The Chinese Big Lie

2u2me

MadYaker wrote: »

Ok I’ll try once more. Can you please take at least ten minutes to read this and consider what’s in it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/birth-of-a-pandemic-inside-the-first-weeks-of-the-coronavirus-outbreak-in-wuhan

Dr. Li's research was not substantiated (at least at the time). I'm not defending the actions of the CCP here.

There is however an online lecture from Dr. Shi zhengli saying that her research was corroborated that was withheld for 1 week.

Wuhan-based virologist Shi Zhengli has identified dozens of deadly SARS-like viruses in bat caves, and she warns there are more out there

Scientists have long warned that the rate of emergence of new infectious diseases is accelerating—especially in developing countries where high densities of people and animals increasingly mingle and move about.[...]
Shi instructed her team to repeat the tests and, at the same time, sent the samples to another laboratory to sequence the full viral genomes. Meanwhile she frantically went through her own laboratory’s records from the past few years to check for any mishandling of experimental materials, especially during disposal. Shi breathed a sigh of relief when the results came back: none of the sequences matched those of the viruses her team had sampled from bat caves. “That really took a load off my mind,” she says. “I had not slept a wink for days.”[...]
On February 24 the nation announced a permanent ban on wildlife consumption and trade except for research or medicinal or display purposes—which will stamp out an industry worth $76 billion and put approximately 14 million people out of jobs, according to a 2017 report commissioned by the Chinese Academy of Engineering. Some welcome the initiative, whereas others, such as Daszak, worry that without efforts to change people’s traditional beliefs or provide alternative livelihoods, a blanket ban may push the business underground. This could make disease detection even more challenging. “Eating wildlife has been part of the cultural tradition in southern China” for thousands of years, Daszak says. “It won’t change overnight.”

maninasia

Heres a good article with a timeline.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8234951/RICHARD-PENDLEBURY-JOHN-NASH-Chinas-role-coronavirus-crisis.html


Dr Shi reviewing her own work and making a conclusion they weren't involved doesn't fill me with confidence .

MadYaker

There'll be an international investigation of some sort to try and get to the bottom of what happened.

blinding

MadYaker wrote: »

There'll be an international investigation of some sort to try and get to the bottom of what happened.

Who will that be ? Certainly not China’s WHO ! Hopefully !

BarryD2

Deleted User wrote: »

Answer me this. Who is going to force China to accept punishment? They don't need our markets. We need the Chinese market.

China may or may not need our markets but it's currently an important part of their economy is it not? On the imports side, they have been doing huge trade with Australia for iron ore and coal too as far as I know.

JPCN1

BILD EDITOR-IN-CHIEF RESPONDS TO THE CHINESE PRESIDENT "You are endangering the world“

Von: JULIAN REICHELT

17.04.2020 - 14:27 Uhr

Dear President Xi Jinping

Your embassy in Berlin has addressed me in an open letter because we asked in our newspaper BILD whether China should pay for the massive economic damage the corona virus is inflicting worldwide.

Let me respond:

1. You rule by surveillance. You wouldn't be president without surveillance. You monitor everything, every citizen, but you refuse to monitor the diseased wet markets in your country.

You shut down every newspaper and website that is critical of your rule, but not the stalls where bat soup is sold. You are not only monitoring your people, you are endangering them – and with them, the rest of the world.

2. Surveillance is a denial of freedom. And a nation that is not free, is not creative. A nation that is not innovative, does not invent anything . This is why you have made your country the world champion in intellectual property theft.

China enriches itself with the inventions of others, instead of inventing on its own. The reason China does not innovate and invent is that you don't let the young people in your country think freely. China’s greatest export hit (that nobody wanted to have, but which has nevertheless gone around the world) is Corona.

3. You, your government and your scientists had to know long ago that Corona is highly infectious, but you left the world in the dark about it. Your top experts didn't respond when Western researchers asked to know what was going on in Wuhan.

You were too proud and too nationalistic to tell the truth, which you felt was a national disgrace.

4. The "Washington Post" reports that your laboratories in Wuhan have been researching corona viruses in bats, butwithout maintaining the highest safety standards. Why are your toxic laboratories not as secure as your prisons for political prisoners?

