The Chinese Big Lie

cryptocurrency

BanditLuke wrote: »

At the moment everyone is pretty much holding fire on China because of the PPE situation because the CCP are the kind of scum who would withdraw selling to anyone who questions them.

There absolutely no doubt though that China will pay a massive price for their cover up.

Has the cover up been proven?

What price will various western governments pay to their people for gross incompetence and cover ups, out of interest?

Wibbs

BanditLuke wrote: »

There absolutely no doubt though that China will pay a massive price for their cover up.

Which is all grand in theory, but... OK let's imagine the rest of the world finds out tomorrow incontrovertible proof that China hid the data for months, even that yep it started in one of their bioweapon labs etc. OK, what then? What could the rest of the world do about it? Go to the UN? Big deal, the Chinese would just ignore anything they said. The west lost her sh1t over tiananmen square. terrible stuff altogether. And camps for dissidents and organ harvesting and, etc. People still bought their stuff, which leads onto the next bit.

Sanctions? The Chinese produce so much stuff for the world, that's not going to work too well. Hell, how many on this site would have an Alibaba account? The tat you buy from the aisle of shame in Lidl and Aldi is nearly all Chinese made. Your phone is likely Chinese made, your PC certainly is, your telly and damned near every bit of electronic stuff you own is going to be Chinese in origin. Your medicines too. Clothes, quite a lot of it and so on. About the only thing in most people's lives that's not obviously Chinese made is their car. Though all those touch screens and leccy gadgets? Yup, you guessed it.

War? yep, the Yanks could bugger up China even today, but then how would Russia feel about that? Suddenly a bad dose that mostly kills the sick and the old would look like a welcome thing. Never mind that America seems ever divided in politics and personal wealth and looks like every other superpower and empire of the past in decay.

We're in China's pocket. We got lazy while they were building. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing though. If we get our fingers out.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

I do love how you compliment me, speaking all nicey nice and then seek to discredit me. :rolleyes:

I'm not at all. You seem a lovely person I genuinely mean that. I seek to discredit some of your ideas. The idea that I am applying a western lense to things, when there are millions of dissidents inside and outside of China who do not agree with their human right's record, who have lost their lives as prisoner's of conscience.

I'd like to make clear this is not an Easten value by any stretch of the imagination; more of an authoritarian regime type of value. It is by covering it up they keep it beneath the surface where not many people know. VPNs are all well and good, but you see the amount of **** in the western world believe on social media, can you imagine how hard it is for rational sane people in China to believe what they see when they connect to their VPN.

You must admit as a foreigner there you have more privileges than the Chinese themselves would often get. (obviously the Chinese have many more privileges that you wouldn't enjoy too) For fear of media backlash on you they'd prefer to kick you out if anything happens. For the inhabitants themselves they often process organs.

tigerboon

BanditLuke wrote: »

At the moment everyone is pretty much holding fire on China because of the PPE situation because the CCP are the kind of scum who would withdraw selling to anyone who questions them.

There absolutely no doubt though that China will pay a massive price for their cover up.

A massive price might be demanded but how likely are the Chinese to pay? And what then?

BanditLuke

BanditLuke wrote: »

At the moment everyone is pretty much holding fire on China because of the PPE situation because the CCP are the kind of scum who would withdraw selling to anyone who questions them.

There absolutely no doubt though that China will pay a massive price for their cover up.

I have a lot of doubt that China will pay any price, and I've seen extremely little either on boards or in the media to suggest otherwise.

I suspect there will be a lot of posturing, and snide remarks by Trump, but little beyond that. Just like those on the internet.

Repeating it over and over doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

We're in China's pocket. We got lazy while they were building. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing though. If we get our fingers out.

Banning organ tourism is a good start many countries have officially banned.

After gunshots were heard, we rushed in. An armed officer directed us to the far-right corner, where I can see a civilian-clothed man lying on the ground with a single bullet wound to his right chest.
My chief surgeons ordered and guided me to extract the liver and the two kidneys. The man was alive. He tried to resist my scalpel cut but [was] too weak to avoid my action.
There was bleeding. He was still alive.

