know there are innocent people in prisons everywhere.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think we can all look at that horrific picture of a dog over a flame and know that is wrong.
Especially with how little the chinese themselves trust their government, when enough people know about this things will change I bet you. watch this space.

because there were no such masses of people fighting to end slavery. They fought for other reasons. The US civil war was about the possibility of the South leaving the Union... simple enough. The slavery question was a PR spin brought in later.

Sure maybe Lincoln used other reasons to persuade generals etc.. but to win that war he had to win the hearts of the people. "Ending slavery" is the kind of tag line that can do that. I'm talking the lesser, pawns on the battlefield the small guys; the ones that made up most of the numbers.
Surely you wouldn't argue the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 was for their personal motive in some way.

What about all the people that lost their lives to enforce this act, I think you discount them too easily also.

"If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong"-Abraham Lincoln

the.red.baron

Wibbs wrote: »

Low yes, but suspiciously maybe not TB. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea's figures are pretty bloody low too. Why? More generally severe lockdowns introduced far more quickly than in most western nations. More testing, more contact tracing(are we even doing the latter here? And our testing has been a shambles). They also closed down or heavily restricted borders and had health checks on borders in place and had quarantine protocols for those they did let in(we've done none of those). They also mandated masks in public(still agains that here, while those nations are thinking of us like "are you high?"). Now look closer to home at western nations like the Czech Republic who implemented "Asian" style responses. Twice our population, higher population densities, more tourists and closer to hotzones like Italy. Under half our deaths and are now slowly coming out of lockdowns.



Note on the 15th they had no deaths. As of the 16th they have recorded 170 dead, while we're at nearly 500. And again remember TB they have twice the population. If we had followed their curve we should be hovering around the 100 dead mark, not nearly five times that.

In short those nations who controlled borders, tested more, contact traced, masked in public, quarantined possible cases and did all that relatively quickly quite simply have had better outcomes, regardless of political system and racial background. Those who didn't including Ireland(even with our major population advantages) didn't. IN this I do agree with Crypto, western nations have been half hearted, reactive and delayed in response to this.

how long did it take them to lockdown


2 months? more nov to end of jan



doesn't make sense


should have spread all over china

dwayneshintzy

Wibbs wrote: »

Low yes, but suspiciously maybe not TB. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Korea's figures are pretty bloody low too. Why? More generally severe lockdowns introduced far more quickly than in most western nations. More testing, more contact tracing(are we even doing the latter here? And our testing has been a shambles). They also closed down or heavily restricted borders and had health checks on borders in place and had quarantine protocols for those they did let in(we've done none of those). They also mandated masks in public(still agains that here, while those nations are thinking of us like "are you high?"). Now look closer to home at western nations like the Czech Republic who implemented "Asian" style responses. Twice our population, higher population densities, more tourists and closer to hotzones like Italy. Under half our deaths and are now slowly coming out of lockdowns.



Note on the 15th they had no deaths. As of the 16th they have recorded 170 dead, while we're at nearly 500. And again remember TB they have twice the population. If we had followed their curve we should be hovering around the 100 dead mark, not nearly five times that.

In short those nations who controlled borders, tested more, contact traced, masked in public, quarantined possible cases and did all that relatively quickly quite simply have had better outcomes, regardless of political system and racial background. Those who didn't including Ireland(even with our major population advantages) didn't. IN this I do agree with Crypto, western nations have been half hearted, reactive and delayed in response to this.

The testing, contract tracing, use of masks, quarantine facilities, etc is very true for Hong Kong. But a more severe lockdown definitely isn't, at least for Hong Kong. Schools have been closed, public parks, etc. But restaurants weren't restricted at all until recently, and are still open with distancing measures in place. The lockdown in HK has been much less severe than in Europe.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

I hear you guys, I'm not that far off in agreement. To be clear I don't think China will collapse or anything but I think it will have to reform to keep the hearts of its people.

Hearts of it's people? Awfully romantic, don't you think?

I'm not even sure what it means.... even if we were only to look at western nations.

China is a nation with an established propaganda system, on top of three thousand years of previous indoctrination. You should consider the effect of Confucius teachings on Chinese society, and how it merges with the party line.

This just isn't enough. Some morality has become universal. I'd bet if you ask anyone on the street in China do they agree with prisoner organ harvesting they would say no, and yet their society is based on it.

Well, first off, most of these "universal values" are western in their origin and are only international because of colonialism, and the subsequent re-education of natives to appreciate western superiority. Few nations outside of the west have developed in any manner similar to the west.