Would you like to explain this to the grieving widows, daughters, sons, husbands, parents of Corona victims all over the world?

5. In your country, your people are whispering about you. Your power is crumbling. You have created an inscrutable, non-transparent China. Before Corona, China was known as a surveillance state. Now, China is known as a surveillance state that infected the world with a deadly disease.

That is your political legacy.

Your embassy tells me that I am not living up to the "traditional friendship of our peoples.” I suppose you consider it a great "friendship" when you now generously send masks around the world. This isn’t friendship, I would call it imperialism hidden behind a smile – a Trojan Horse.

You plan to strengthen China through a plague that you exported. You will not succeed. Corona will be your political end, sooner or later.

Yours sincerely

Julian Reichert


Less than temperate as I gather was the Chinese response. Choppy waters ahead.

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

It's not, you've been given examples repeatedly.

Examples, and little beyond that. There hasn't any explanation and any logical arguments put forward. Instead, its a vague statement, which isn't defended, and then repeated a few pages later in the thread. Rinse and repeat.

BarryD2 wrote: »

China may or may not need our markets but it's currently an important part of their economy is it not? On the imports side, they have been doing huge trade with Australia for iron ore and coal too as far as I know.

Okay, I address this earlier and it was ignored. China imports large quantities of resources because it's following a strategy of using up foreign resources which are finite, before tapping into their own natural supply. China has huge amounts of resources which could be mined, but it's simply cheaper to import them, rather than set up the infrastructure. At the same time, using foreign resources, weakens foreign nations because once those sources are finished, China will be in a stronger position as an exporter.

As for being an important part of their economy, somewhat. It's not as important as some here seem to think. Foreign companies tend to sell to the Chinese market, as Chinese people are avid shoppers. In terms of foreign business in China, manufacturing goods, there really aren't that many due to the limitations placed by the CCP regarding strategic industries. Most factories are owned by Chinese businesses or the government, and leased out to foreign companies... but China would still have a market for goods produced in China for foreign markets... because they've tied a large portion of 3rd world countries to them through providing debt options.

JPCN1

JPCN1 wrote: »

Less than temperate as I gather was the Chinese response. Choppy waters ahead.

So,.. if i bother to address points within the letter, are you going to actually argue them? Or is this just a post and release thingy?

cryptocurrency

November 17, 2019: At least six weeks before the Chinese authorities inform the WHO about a problem in Wuhan, patients are being hospitalised with a new ‘pneumonia-like’ illness.

According to government data leaked to the South China Morning Post last month, a 55-year-old from Hubei province, of which Wuhan is the capital, could be the first known person to have contracted Covid-19.

He is hospitalised on November 17. Was this ‘Patient Zero’? From this date onwards, ‘one to five new cases . . . (is) reported each day’.

December 10: Wei Guixian, a seafood merchant at the Huanan market, is hospitalised.

December 15: The total number of known infections of this mystery illness stands at 27.

December 17: The first double-digit daily rise. The leaked government papers suggest these figures were later backdated: the authorities did not yet know the patients all had the same virus.

December 18: A 65-year-old deliveryman at Huanan market is admitted to the Central Hospital of Wuhan with pneumonia.

December 24: Fluid samples are taken from the deliveryman’s lungs and sent for analysis at the Visions Medicals genomics laboratory in Guangzhou.

December 26: Warning bells begin to ring at last. Zhang Jixian, head of the respiratory department at Hubei Xinhua Hospital, notices a growing number of patients with pneumonia who are linked to Huanan market. He fears the worst and reports the situation to colleagues. The report is passed on to Chinese health authorities.

December 27: The threat is confirmed. According to Zhao Su, head of respiratory medicine at the Central Hospital of Wuhan, the lab does not send back the market deliveryman’s results as usual. Their findings are so urgent they phone him instead.

‘They said it was a new coronavirus,’ Zhao later tells a Chinese news source. In fact, the results show an alarming similarity – 87 per cent — to the deadly SARS virus which killed around 800 people in 2002-03. The deliveryman is transferred to Wuhan Jinyintang Hospital, where he dies.