Dr. Enver Tohti Bughda speaking at the houses of the Oireachtas.

keynes

tigerboon wrote: »

A massive price might be demanded but how likely are the Chinese to pay? And what then?

The US could default of the 1 trillion of Treasury debt the Chinese own. That seems the most natural and expedient way for China to compensate the US

cryptocurrency

Wibbs wrote: »

Which is all grand in theory, but... OK let's imagine the rest of the world finds out tomorrow incontrovertible proof that China hid the data for months, even that yep it started in one of their bioweapon labs etc. OK, what then? What could the rest of the world do about it? Go to the UN? Big deal, the Chinese would just ignore anything they said. The west lost her sh1t over tiananmen square. terrible stuff altogether. And camps for dissidents and organ harvesting and, etc. People still bought their stuff, which leads onto the next bit.

Sanctions? The Chinese produce so much stuff for the world, that's not going to work too well. Hell, how many on this site would have an Alibaba account? The tat you buy from the aisle of shame in Lidl and Aldi is nearly all Chinese made. Your phone is likely Chinese made, your PC certainly is, your telly and damned near every bit of electronic stuff you own is going to be Chinese in origin. Your medicines too. Clothes, quite a lot of it and so on. About the only thing in most people's lives that's not obviously Chinese made is their car. Though all those touch screens and leccy gadgets? Yup, you guessed it.

War? yep, the Yanks could bugger up China even today, but then how would Russia feel about that? Suddenly a bad dose that mostly kills the sick and the old would look like a welcome thing. Never mind that America seems ever divided in politics and personal wealth and looks like every other superpower and empire of the past in decay.

We're in China's pocket. We got lazy while they were building. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing though. If we get our fingers out.

I agree with most of that but the US doesn't really have a good record at winning wars.

cryptocurrency

keynes wrote: »

The US could default of the 1 trillion of Treasury debt the Chinese own. That seems the most natural and expedient way for China to compensate the US

The US defaults then they are a defaulter and treated accordingly. If they are open about wanting money I will look with interests the floodgates this will open.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

I'm not at all. You seem a lovely person I genuinely mean that. I seek to discredit some of your ideas.

Then do so. I mean it. Argue the points I made. You don't though. You've introduced new variable all the time, and give a very shallow opinion on my points. You're not discrediting anything.

The idea that I am applying a western lense to things, when there are millions of dissidents inside and outside of China who do not agree with their human right's record, who have lost their lives as prisoner's of conscience.

The idea that I am applying a western lense to things.... you didn't finish your sentence. You've mixed up sentences providing a lead, and adding a sentence with no relation to the previous statement. so.. The idea that I am applying a western lense to things... yes?

I'd like to make clear this is not an Easten value by any stretch of the imagination; more of an authoritarian regime type of value. It is by covering it up they keep it beneath the surface where not many people know. VPNs are all well and good, but you see the amount of **** in the western world believe on social media, can you imagine how hard it is for rational sane people in China to believe what they see when they connect to their VPN.

They don't believe it. That's the whole point. Western media has no credibility. Neither do western governments. You're applying a selective sense of morality when it comes to China, dismissing the failures of the west, and applying a higher sense of standards to China.. which you're unwilling to equally apply to the west.

You must admit as a foreigner there you have more privileges than the Chinese themselves would often get. (obviously the Chinese have many more privileges that you wouldn't enjoy too) For fear of media backlash on you they'd prefer to kick you out if anything happens. For the inhabitants themselves they often process organs.

Oh Jesus, back to the organs again. I do wonder if you've bothered to read the links that you provided before because you have a very inaccurate view of the Organ harvesting trade in China. It's not as common as you keep implying, and most Chinese prisoners aren't harvested for their organs. Select "special" groups being picked for organ harvesting... political prisoners, Violent criminals, undesirables, etc. This idea of yours that all Chinese people are in serious risk of their organs being harvested is pure fantasy.

