The Chinese Big Lie

Really good article by HR McMaster.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/05/mcmaster-china-strategy/609088/

Worried about China's increasing influence.

BarryD2

cryptocurrency wrote: »

what next? all the nations of the world outside of europe to go "hands up, fair cop"

There's no logical reason to not believe that the virus has behaved the same in China as elsewhere. And given their population and crowded living conditions that deaths may be many, many multiples of what they have reported. The king has no clothes on.

Beechwoodspark

Updated list


Have to ask why are some on this forum so determined to deflect blame from China?

Here’s a list:

It was China’s fault to facilitate the bush meat industry and to allow unfettered consumption of wildlife meat - despite horrific animal cruelty and well known health risks

It was China’s fault that it allowed free access to “wet markets” - brazenly so- even after the knowledge that “wet markets” are a cause of zoonotic viruses

It was China’s fault to Silence and threaten ppl who alerted society about c19.

It was China’s fault that it downplayed the seriousness of c19

It was China’s fault that it provided knowingly false vital statistics about the virus to the global community.

It was China’s fault that it opted to broadcast false propaganda rather than scientific realities.

It was China’s fault that after the virus spread outside it’s borders it complained bitterly that air routes were being closed to it.

It was China’s fault to facilitate provision of useless PPE to States desperately attempting to buy some.

It was China’s fault to wait until now when the virus has spread globally to provide “revised” figures for confirmed cases and deaths in Wuhan.

Bit late now. And...as some have said...still suspiciously low?

UPDATE: as some are unclear by “China” I mean the government of China.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

UPDATE: as some are unclear by “China” I mean the government of China.

Isn't this simply a repost? I can remember seeing such a list not long ago...

Any similar list for the failures or ineptitude (intentional or not) of other countries like the US or Britain? I get that this is a China thread, but.. it just seems like a list of things taken out of context.

For example, your very first point could be leveled at a dozen countries around the world, same with the second point, along with the fourth point.

Beechwoodspark

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Isn't this simply a repost? I can remember seeing such a list not long ago...

Any similar list for the failures or ineptitude (intentional or not) of other countries like the US or Britain? I get that this is a China thread, but.. it just seems like a list of things taken out of context.

For example, your very first point could be leveled at a dozen countries around the world, same with the second point, along with the fourth point.

It’s an update of the post last week.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It’s an update of the post last week.

why? we all saw it last week.

are you going to be repeating the post every week in this thread? Seems somewhat odd.

cilantro54

Really interesting to get a glimpse into life in China, klaz. Thank you.

cilantro54

cilantro54 wrote: »

Really interesting to get a glimpse into life in China, klaz. Thank you.

My pleasure. Although I would say that you have to be there to understand. Words can't really do it justice. Some things you have to experience with your own eyes, ears and... nose.

It really is a fantastic country if you take the time to try understand the culture/history while withholding judgement for as long as possible. It really is a different world in many ways. Highly recommended, although it is changing quickly and some of it's charm has disappeared.

Beechwoodspark

[Deleted User] wrote: »

why? we all saw it last week.

are you going to be repeating the post every week in this thread? Seems somewhat odd.

It’s an update. So yes, when warranted it will be updated.

silverharp

I know its a big country and all

https://twitter.com/NatashaFatah/status/1251217030902173696

silverharp

silverharp wrote: »

I know its a big country and all

Oh, they'll be tucked away in a work camp somewhere. It doesn't work out well for anyone who breaks the cardinal rules and remains in China. They'll come out in 15 years (if they survive) looking like old men. Broken in mind and body. TBH I'm more curious as to what might happen to their families.. associated guilt extends far within Chinese society, both officially and unofficially.

JP Liz V1

Was the first case in Wuhan in November?

Wuhan now increasing their death toll by 50%

fiveleavesleft

silverharp wrote: »

I know its a big country and all

https://twitter.com/NatashaFatah/status/1251217030902173696

Wouldn't be surprised if that Fang Bin guy has already passed. He was in Wuhan filming dying people in the hospital wards, filmed the dead in body bags also. He was only wearing an ordinary mask.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

Systematic level? Which? Burning dogs or organ harvesting? Both of which are not everywhere in China...