Second, Chinese society is not based on organ harvesting. That's easily one of the most ignorant/ridiculous statements I've seen on this thread.. and there's been a lot of rubbish statements made here.

Third, most Chinese people wouldn't have an opinion (at all) about organ harvesting because it doesn't affect them. Having an opinion can be dangerous, and their society is based on the belief that it's basically safer not to have opinions. Having an opinion means taking responsibility for something. Most Chinese will avoid that, like the plague.

Seriously... what are you basing all these assumptions on? You've made a variety of statements about China/Chinese people within the last few pages, which don't even come close to any of my experiences of them. I've lived in six different cites, traveled extensively throughout China, have taught thousands of Chinese students at third level... and your assumptions simply don't present themselves as reality.

What happens when the wrong guy picks a fight with you? Surely you admit this is at least a possibility; however small.

Wrong guy? What's that mean?

I have relationships and influence with influential people in Shannxi. So, when I get into any kind of trouble, I will call one of them to help. They step in, help me out, and then I owe them a favor. Nothing is without some kind of cost in China. That's the essence of Chinese culture. Building relationships and helping each other out... which unfortunately is something that many foreigners refuse to engage in, and so they're fcuked when they mess up.

It's actually how I met my girlfriend. She's a field officer in the PSB (Public security bureau) aka, the police. I had a problem in a nightclub, needed some help, asked a friend, and he connected me with her. She was able to negotiate a settlement, and I paid her back by teaching her management strategies which helped her in her applications for internal promotion (she wanted a desk job). You get help (100%) and you return the help (150%).

Just to add.... I'm pretty good at diffusing conflict. I know the Chinese cultural gestures and speech constructs for showing respect or seeking to give an apology. Many foreigners are far too aggressive, or will react too strongly in the face of Chinese aggression. They don't try to understand how and why face is important... Most trouble can be diffused with a bit of bowing, free drinks and promises of friendship.

Sure it's an action. Just like putting someone in chains is an action. It kind is side-stepping the point by calling it an action. I'm sure you'll struggle to find people in the world in agreement with this policy of harvesting prisoners for their organs. Especially in a state where trust in government is so low.
We all know there are innocent people in prisons everywhere.

Trust in the Chinese government is actually quite high depending on what section of society you're talking about. But it fits the dialogue to suggest that Chinese people are in terror of their government. The majority are not.

You'll struggle to find people outside of western countries who will genuinely care about it. Anyway, I've no idea why you have such a hard on about organ harvesting.

We were talking about "universal values" and most western values are not universal.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think we can all look at that horrific picture of a dog over a flame and know that is wrong.

Sure, most people would consider it wrong for a variety of reasons. Those reasons may or may not be for the same reasons though. Some people don't care about animals suffering. Others simply see them as a food source. I know someone who does eat dog, and would be against the torturing of animals because it changes the texture of the meat....

Especially with how little the chinese themselves trust their government, when enough people know about this things will change I bet you. watch this space.

Ok. What are you basing this on? What evidence do you have that so few Chinese people trust their government?

Sure maybe Lincoln used other reasons to persuade generals etc.. but to win that war he had to win the hearts of the people. "Ending slavery" is the kind of tag line that can do that. I'm talking the lesser, pawns on the battlefield the small guys; the ones that made up most of the numbers.
Surely you wouldn't argue the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 was for their personal motive in some way.

Racism was rife throughout the population of the Union throughout the war. Released slaves were conscripted and sent in as cannon fodder to save the white troops. Even after the war, equality wasn't even remotely on the table for Black people, and that was coming from the "little guys". I think you need to do some reading and avoid the government led propaganda.

What about all the people that lost their lives to enforce this act, I think you discount them too easily also.

I think rather than argue the points made, you seek to expand the discussion. You did it with organ harvesting when I disagreed with you. Then you did it again with slavery. Each time, I disagree with you, you expand the scope of the discussion, with examples that you believe I can't argue against... and yet, each time you show a very limited appreciation of the topics you introduce.

I didn't speak of anyone who lost their lives to enforce that act. It wasn't part of the discussion until you made the quoted piece above. :rolleyes:

"If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong"-Abraham Lincoln

Was he speaking as a slave owner? How many years did he own and have slaves operate his properties, considering he entered governmental politics as an older man?

There's a crap ton of posturing when it comes to slavery and the American civil war. So many layers of double standards.