Just as you keep ignoring that Chinese people can speak their opinions within the framework of their culture... a culture you appear to have zero interest in understanding. Which is probably why you can't accept that they have voices of their own, but no actual interest in the causes you find important.

keynes

keynes wrote: »

The US could default of the 1 trillion of Treasury debt the Chinese own. That seems the most natural and expedient way for China to compensate the US

Giving China valid reason to take the US to court over breaking international law... yeah,, that's such a great idea. You realise that it still has to be proven that China was in any way legally responsible for what happened?

It simply reinforces the belief that high-minded beliefs in a better system only apply to other countries and not western nations.

Beechwoodspark

Rolling monthly multi billion dollar fines imposed on China by the countries affected by c19 would be a start

BanditLuke

archer22 wrote: »

And what will that be in your opinion?

Many nations will sue the Chinese.

Sanctions.

Possible debt defaults

Trump is the great unknown. He is liable to do much more than this including military options. Hopefully not but who knows.

cryptocurrency

BanditLuke wrote: »

Many nations will sue the Chinese.

Sanctions.

Possible debt defaults

Trump is the great unknown. He is liable to do much more than this including military options. Hopefully not but who knows.

You live in a parallel universe to sane people

cryptocurrency

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Rolling monthly multi billion dollar fines imposed on China by the countries affected by c19 would be a start

You need to stop bleating your fantasy on here. People want grown up and serious discussion.

Beechwoodspark

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You need to stop bleating your fantasy on here. People want grown up and serious discussion.

Ok so there’s your blind spot - It IS grown up and serious. It may well happen crypto

cryptocurrency

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ok so there’s your blind spot - It IS grown up and serious. It may well happen crypto

No Beechwoodspark, it isn't serious. Nations like the UK, US and France etc..are in zero position to look for reparations as the can of worms it would open for them is a million times bigger.

silverharp

ideas like reparations are nonsense, it just comes down to an open system cant work with a closed system. Being friends with china hasn't worked, you don't want them as an enemy so the obvious solution is to decouple over time.

MadYaker

silverharp wrote: »

ideas like reparations are nonsense, it just comes down to an open system cant work with a closed system. Being friends with china hasn't worked, you don't want them as an enemy so the obvious solution is to decouple over time.

If they could give solid reassurance to the international community that the sale of wild animals will actually be stopped, not just made illegal and that if there is another outbreak they won’t try and ignore it for 6 weeks that would be a start. If this happens again then economic sanctions. Meanwhile we all need start getting domestic manufacturing going so we don’t need to trade with them as much.

archer22

BanditLuke wrote: »

Many nations will sue the Chinese.

Sanctions.

Possible debt defaults

Trump is the great unknown. He is liable to do much more than this including military options. Hopefully not but who knows.

You do know how western military operations against Communists countries have fared out?
There have been five and they ended in 4 wins for the communists and 1 draw.

Germany versus Soviet Union= Germany destroyed
American and UN forces versus North Korea = draw
France versus Vietnam= France routed
American proxy army versus Cuba= proxy army destroyed
America and allies versus Vietnam= America and allies routed

And now you think the west is going to take on the biggest communist nation of all, and one that can raise an army of what..500 or 600 million if put on a war footing.
Best of luck to the poor fool who launches that war, he will need it

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

If they could give solid reassurance to the international community that the sale of wild animals will actually be stopped, not just made illegal and that if there is another outbreak they won’t try and ignore it for 6 weeks that would be a start. If this happens again then economic sanctions. Meanwhile we all need start getting domestic manufacturing going so we don’t need to trade with them as much.

when was these 6 weeks?

BanditLuke

Things now beginning to unravel for China.

The French nobel prize for medicine winning virologist Luc Montagneir has claimed the virus originated in a laboratory.

https://www.gulftoday.ae/lifestyle/2020/04/19/french-nobel-prize-winning-scientist-luc-montagnier-claims-covid-19-virus-originated-in-lab

BanditLuke

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You need to stop bleating your fantasy on here. People want grown up and serious discussion.

Why are you posting then?

BanditLuke

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You live in a parallel universe to sane people

Funny you should say that. Another poster said the very same thing back in the end of January about me when I said this virus would collapse the world economy and kill many thousands of people in Europe.

