The Chinese Big Lie

cryptocurrency

bob mcbob wrote: »

Why not check the unemployment rates in some European countries and that is before the CCP unleashed Covid on it.

If we are bringing up isolationism, let's get back to China.

https://mspoweruser.com/china-replace-windows-pcs/

Yeah they have some OS which I've not used..that has been pushed a while. Logical, the EU should have their own too

cryptocurrency

bob mcbob wrote: »

Well we are soon going to find out.

Nope

Wibbs

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Czech have been much more exposed then compared to Slovakia and performed badly compared to Mongolia.

Mongolia is one of the least populated countries on the planet. Low population density mitigates contagion, even if you do nada. One reason why Ireland's death rate is too damned high, when it should be significantly lower. The Czech rep has over twice the tourist footfall compared to us, over twice the population and much higher population densities than us and most certainly Mongolia. They've also done far more testing and contact tracking than either. And instigated border controls and quarantine. And they're a landlocked nation in central Europe. And they had a shaky start before they went sod this and went into action. Last week they had two days without any fatalities in the country.

Now I realise your heartfelt angle is west useless and decadent, other places better, but denying the Czechs have got on top of this bloody well, even if they are the exemplary outlier, is beyond daft.

cryptocurrency

Wibbs wrote: »

Mongolia is one of the least populated countries on the planet. Low population density mitigates contagion, even if you do nada. One reason why Ireland's death rate is too damned high, when it should be significantly lower. The Czech rep has over twice the tourist footfall compared to us, over twice the population and much higher population densities than us and most certainly Mongolia. They've also done far more testing and contact tracking than either. And instigated border controls and quarantine. And they're a landlocked nation in central Europe. And they had a shaky start before they went sod this and went into action. Last week they had two days without any fatalities in the country.

Now I realise your heartfelt angle is west useless and decadent, other places better, but denying the Czechs have got on top of this bloody well, even if they are the exemplary outlier, is beyond daft.

They have but the Czechs is a different beast to Slovakia

cryptocurrency

Watching the BBC Hardtalk show now where they interview a British senior member of the WHO and it's clear what is going on. These are desperate swings of countries desperate to deflect blame from their own incompetence. Worth a watch.

blinding

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Watching the BBC Hardtalk show now where they interview a British senior member of the WHO and it's clear what is going on. These are desperate swings of countries desperate to deflect blame from their own incompetence. Worth a watch.

Lefty News Channel does not want to find out anything bad about the dodgy ties between the Chinese Communist Party and the WHO ; “ Shocker “

The BBC is not a fair and impartial News Channel. It is full of Lefties with their Lefty agendas ! !

MadYaker

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Contain, how? The rest of the world watched it for months and no western nation has been able to contain it with months head start and countless more information.

How?

Do exactly what they did in Wuhan only 6 weeks earlier after the first few cases. Would’ve thought that was obvious to be honest. Their lockdown was very impressive it was just far too late.

And don’t try and tell me they didn’t know what they were dealing with because Taiwan knew in January and WHO and China essentially tried to silence them.

maninasia

cryptocurrency wrote: »

If the Daily Mail's timeline is correct then that is a very tight timeframe. We know by the start of January China had been engaged internationally with the science community for a few of weeks. According to UK advisors.


The virus was brand new and it is entirely logical that in a city of 11 million that by December 15th the 27 cases of people presenting with a pneumonia-like illness were still being treated locally as having pneumonia. I don't see where this Bruce Willis moment to save the day was gonna happen. I don't see where this window is where people are claiming they world could have been saved if only the westetn world was told.

Now, moving on to the 31st of December and through to the 11 of January when the genome was circulated globally I still don't see this moment where the world could be saved and by whom. It was clear they still didn't know what it was and how contagious it was. The big banquet in Wuhan on the 19th shows that.

Now, with all this info being global, for at least a few weeks now, why was European leaders still sitting around like chimps trying to fit the square piece through the tiangle hole in mid march.

I am still failing to see where the lost window that the west would save the world and it would have been nipped in the bud where it started.

Seems this virus was coming if we liked it or not and the more of these timelines that are produced the more clear it is.

The lost window was in early January , you can see it in the timeline. When they were busy threatening docs with prosecution and claiming no human transmission to the world . Every day counts with an epidemic, especially one yet to becone a global pandemic. There may have been a few seeding events overseas but many countries could have gotten on top of it.

blinding

MadYaker wrote: »

Do exactly what they did in Wuhan only 6 weeks earlier after the first few cases. Would’ve thought that was obvious to be honest. Their lockdown was very impressive it was just far too late.