Samples from ‘at least eight’ other patients are sent to a number of Chinese genomics companies. All the results will point to a new coronavirus.

December 30: Dr Li Wenliang, an ophthalmologist at Wuhan Central Hospital contacts former medical classmates on Chinese social media site WeChat. Seven patients at his hospital have a SARS-like virus and are in quarantine. He says colleagues should protect themselves. And so should he — from the authorities.

That evening Wuhan’s Health Commission sends an urgent internal notice to all hospitals about 27 cases of ‘pneumonia of unclear cause’ but with links to Huanan market. It orders all departments to report information about known cases. The notice omits any mention of a coronavirus. Later leaked online, it is the first sign of officialdom acknowledging a problem.

December 31: China notifies the World Health Organisation about the emergence of an unidentified infectious disease but says there is ‘no obvious human to human transmission’. WHO officials send Beijing a list of questions about the outbreak.

Now the suppression of information and crackdown on whistle-blowers begins. Police announce they are investigating eight people for spreading rumours about the outbreak. All are doctors, including Wuhan ophthalmologist Dr Li. Wuhan’s Health commission, its hand forced by ‘rumours’, announces that 27 people are suffering from pneumonia of an unknown cause. Its statement says: ‘The disease is controllable.’

If the Daily Mail's timeline is correct then that is a very tight timeframe. We know by the start of January China had been engaged internationally with the science community for a few of weeks. According to UK advisors.


The virus was brand new and it is entirely logical that in a city of 11 million that by December 15th the 27 cases of people presenting with a pneumonia-like illness were still being treated locally as having pneumonia. I don't see where this Bruce Willis moment to save the day was gonna happen. I don't see where this window is where people are claiming they world could have been saved if only the westetn world was told.

Now, moving on to the 31st of December and through to the 11 of January when the genome was circulated globally I still don't see this moment where the world could be saved and by whom. It was clear they still didn't know what it was and how contagious it was. The big banquet in Wuhan on the 19th shows that.

Now, with all this info being global, for at least a few weeks now, why was European leaders still sitting around like chimps trying to fit the square piece through the tiangle hole in mid march.

I am still failing to see where the lost window that the west would save the world and it would have been nipped in the bud where it started.

Seems this virus was coming if we liked it or not and the more of these timelines that are produced the more clear it is.

cryptocurrency

JPCN1 wrote: »

BILD EDITOR-IN-CHIEF RESPONDS TO THE CHINESE PRESIDENT "You are endangering the world“

Von: JULIAN REICHELT

17.04.2020 - 14:27 Uhr

Dear President Xi Jinping

Your embassy in Berlin has addressed me in an open letter because we asked in our newspaper BILD whether China should pay for the massive economic damage the corona virus is inflicting worldwide.

Let me respond:

1. You rule by surveillance. You wouldn't be president without surveillance. You monitor everything, every citizen, but you refuse to monitor the diseased wet markets in your country.

You shut down every newspaper and website that is critical of your rule, but not the stalls where bat soup is sold. You are not only monitoring your people, you are endangering them – and with them, the rest of the world.

2. Surveillance is a denial of freedom. And a nation that is not free, is not creative. A nation that is not innovative, does not invent anything . This is why you have made your country the world champion in intellectual property theft.

China enriches itself with the inventions of others, instead of inventing on its own. The reason China does not innovate and invent is that you don't let the young people in your country think freely. China’s greatest export hit (that nobody wanted to have, but which has nevertheless gone around the world) is Corona.

3. You, your government and your scientists had to know long ago that Corona is highly infectious, but you left the world in the dark about it. Your top experts didn't respond when Western researchers asked to know what was going on in Wuhan.

You were too proud and too nationalistic to tell the truth, which you felt was a national disgrace.

4. The "Washington Post" reports that your laboratories in Wuhan have been researching corona viruses in bats, butwithout maintaining the highest safety standards. Why are your toxic laboratories not as secure as your prisons for political prisoners?

Would you like to explain this to the grieving widows, daughters, sons, husbands, parents of Corona victims all over the world?

5. In your country, your people are whispering about you. Your power is crumbling. You have created an inscrutable, non-transparent China. Before Corona, China was known as a surveillance state. Now, China is known as a surveillance state that infected the world with a deadly disease.