Opps.

Varik

Deleted User wrote: »

Giving China valid reason to take the US to court over breaking international law... yeah,, that's such a great idea. You realise that it still has to be proven that China was in any way legally responsible for what happened?

It simply reinforces the belief that high-minded beliefs in a better system only apply to other countries and not western nations.

What court or laws do you think apply here.

archer22

MadYaker wrote: »

If they could give solid reassurance to the international community that the sale of wild animals will actually be stopped, not just made illegal and that if there is another outbreak they won’t try and ignore it for 6 weeks that would be a start. If this happens again then economic sanctions. Meanwhile we all need start getting domestic manufacturing going so we don’t need to trade with them as much.

Agree with you there, China needs to seriously clean up it's act regarding the horrific barbaric treatment and consumption of Animals..including the trade in endangered species.

If it does not it will always be a ticking bomb that poses a threat not only to rest of the world but also to itself.
If they don't stop then the next disaster maybe worse than this current one.

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Rolling monthly multi billion dollar fines imposed on China by the countries affected by c19 would be a start

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ok so there’s your blind spot - It IS grown up and serious. It may well happen crypto

Well, then tell us a few things.

1) How would it be justified? There is no legal precedent for such a claim, nor has China been proven (and formally judged) to be legally responsible.

1b) How would you prove that China is legally responsible, considering there is zero proof that the virus was their responsibility, or that their actions made the situation worse.

2) What would you do when China claims that the demands for reparations are unfair, since they also suffered from the virus, and that they further suffered after their lockdowns from infected foreigners coming to China (from countries that didn't lockdown or implement containment measures)?

3) How would such a ruling be enforced diplomatically? Within the UN, China is a member of the security council, with close ties to Russia. It's highly unlikely that Russia will side with anyone against China. So, you've got two security members against it from the start.

4) I assume you believe that it would be enforced through the threat of military action by the US? Yes? Since Europe's Military is a joke. What do the US get to gain from all this? (considering we would be talking serious amounts of body bags being sent home)

5) How would you feel if China decided to respond to such aggression by closing it's borders to westerners, and only dealing with Asia and Russia? And responding to any military adventures with nuclear weapons?

You said you were serious and being grown up. So... explain to me in some detail how you see this developing. None of the usual vague statements please. Nor, expecting others to figure it out for you... put some thought into it, and give us some practical and realistic answers.

Varik

Varik wrote: »

What court or laws do you think apply here.

None,.... because the idea of seeking reparations or leveling sanctions on China over this virus is absolute nonsense.

archer22

Threats, Sanctions and Reparations talk is pointless and counter productive.

There needs to be calm level headed dialogue to ensure measures are enacted and enforced to ensure the chances of this ever happening again are minimal.

If nothing is done and everything goes back to 'normal' again, then other nations may have to reevaluate their relationship with China.

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

Threats, Sanctions and Reparations talk is pointless and counter productive.

There needs to be calm level headed dialogue to ensure measures are enacted and enforced to ensure the chances of this ever happening again are minimal.

If nothing is done and everything goes back to 'normal' again, then other nations may have to reevaluate their relationship with China.

It's not going to go back to normal. China and Chinese people are pushing internally for more laws, and better ways to increase the general hygiene within China. It is going to change... but considering the size of China and the traditional culture which is resistant to change, it will take time.

The real problem is that posters above expect China to immediately change and suddenly have a 1st world approach to everything. It's unrealistic... but then there are a lot of foolish attitudes in the world.

Just as the demands that China receive sanctions or punishment, ignores the fact that we need China's manufacturing base to produce a vaccine. Worldwide, there are extremely limited facilities to mass produce a vaccine and punishing China will not encourage them to help us.

This is something I find really interesting. Those who push for punishing China are more interested in punishing, than in saving lives. There's no belief that they should sacrifice their indignation at China for the greater good.. Doesn't anyone else notice the selfishness of their attitude? (since we are disregarding any responsibility for Western nations for what happened)