And don’t try and tell me they didn’t know what they were dealing with because Taiwan knew in January and WHO and China essentially tried to silence them.

The WHO, basically trying to pretend Taiwan did not exist was a sickening site.

Especially when Taiwan was trying to warn the WHO and the World about what was coming.

The WHO needs a complete clear out after this if not before ! !

maninasia

blinding wrote: »

The WHO, basically trying to pretend Taiwan did not exist was a sickening site.

Especially when Taiwan was trying to warn the WHO and the World about what was coming.

The WHO needs a complete clear out after this if not before ! !

WHO = FAIL

blinding

maninasia wrote: »

WHO = FAIL

How can an Organisation like the WHO be allowed to fall under such Influence from the Chinese Communist Party ? ?

This has turned out to be a disaster for the World ! !

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Do exactly what they did in Wuhan only 6 weeks earlier after the first few cases.

Except that the true danger of the virus wasn't known 6 weeks earlier. You're all pushing an awareness based on hindsight. At the time of the virus emerging in Wuhan, very little was known about the virus itself. It was originally believed to be a stronger strain of the flu or pneumonia, which the region usually suffered through at that time of the year.

Hindsight is such a wonderful thing. Especially when you ignore it to argue points of responsibility.

Would’ve thought that was obvious to be honest. Their lockdown was very impressive it was just far too late.

All the lockdowns across Asia are intended to slow the spread of the virus. Not to stop the spread, because there is currently no known method of stopping the virus completely.

The point that people seem to want to ignore is that preventing the virus from spreading is next to impossible without shutting down all transport links. And I mean all links. No nation to date has done so within weeks of being told about the virus. In each case, governments downplayed the risks of the virus, and talked about what measures were to be taken, but nothing was done to stop the spread. Not just in the West, but worldwide. The only cases of countries immediately responding are those countries who received infected cases much later than others, and had the time to examine the evidence collected by other nations from their own problems. nd even then, the purpose was not to stop the spread to other countries, but to limit the spread within their own country.

China wasn't capable of stopping the spread of the virus to other countries because the virus was undetectable. In many cases, infected carriers were not showing symptoms, and testing of people wouldn't show a person being infected, due to the time needed to process the results. In fact, China was the first country to start testing people through the use of checking temperatures, but that's still a very inaccurate way to check people. All the same, they were the first, and western airports didn't follow suit until a month afterwards.

All this talk about China needing to stop the spread ignores the fact that no country at that time, or later, has implemented the measures needed to halt the spread. Even after Italy, European countries still had open borders, and flights heading across Europe, and into the US or other countries worldwide.

And don’t try and tell me they didn’t know what they were dealing with because Taiwan knew in January and WHO and China essentially tried to silence them.

Taiwan knew that a contagious disease was around. They didn't know any specifics, which is why they queried the WHO. They found out about the virus by watching Chinese media and reports from Taiwanese people traveling from China. Other countries have intelligence services who would have been monitoring China, as would market analysis companies who monitor Chinese social media to determine market changes. The fact that nobody else raised the alarm, reinforces how little was known about the virus and just how dangerous it was.

They didn't know what they were dealing with because the virus was new. The strain of this coronavirus hadn't been tested, and examined yet. It took time for all of those things to kick into gear.

You're removing the importance and impact of hindsight. Back in January, genuine knowledge about the virus was extremely limited. Lots of rumors, but little hard evidence. You're basing what should have happened, on the information that is known today... knowledge that has been collected in almost three months... and even now, there are large gaps in our knowledge about transmission, and other factors which would affect any genuine attempts to contain the virus with the purpose of preventing it's spread outside of a nations borders.

I'm not going to try to tell you anything... because you can be reasonable or not. That's your choice. You can have unrealistic expectations that China should have stopped the spread, but they are unrealistic because no other nation has managed it, while having greater knowledge about how the virus operates and how it's detected, than China did at that time.

MadYaker

You have no idea what knowledge the Chinese did or didn’t have. The Taiwanese and the South Koreans knew what this was the second they saw it because they dealt with H1N1 and swine flu just like the Chinese did. Taiwan even tried to raise the alarm and China did their best to silence them. China has some of the best scientists in the world it would be extremely naive of anyone to assume this wasn’t a coverup, it absolutely was and we’re all paying the price for it.