Obviously I know no-one likes burning dogs, perhaps a minor few deranged idiots but they appear everywhere.

Perhaps they're hiding from even you (maybe its easier to hide from you while you live in China) but organ harvesting is going on at a systematic level.

I know and you know that it's not within Chinese culture to donate organs, so how is there an explosion in on demand organs procedures.

The International Society for Human Rights condemns the systematic forced organ harvesting carried out by a secret network of state-run hospitals, prisons and re-education camps, police and the military in the People’s Republic of China.

This crime against humanity has been going on for decades and it increased drastically since the persecution of Falun Gong 1999. According to the independent investigation made by Matas, Kilgour and Gutmann, number of organ transplantation annually adds up to between 60,000 to 100,000 using statistics published by the transplant hospitals inChina.

Source

China has been accused of forced organ harvesting since 2000. Initially China was charged with forcibly removing the organs of death row prisoners. China later claimed that death row prisoners consented to donating their organs to the State to redeem themselves for the crimes they had committed against the State, a practice China claimed to have stopped in January 2015. However, the explosion of organ transplant activities in China from 2000 together with reports of thousands of transplant tourists going to China to purchase organs, suggests a larger supply of organs than could be sourced from executed criminals alone. The scale of the Chinese transplant industry, together with other evidence, points to the possibility that China is involved in forced organ harvesting and selling for profit organs from prisoners of conscience.

National and international organisations and government bodies have reported on the issue of forced organ harvesting in the People’s Republic of China. Based on multiple sources of information, it has been alleged that prisoners of conscience have been killed ‘to order’ for the purposes of extracting and using their organs for profitable transplantation surgery. Victims include members of groups arbitrarily detained by the government for political reasons (primarily people who practice Falun Gong but also Tibetans, Uyghurs and House Christians). Parliamentary hearings in several countries have heard evidence on the issue, and some have passed legislation in response.

• That there were extraordinarily short waiting times (promised by PRC doctors and hospitals) for organs to be available for transplantation;
• That there was torture of Falun Gong and Uyghurs;
• That there was accumulated numerical evidence (excluding spurious PRC data) which indicated:
• the number of transplant operations performed, and
• the impossibility of there being anything like sufficient ‘eligible donors’ under the recently formed PRC voluntary donor scheme for that number of transplant operations;
• That there was a massive infrastructure development of facilities and medical personnel for organ transplant operations, often started before any voluntary donor system was even planned;- That there was direct and indirect evidence of forced organ harvesting.
  

source

For those who keep talking about world trade, economics, and China.

Take a look. Definitely worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b07eafPe7pY

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Obviously I know no-one likes burning dogs, perhaps a minor few deranged idiots but they appear everywhere.

Perhaps they're hiding from even you (maybe its easier to hide from you while you live in China) but organ harvesting is going on at a systematic level.

A secret network. Yup. Look. I know it's approved by the government. You seem to keep missing where I say that China is an incredibly corrupt country... but the idea that it's everywhere is overly dramatic.

I know and you know that it's not within Chinese culture to donate organs, so how is there an explosion in on demand organs procedures.

Money available for transplants, health damage due to pollution (especially heart and lung diseases), etc. Culture changes over time, and the Chinese are a very pragmatic people. As I said before.

In any case though, you're pushing a side issue. You gave organ harvesting as an example in regards to universal values... I haven't sought to justify the behavior of China in allowing the use of organ harvesting... not even close.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

A secret network. Yup. Look. I know it's approved by the government. You seem to keep missing where I say that China is an incredibly corrupt country... but the idea that it's everywhere is overly dramatic.

Organ harvesting is my example of a moral evil that China are undertaking. It's not a matter of 'western values' or 'chinese values' they are hiding it from their own people. You can see the wrong in it. I can. The people on the streets of China can. Everyone can.