That is your political legacy.

Your embassy tells me that I am not living up to the "traditional friendship of our peoples.” I suppose you consider it a great "friendship" when you now generously send masks around the world. This isn’t friendship, I would call it imperialism hidden behind a smile – a Trojan Horse.

You plan to strengthen China through a plague that you exported. You will not succeed. Corona will be your political end, sooner or later.

Yours sincerely

Julian Reichert


Less than temperate as I gather was the Chinese response. Choppy waters ahead.

So Bild is the German equivalent of the Sunday Sport?

That letter will not even be taken seriously by a regional German councillor, nevermind China.

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

So,.. if i bother to address points within the letter, are you going to actually argue them? Or is this just a post and release thingy?

China enriches itself with the inventions of others, instead of inventing on its own. The reason China does not innovate and invent is that you don't let the young people in your country think freely.

He might want to revisit that one.

JPCN1

Deleted User wrote: »

So,.. if i bother to address points within the letter, are you going to actually argue them? Or is this just a post and release thingy?

My point was the language and the upping of tensions. Bild is Germanys equivalent of The Sun and has one of the largest readerships worldwide.

Other than that I could care less what you do or don't do.

cryptocurrency

JPCN1 wrote: »

My point was the language and the upping of tensions. Bild is Germanys equivalent of The Sun and has one of the largest readerships worldwide.

Other than that I could care less what you do or don't do.

So you acknowledge that it is not a serious paper and doesn't remotely respresnt the voice of the german state.

So the paper that gave us Freddie Star ate my Hamster and runs Katie Price stories 6 days a week has a german equivalent and you've spent two days referencing it during a global pandemic.

Oooooooooooooook.

blinding

Why should we be Nice to the Totalitarian Communists when they are such sh!ts ? ?

cryptocurrency

cryptocurrency wrote: »

He might want to revisit that one.

Well, he's simply behind the times. The problem with Chinese society is that it needs to get past the heritage of Mao, and his cronies. That takes time.

In the time that I've been teaching in China, I've seen a lot of relaxation with regards to the students (considering that Universities are usually bastions of traditional thinking, and a powerbase for party members). There's more emphasis on critical thinking and analysis than there was a decade ago... plus every University has funds allocated to them for students who come up with great ideas for businesses. Admittedly, they need to pass a review board, but I've helped some students create startups funded by the Chinese government.

There's also the aspect that with the size of China's population, the demands on universities to modernise their equipment is rather costly. Giving students top quality facilities is going to be a struggle. You can see that with Ireland which has a tiny population in comparison. And similar with Ireland, older lecturers are there for life, and it's difficult to phase them out... so you get a lot of older lecturers with the old style of thinking. It's still a problem for them.. but the phasing out of those people is happening.

Lastly, it's culture... which connects with the first paragraph above. It'll take time for innovative thinking to become more common in China. Not only because of government oversight, which does exist, but because throughout their long history, the common person was not encouraged to be creative.

The author has a very narrow view of China, and doesn't try to understand the problems facing China in creating change. Instead, he focuses on the simplistic explanations because that's the stereotype. It's a shallow understanding of what happens there, and seeks to put everything through the filter of western understanding (which is based on western history, and culture), rather than appreciate that Chinese culture/people will change in a different direction than western nations.

JPCN1

JPCN1 wrote: »

My point was the language and the upping of tensions. Bild is Germanys equivalent of The Sun and has one of the largest readerships worldwide.

Other than that I could care less what you do or don't do.

So, it's simple a fire and release... you don't have any interest invested in the article.. so why post it here?

Maybe I should start posting Chinese articles talking about western ineptitude. Just put them up, and ignore any comments that people might make about them.

Nah. I don't get the logic of posting something, when you have no interest in peoples responses.

No. No. No need to respond. I could care less about your whole existence. :rolleyes:

blinding

blinding wrote: »

Why should we be Nice to the Totalitarian Communists when they are such sh!ts ? ?

Perhaps be nice to the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who aren't "Totalitarian Communists"?