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

The lost window was in early January , you can see it in the timeline. When they were busy threatening docs with prosecution and claiming no human transmission to the world . Every day counts with an epidemic, especially one yet to becone a global pandemic. There may have been a few seeding events overseas but many countries could have gotten on top of it.

Except that the facts show that no country did initially get on top of it.

We had Italy as an alarm for Europe, and what happened? Yup. Very little. School tours were allowed to return without being tested, sports camps in Italy only returned when tested positive, and Irish people still went to the races. And that attitude is reflected all across Europe, and the US.

In the whole time I have been back from China, I haven't received any queries from the Irish government, nor any requests that I be tested. None of the Irish or other European expats I know returning from China, received any such queries either. That includes people who returned in February.. No followup. No investigation of people coming from China. Nothing.

They could have gotten on top of it.. how? When carriers can move about without showing symptoms, and even with symptoms, there are differences in what infected people experience. Everyone infected is not experiencing the same signs. No testing procedures that provide results within a short time frame. So.. how could they have gotten on top of it?

With hindsight, we can say that they should have closed down all air, land and sea travel immediately.. with returning people put into quarantine for two weeks while they're tested extensively. We know these things now. We didn't know them before. But then, selective hindsight is terribly useful in these situations when you want to cast blame elsewhere.

I'm finding this attitude that something more could have been done a little bemusing.... because nowhere do we have a case to refer to, as being the right way to respond. We don't have any countries that immediately reacted and shut down all transport in and out of their country.

So... avoiding the use of hindsight, and using only the information we knew at the time of the emerging virus threat, what could have countries done to stop the spread into and out of their countries? [Apart from shutting all transport access, since not one country actually did that immediately on receiving word of the virus.]

MadYaker

I have to ask Klaz if you think the Chinese are being honest in this tweet. Keep in mind they likely had their first cases in november: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-disease-outbreak-in-china-in-november-report/

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152

MadYaker

There is absoletely no way that was the case in January. The Tiawanese knew at that point there was h2h transmission occuring.

Kermit.de.frog

It's thought the first transition from animal to human happened at some point around the middle of November (assuming it didn't escape the Wuhan lab). Given how contagious it is it must have been spreading through December.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

You have no idea what knowledge the Chinese did or didn’t have.

True enough. Oddly enough, neither do you. Hasn't stopped you from suggesting otherwise though, has it?

The Taiwanese and the South Koreans knew what this was the second they saw it because they dealt with H1N1 and swine flu just like the Chinese did.

Rubbish. I've seen the email too that Taiwan sent to the WHO. I've read the news reports about the queries that Taiwan raised about the virus. They didn't know much beyond that it was contagious, and that there was a high risk involved. As for S.Korea, they responded to the virus well after Taiwan.

Taiwan even tried to raise the alarm and China did their best to silence them.

You're repeating yourself. I read your posts. I've read others posts. This has been said repeatedly throughout the thread, and I haven't argued against it, because I know how the CCP operates.

China has some of the best scientists in the world it would be extremely naive of anyone to assume this wasn’t a coverup, it absolutely was and we’re all paying the price for it.

I love how China is the worst for science/innovation and needs to steal IPs but when it suits, then China has some of the best scientists in the world. Just love how the narrative changes to suit the message.

The CCP aren't that inept. If they had truly wanted a coverup, then we wouldn't have found out until much later, likely sometime early in February. They could have locked down Wuhan, shut off all communications, and blocked any access to the area. They could have prevented anyone from knowing about Wuhan and also prevented anyone from posting to social media. The internet in China, can be shut down by the government... just as they could shut down all the apps within that particular district, had they wanted to. They have that power.

There wasn't a coverup. There was the usual CCP reluctance to reveal information to western nations, believing that this was an internal affair and something they could resolve themselves. They were wrong. Just as many western nations have been wrong about the seriousness of the virus.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

I have to ask Klaz if you think the Chinese are being honest in this tweet.

I have said many times, that I don't think the CCP is ever honest with Western media or western governments.

Keep in mind they likely had their first cases in november:

Ahh well, there we disagree. They likely had another different strain of this virus in November, if it was detected at all as a coronavirus. Personally, I believe it wasn't identified as something worse than the standard flu bug, until the end of December. Which got the wheels moving, and after weeks of testing, they knew they had a coronavirus towards the beginning (end of the first week) of January. Before the beginning of January, they had theories, not anything concrete about the virus strain itself.