You can say "you know the law don't break it" but there were already millions of falun gong practitioners before they made it illegal. Its like coming to Ireland and saying it's illegal to be Catholic, locking these people in prison, and harvesting their organs on demand.

The only reason I even mention corruption and the trust the people have in their government is because I thought that makes it 'extra' worse. But let's disregard that point entirely I don't mind.

BanditLuke

Deleted User wrote: »

My pleasure. Although I would say that you have to be there to understand. Words can't really do it justice. Some things you have to experience with your own eyes, ears and... nose.

It really is a fantastic country if you take the time to try understand the culture/history while withholding judgement for as long as possible. It really is a different world in many ways. Highly recommended, although it is changing quickly and some of it's charm has disappeared.

Just like all those doctors who warned about the virus so, disappeared.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Organ harvesting is my example of a moral evil that China are undertaking. It's not a matter of 'western values' or 'chinese values' they are hiding it from their own people. You can see the wrong in it. I can. The people on the streets of China can. Everyone can.

Nope. You're pushing western values on to other people... You and I can since we were raised within a western moral system. Asian people weren't. Africans weren't.

Organ harvesting is a practice that happens in many countries around the world.

"Kidneys remains the most trafficked organ world over because a patient or donor can survive with only one of them. It is estimated that approximately 7,000 kidneys are harvested and trafficked illegally each year. Indeed in 2010 the World Health Organization obtained some 11,000 illegally harvested organs most of them from countries involved in conflict."

You claim that everyone around the world knows that it's wrong. They don't. Some people are against it. Western nations tend to be against it officially, and yet, it is a practice that continues to happen within western countries as patients seek organs in less developed countries.

You can say "you know the law don't break it" but there were already millions of falun gong practitioners before they made it illegal. Its like coming to Ireland and saying it's illegal to be Catholic, locking these people in prison, and harvesting their organs on demand.

Religion has always been an extremely iffy practice to follow since Mao took over from the Nationalists. There have been many purges of all religions and sects. The problem with Falun Gong was the association as a political movement, which the CCP will never, even remotely, tolerate. Regardless of whether there was a political arm of the sect, the fact remains that the CCP hates/fears the Falun Gong, even more than they do other religions, or spiritual beliefs.

The only reason I even mention corruption and the trust the people have in their government is because I thought that makes it 'extra' worse. But let's disregard that point entirely I don't mind.

Fine, but again, you're judging China based on western culture and morality. Chinese people don't need to trust the government because it's never had any degree of democracy (that lasted longer than a few weeks). Even when it comes to monarchy type systems in Europe, the people had a greater degree of involvement through various stepping points of limiting the monarchs power, and later, that of the aristocracy. The French Revolution further expanded that involvement by the population within the sphere of power that the monarchy controlled.

China never had any of that. Imperial China was an absolute power, with the majority of Chinese people being without any degree of influence or power. The extremely short flirtation with democracy failed to grab the attention of the people either, and so, a nationalist government stepped in, reinforcing the division between the people and those in control. It's one of the reasons why Mao was so effective. He could harness the bitterness of the common person for the way they had been treated, but at the same time, not offer them any degree of direct influence to change anything. Instead, the CCP created an absolute government, within every level of Chinese society and culture.

The people having "trust" in the government is not an Asian concept. They've never needed to have trust in their government because there are no other options. They have no choice over who rules them. So, trust doesn't matter... although many Chinese people trust the "spirit" of the CCP. They believe in what Mao created and what Dao shao Pin did to develop it further, which resulted in dramatic changes for their nation.. changes that are still developing over time.

You keep applying western principles to a region that has never any interest in adopting them. Just as Asia has never accepted the European manner of diplomacy, and China has refused to play within the "rules" created after WW2 (by western powers). Even though they're a member of the UN security council, they've only ever really involved themselves when Russia wanted something, and have refused to participate until recently (the last 5-10 years).

China never accepted Christian teachings and so, there's very little impact on their traditional values comparable to what we can see in the West. Other nations in S.America or Africa, did accept the Christian teachings, and so, the values which are common within the west, are more common there too... however, even then, they're not universal since many Africans retain their traditional values through the teachings of their witch-doctors, and tribal leaders.