More facilities to produce a vaccine would be the biggest reason, if you can be bothered to care about people dying versus your need to be nasty to "Totalitarian Communists"....

JPCN1

cryptocurrency wrote: »

So you acknowledge that it is not a serious paper and doesn't remotely respresnt the voice of the german state.

So the paper that gave us Freddie Star ate my Hamster and runs Katie Price stories 6 days a week has a german equivalent and you've spent two days referencing it during a global pandemic.

Oooooooooooooook.

The Sun probably did more for Brexit than any other paper. Stirring up people can have consequences. Maybe even in China.

BanditLuke

Definite ramping up of questioning of the brutal CCP regime the last 48hrs by the media which is very positive.

cryptocurrency

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps be nice to the hundreds of millions of Chinese people who aren't "Totalitarian Communists"?

More facilities to produce a vaccine would be the biggest reason, if you can be bothered to care about people dying versus your need to be nasty to "Totalitarian Communists"....

Wasting your time. The Chyna >> China>> Chinese>>>Chyna brigade are getting played by the media. They are getting obsessed on this like good sheep to make sure that they don't focus inwards.

I see since some hard questions are being asked both sides of the atlantic on the handling of the crisis they have allowed the rhetoric on China be ramped up. Text book stuff.

BanditLuke

CCP bots look rattled.

Interesting

Wibbs

BanditLuke wrote: »

Definite ramping up of questioning of the brutal CCP regime the last 48hrs by the media which is very positive.

Unless nations en masse or even locally stop buying Chinese goods and move manufacturing back home then it's like the small kid at school mumbling a rant about the big bully in the back seat of his mammy's car on the way home. The Chinese give two hoots about Deirdre on Facebook rating about dem Chinese on her Chinese made device, in her Chinese made clothes and shoes, sitting on her Chinese made couch.

cryptocurrency

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless nations en masse or even locally stop buying Chinese goods and move manufacturing back home then it's like the small kid at school mumbling a rant about the big bully in the back seat of his mammy's car on the way home. The Chinese give two hoots about Deirdre on Facebook rating about dem Chinese on her Chinese made device, in her Chinese made clothes and shoes, sitting on her Chinese made couch.

Careful, with logic like that you will be called a chinese bot by a butt hurt eejit.

BanditLuke

Wibbs wrote: »

Unless nations en masse or even locally stop buying Chinese goods and move manufacturing back home then it's like the small kid at school mumbling a rant about the big bully in the back seat of his mammy's car on the way home. The Chinese give two hoots about Deirdre on Facebook rating about dem Chinese on her Chinese made device, in her Chinese made clothes and shoes, sitting on her Chinese made couch.

Oh I agree 100%. It's up to every single one of us to make our own small effort.

I know I will and let's many others do.

cryptocurrency

BanditLuke wrote: »

Oh I agree 100%. It's up to every single one of us to make our own small effort.

I know I will and let's many others do.

You'll do nothing and make zero impact. Rip stuff apart, even check the components for the birth cert. Sigh.

Wibbs

BanditLuke wrote: »

Oh I agree 100%. It's up to every single one of us to make our own small effort.

I know I will and let's many others do.

I've been doing similar for years, but it won't make much of an impact unless western governments do the same and not buy stuff in large quantities from China. EG the British looking to ramp up their telecoms using Huawei gear. Unreal and beyond idiotic.

Thing is it's pretty much too late for the moment. All superpowers throughout history have controlled the narrative, the money and the manufacturing. The second they let that slip or outsourced one of those it was dead man walking. The west still holds the narrative, much of the money(though so many are in debt to China in some way. The US as an example), but were on sleeping pills when they outsourced their manufacturing base to China. Oh sure they've been outsourcing for donkey's years, the British empire did it, but they had control. Right up to the moment the locals went feck this. QV India.

They never had control over China in the first place, but foolishly thought that as soon as China had a nice middle class with picket fences and credit cards they'd start to think like Americans and want democracy. Even though Americans barely have that. Nope. China is an old soul, the oldest still extant empire on the planet and it held onto that with total self interest, many times to the point of shutting off from "outside" and an autocratic, bureaucratic and centralised power in the hands of a tiny number of men with the occasional woman. Why fcuk with the formula that's worked for two thousand years?

bob mcbob

Wibbs wrote: »

I've been doing similar for years, but it won't make much of an impact unless western governments do the same and not buy stuff in large quantities from China. EG the British looking to ramp up their telecoms using Huawei gear. Unreal and beyond idiotic.