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

There wasn't a coverup. There was the usual CCP reluctance to reveal information to western nations, believing that this was an internal affair and something they could resolve themselves. They were wrong. Just as many western nations have been wrong about the seriousness of the virus.

Anyone who mentioned the virus in a medical capacity through January in Wuhan were actively suppressed and prevented from doing so.

You should watch this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE

MadYaker

Deleted User wrote: »

There wasn't a coverup. There was the usual CCP reluctance to reveal information to western nations, believing that this was an internal affair and something they could resolve themselves. They were wrong. Just as many western nations have been wrong about the seriousness of the virus.

You say there wasn't a coverup and then go on to describe a coverup. You accept that they lied to the WHO yet its not a coverup. They gag doctors who try to raise the alarm and put them under house arrest, but its not a coverup.....

You can disregard the reports from US intellegence if you want but that story has been run by pretty much every reputable news source. These are the facts we have.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone who mentioned the virus in a medical capacity through January in Wuhan were actively suppressed and prevented from doing so.

You should watch this...

I've seen similar. Once word got out, they did their usual thing of censoring information. I don't see it as a coverup. Their efforts were mostly internal.

They could have been more open and transparent but that would have meant changing their normal behavior. I don't see any big conspiracy here. I see the normal behavior of the CCP with regards to damage control, and controlling the flow of info within China.

MadYaker

I think you've been living there too long you've forgotten what freedom is :pac: when I watched my mate pay for stuff in the supermarket by looking into a camera with his face I knew I never wanted to live under that level of surveillance.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

You say there wasn't a coverup and then go on to describe a coverup. You accept that they lied to the WHO yet its not a coverup. They gag doctors who try to raise the alarm and put them under house arrest, but its not a coverup.....

You can disregard the reports from US intellegence if you want but that story has been run by pretty much every reputable news source. These are the facts we have.

nope. I don't buy it. It's okay. we haven't agreed on very much throughout the thread.

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

Do exactly what they did in Wuhan only 6 weeks earlier after the first few cases. Would’ve thought that was obvious to be honest. Their lockdown was very impressive it was just far too late.

And don’t try and tell me they didn’t know what they were dealing with because Taiwan knew in January and WHO and China essentially tried to silence them.

After a few cases of a virus that looked pneumonia...you are beyond stupid on this one.

Imagine if the US were so ahead of the game before they pumped the world full of Aids when they "didn't know"....same thing as now but much bigger numbers

MadYaker

I was surprised when they posthumously exonerated said doctor though. I think they even issued an apology! Maybe that plus the upward revision of the death toll is a sign of more transparency to come.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

I think you've been living there too long you've forgotten what freedom is :pac: when I watched my mate pay for stuff in the supermarket by looking into a camera with his face I knew I never wanted to live under that level of surveillance.

I know what freedom is.. and you're fooling yourself if you believe you aren't being monitored by all manner of agencies. Whether they be State or private. Credit cards, debit cards, phone usage, internet surfing etc.

I find freedom to be one of those great illusions. It's there until the government, the law, or someone with a "valid" excuse comes to take it away from you.

MadYaker

Does the fact that the most widely used social network in the country is owned and controlled by gov not bother you no? You can't live there without wechat and thats not by accident. Were off topic here anyway and I need to go to bed!"

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Does the fact that the most widely used social network in the country is owned and controlled by gov not bother you no? You can't live there without wechat and thats not by accident. Were off topic here anyway and I need to go to bed!"

Nope. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't break any laws. I live a reasonably quiet life in China, and there's few situations where I might be put in a compromising position.

In those cases, I have my Mandarin ability, an awareness of Chinese culture, and my own connections with influential people. but then, in over a decade, I've had only a few problem experiences, and I've easily managed to resolve them.

So, no. I'm not bothered at all, and in many ways, I feel more free over there than I do here in Ireland. Ireland has regulations, laws, and rules governing many aspects of daily life. China has them too, but they're not enforced as much. I suspect you'd need to live in China a while to understand what I mean by it, since I didn't notice the difference until I lived in China.

Lastly, you can live there without Wechat. It's just more convenient to have it. I know a number of people who don't use wechat, or any Chinese software. Personally, I prefer the convenience.

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen similar. Once word got out, they did their usual thing of censoring information. I don't see it as a coverup. Their efforts were mostly internal.

They could have been more open and transparent but that would have meant changing their normal behavior. I don't see any big conspiracy here. I see the normal behavior of the CCP with regards to damage control, and controlling the flow of info within China.

And the destruction of samples in late December? That's not a cover up either I suppose.