Lastly... when you have a population the sheer size of China and the number of disasters both natural and man-made... a culture adopts a "life is cheap" mentality. Especially, when they have so little control in stopping such disasters. The Yellow river traditionally flooded every year killing thousands of people. That happened for thousands of years, with Chinese people simply getting on with their lives. So, life is indeed cheap in China. That same mentality is common in India too. Which is why your argument about universal values fails so much. You're looking out at the world from a western perspective.. you're not trying to understand what it's like from an eastern perspective. unfortunately its a common mistake by westerners.. this assumption that their own cultural values are or should be accepted by everyone... regardless of whether they want them or not.

BanditLuke

BanditLuke wrote: »

Just like all those doctors who warned about the virus so, disappeared.

Scroll up. I said as much before you. :rolleyes:

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. You're pushing western values on to other people... You and I can since we were raised within a western moral system. Asian people weren't. Africans weren't.

Which is why your argument about universal values fails so much. You're looking out at the world from a western perspective.. you're not trying to understand what it's like from an eastern perspective.

Look I enjoy discussing with you, for the most part you're honest and engaging. But you constantly bereting other posters because they don't shared the same lived experience as you is ridiculous.

I grew up with a mix of western and eastern values, having family in Thailand and China. There are not many chinese people that would agree with organ harvesting, if it was described to them in full detail, in fact would probably be revolted by it(and they were free from reprecussions when talking about it).

The practice of organ harvesting of course goes on illegally because there is big money to be made all over the world, but the only country that does it at a systematic level by the authorities is the Chinese.

cryptocurrency

bob mcbob wrote: »

I read a lot of your posts from that thread and it is hilarious

Some of the gems were

(when talking about the recording capability of your watch) No it is on my wrist. It is also a 4g phone so it pick up both parties very clearly. Great price of kit.

I’d say I pay a company to leaflet every house in the neighborhood explaining the situation and calling on them to pony up with when we know doesn’t exist or come clean and apologies.

No drawn queen here. I am just not Mondeo man who has accepted his place to be walked on by low brow land lords.

Society needs to take the power from these publicans and make they as accountable as any shop keeping. They are basically just a glorified centra manager. People have a duty..all of us . To drive this shift and clip their wings to the level of all other shop keepers

Do have a blog or something. I am a bit bored at the moment and could really do with a good laugh.

few beers in I might starting typing more again now. You get the gist and if you don't like it, suck it up.

Blog, no. No time.

Go and be cr$$ somewhere else.

silverharp

so blatent

https://twitter.com/realFFK/status/1251148703500386304

ThewhiteJesus

silverharp wrote: »

so blatent

https://twitter.com/realFFK/status/1251148703500386304

That’s crazy but not surprising, Chinese people are really unique I never realised until I lived in Sydney along time ago and saw their carry on first hand, the aussies I knew hated them

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Look I enjoy discussing with you, for the most part you're honest and engaging. But you constantly bereting other posters because they don't shared the same lived experience as you is ridiculous.

Really? Where have I said that people needed to experience what I have experienced? I have no problem with you arguing against my points... just show some insight rather than claiming an insight.

Here's the difference. I'm fascinated by modern Chinese culture. I live in China, and I read everything that might possibly improve my life there. So I read about the CCP. I read about Chinese culture. I read books written by Chinese authors, and I pay attention to the PRC media (both state and partially independent). I also talk to people of all social levels there. I've attended CCP conferences and I also go to my university's political classes that the students have to attend every week. I also have friends in the PSB or within the upper administration levels of the local government. I'm curious about how it all works, and the fact that I'm not judgmental about it all, means that people talk to me. I also have security clearance to teach on some Chinese military bases (their air force mostly), and have had my background fully checked out by the PSB. I've played along, and I've seen how the government operates... and what happens "unofficially".

For you, everything about China is analytical or theoretical. For me, it has practical considerations, and so, it's something that I've seen, firsthand, in my own life.