Thing is it's pretty much too late for the moment. All superpowers throughout history have controlled the narrative, the money and the manufacturing. The second they let that slip or outsourced one of those it was dead man walking. The west still holds the narrative, much of the money(though so many are in debt to China in some way. The US as an example), but were on sleeping pills when they outsourced their manufacturing base to China. Oh sure they've been outsourcing for donkey's years, the British empire did it, but they had control. Right up to the moment the locals went feck this. QV India.

They never had control over China in the first place, but foolishly thought that as soon as China had a nice middle class with picket fences and credit cards they'd start to think like Americans and want democracy. Even though Americans barely have that. Nope. China is an old soul, the oldest still extant empire on the planet and it held onto that with total self interest, many times to the point of shutting off from "outside" and an autocratic, bureaucratic and centralised power in the hands of a tiny number of men with the occasional woman. Why fcuk with the formula that's worked for two thousand years?

Oh I think after this there will be a drastic review of the relationship of both the definition of what is strategically important for the West and also a review of the relationship between China and the West. Neither of these will go well for China.

Ultimately companies will be "encouraged" to bring manufacturing back to the West.

BanditLuke

BanditLuke wrote: »

CCP bots look rattled.

Interesting

If you're referring to the posters here who have consistently disagreed with your points, and those of your cliche, then, no... they're/we're not.. :rolleyes:

It's actually quite amusing just how basic and shallow the accusations being leveled at China are. For all the criticisms about China not being good at innovation, the critical thinking and use of logic by those complaining about China on this thread, is pretty damn low.

I've had, perhaps, three posters (you're not one of them) who have made me stop and think about their posts because they were well organised, very well thought out, and realistic. Alas, the majority of posters, like yourself, aren't offering any kind of challenge. Instead, it's childish comments like the above. Yay! Hopefully you're not representative of this generation of Westerners.. (for all our sakes):p

bob mcbob

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're referring to the posters here who have consistently disagreed with your points, and those of your cliche, then, no... they're/we're not.. :rolleyes:

It's actually quite amusing just how basic and shallow the accusations being leveled at China are. For all the criticisms about China not being good at innovation, the critical thinking and use of logic by those complaining about China on this thread, is pretty damn low.

I've had, perhaps, three posters (you're not one of them) who have made me stop and think about their posts because they were well organised, very well thought out, and realistic. Alas, the majority of posters, like yourself, aren't offering any kind of challenge. Instead, it's childish comments like the above. Yay! Hopefully you're not representative of the this generation of Westerners..

I have a question for you - you are in China at the moment so that means that the local time for you right now is 03.40.

How many nights in the last week have you spent the entire night awake posting your pro-CCP BS on this thread?

bob mcbob

bob mcbob wrote: »

Oh I think after this there will be a drastic review of the relationship of both the definition of what is strategically important for the West and also a review of the relationship between China and the West. Neither of these will go well for China.

You brought this up earlier. Strategically important. It's an incredibly vague thing to say. Can you be more specific? (And no, avoid military hardware since China doesn't do that for any western nation)

Ultimately companies will be "encouraged" to bring manufacturing back to the West.

Trump was trying that long before the virus happened. Make America great again... Remember when he was talking about American companies based in Ireland, and that they should return to the States? I think you'll find that if you start targeting China for foreign companies to pull out, Ireland (and other small nations) are going to get hurt too when American companies pull out.

If Trump manages to get political support behind him along with financial aid for companies to return to the US, they'll leave Europe. Ireland is already quite expensive in terms of the cost of employees, so any kind of tax breaks would take away the advantages that Ireland provides. Especially, if there is domestic pressure on American companies to return to the US.

I really wish people would consider the consequences of these kind of initiatives. Pushing for companies to pull out of China won't affect just China.. they'll affect any country recipient of foreign investment by private firms.