That's not to say that I believe your opinions to be worthless.. I don't. I wouldn't be posting here if I did. However, I do hope to see some basic appreciation of the differences between Chinese and western culture, and an understanding of the lifestyle for Chinese people in China. Some posters here have shown an understanding of China's history and how that affects the present day. Which is wonderful to see.

At the same time though, I have seen too many posts judging and analyzing China through the tinted glasses of western morality, as if such a thing is universal. It's not. Such ignorance is one of the main reasons for the Vietnam war happening. Assuming that their values were shared by everyone.. cultural and moral superiority, and it's something I'd like to see disappear.

I grew up with a mix of western and eastern values, having family in Thailand and China. There are not many chinese people that would agree with organ harvesting, if it was described to them in full detail, in fact would probably be revolted by it(and they were free from reprecussions when talking about it).

I teach at university level and we (the students/other professors) have many debates on various subjects. The idea that most topics are taboo is outdated. We've had debates on the issues of Taiwan, Tibet, etc.

And to put it simply, they'll agree with you out of politeness. Out of the unwillingness to cause disruption or aggression. You won't be getting their true feelings on any subject because that's not how Chinese culture works. So... you can go into detail about the Organ trade, and they'll agree with you... and then forget the conversation immediately afterwards because they honestly, don't care. It doesn't relate directly to their lives.

The practice of organ harvesting of course goes on illegally because there is big money to be made all over the world, but the only country that does it at a systematic level by the authorities is the Chinese.

Many countries around the world have been slow to implement laws against Organ tourism, or the importing of organ donors from poor countries. Forced organ harvesting is little different from going to a starving person, and offering them 6 months wages for their kidneys. Or the kidneys of their child,

As I said earlier, I don't seek to justify Chinese forced organ harvesting.. My opinion is not going to the change the attitude of the wealthy American who goes to China for an organ, or the officials who allow the sale of organs from their prisons.

BarryD2

Deleted User wrote: »

Lastly... when you have a population the sheer size of China and the number of disasters both natural and man-made... a culture adopts a "life is cheap" mentality. Especially, when they have so little control in stopping such disasters. The Yellow river traditionally flooded every year killing thousands of people. That happened for thousands of years, with Chinese people simply getting on with their lives. So, life is indeed cheap in China. That same mentality is common in India too. Which is why your argument about universal values fails so much. You're looking out at the world from a western perspective.. you're not trying to understand what it's like from an eastern perspective. unfortunately its a common mistake by westerners.. this assumption that their own cultural values are or should be accepted by everyone... regardless of whether they want them or not.

I have little doubt but that this is a fair observation. And one which should result in health experts and the media in Europe casting a very cold eye on Chinese infection & death statistics.

But what were we hearing practically every day for a while was that this virus was beaten in China and all we have to do is follow the Chinese model... and posters here defending this record.

The question is: can you trust any information on such matters that comes from China?

BarryD2

BarryD2 wrote: »

I have little doubt but that this is a fair observation. And one which should result in health experts and the media in Europe casting a very cold eye on Chinese infection & death statistics.

But what were we hearing practically every day for a while was that this virus was beaten in China and all we have to do is follow the Chinese model... and posters here defending this record.

The question is: can you trust any information on such matters that comes from China?

It would have been extremely naive and ignorant to believe that China had beaten the virus, considering that the virus will continue to be a thing until a vaccine is created and distributed. Their measures to contain or decrease the spread of the virus were effective... that should be accepted as being accurate, but this virus is not beaten anywhere. As evidenced by Wuhan decreasing the restrictions, and then the infected rates exploding once more.

It is interesting though because it was western media plugging the lines that China had beaten the virus. Sure, Chinese media was doing similar although they were also highlighting the serious risks from those without symptoms, and saying the WHO estimates about the virus weren't accurate. Within China, they were still encouraging people to be careful, and that the virus wasn't beaten.

As for your question.... I have said many times that I wouldn't immediately trust anything that came from the CCP. Anything. Not without fact checking independently. But then, I feel the same about western media too.

The CCP has never been honest about statistics. Never. When economists or analysts look at China's cash reserves, they guess what they are, because the released data by the CCP fluctuates so wildly that it's obvious that the amounts are false. The same can be said about any statistic including their population. The point though is this sudden belief of being lied to.. is something new. It's not.

I really don't accept this sudden naivety by western media and people in general. There are hundreds of articles from long before the virus appearing, talking about how unreliable Chinese released statistics and statements are... but now, there's such outrage that the CCP weren't honest and transparent. They've never been transparent. It's such a load of bollocks this sudden innocence by westerners.. It's a cop out. Oh! we were tricked! Complete rubbish..

ek motor

Deleted User wrote: »

It would have been extremely naive and ignorant to believe that China had beaten the virus, considering that the virus will continue to be a thing until a vaccine is created and distributed. Their measures to contain or decrease the spread of the virus were effective... that should be accepted as being accurate, but this virus is not beaten anywhere. As evidenced by Wuhan decreasing the restrictions, and then the infected rates exploding once more.

It is interesting though because it was western media plugging the lines that China had beaten the virus. Sure, Chinese media was doing similar although they were also highlighting the serious risks from those without symptoms, and saying the WHO estimates about the virus weren't accurate. Within China, they were still encouraging people to be careful, and that the virus wasn't beaten.

As for your question.... I have said many times that I wouldn't immediately trust anything that came from the CCP. Anything. Not without fact checking independently. But then, I feel the same about western media too.

The CCP has never been honest about statistics. Never. When economists or analysts look at China's cash reserves, they guess what they are, because the released data by the CCP fluctuates so wildly that it's obvious that the amounts are false. The same can be said about any statistic including their population. The point though is this sudden belief of being lied to.. is something new. It's not.

I really don't accept this sudden naivety by western media and people in general. There are hundreds of articles from long before the virus appearing, talking about how unreliable Chinese released statistics and statements are... but now, there's such outrage that the CCP weren't honest and transparent. They've never been transparent. It's such a load of bollocks this sudden innocence by westerners.. It's a cop out. Oh! we were tricked! Complete rubbish..

Fair point, but most people have never had any reason to question statistics coming out of China before this. Most people wouldn't care about China's population or economic stats. Now we realise they're bull****ting their numbers.

bob mcbob

cryptocurrency wrote: »

few beers in I might starting typing more again now. You get the gist and if you don't like it, suck it up.

Blog, no. No time.

Go and be cr$$ somewhere else.

So it took you 12 hours and some beers for this devastating comebeck.

I am crushed

ek motor

ek motor wrote: »

Fair point, but most people have never had any reason to question statistics coming out of China before this. Most people wouldn't care about China's population or economic stats. Now we realise they're bull****ting their numbers.

And would people feel the same about US statistics or information released by US media?

Unlikely. They'll shrug it off, offering little excuses and justifications for it happening. Consider the reputation of say, an established media platform, like Fox news. We've been hearing for decades the rubbish and outright misinformation coming from them, but it's 'allowed'. There's no outrage. Just as with the propaganda and lies given out by the Bush administration leading up (and after) the invasion of Iraq. Or the Obama administration with regards to drone usage and civilian casualties. Or the very pro-feminist agenda articles that misrepresent statistics on gendered domestic abuse to match their agendas.

People want to be ignorant until it directly affects them.. so that they can show outrage for being tricked...

China hasn't been doing much that western media, and in some cases, western governments have been doing for decades. The difference is that there is some higher expectation that China should be better... which is weird considering the history of their government.. whereas with Western institutions, there's a few weeks of outrage, and then it's forgotten, although the behavior continues, but since nobody is particularly interested, it doesn't matter. Think Guantanamo bay and US human rights abuses. It's one of the reasons that Chinese people have such little respect for both Western politics and Western media. Hypocrisy abounds.

So, nah, I'm not surprised or outraged by Chinese behavior. But then, I'm not holding them to a standard that I don't equally apply to western institutions. Eyes open.