The Chinese Big Lie

maninasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except that the facts show that no country did initially get on top of it.

We had Italy as an alarm for Europe, and what happened? Yup. Very little. School tours were allowed to return without being tested, sports camps in Italy only returned when tested positive, and Irish people still went to the races. And that attitude is reflected all across Europe, and the US.

In the whole time I have been back from China, I haven't received any queries from the Irish government, nor any requests that I be tested. None of the Irish or other European expats I know returning from China, received any such queries either. That includes people who returned in February.. No followup. No investigation of people coming from China. Nothing.

They could have gotten on top of it.. how? When carriers can move about without showing symptoms, and even with symptoms, there are differences in what infected people experience. Everyone infected is not experiencing the same signs. No testing procedures that provide results within a short time frame. So.. how could they have gotten on top of it?

With hindsight, we can say that they should have closed down all air, land and sea travel immediately.. with returning people put into quarantine for two weeks while they're tested extensively. We know these things now. We didn't know them before. But then, selective hindsight is terribly useful in these situations when you want to cast blame elsewhere.

I'm finding this attitude that something more could have been done a little bemusing.... because nowhere do we have a case to refer to, as being the right way to respond. We don't have any countries that immediately reacted and shut down all transport in and out of their country.

So... avoiding the use of hindsight, and using only the information we knew at the time of the emerging virus threat, what could have countries done to stop the spread into and out of their countries? [Apart from shutting all transport access, since not one country actually did that immediately on receiving word of the virus.]

Wrong,Taiwan got on top of it from the start ,NZ got on top of it,South Korea did too except for their crazy cult.

The other regions in China DID get on top of it because they knew how bad it was and of course China sealed odd Wuhan on Jan 21st .

The earlier notice of human to human transmission, the flier announcemebt of pandemic (the WHO is also complicit), the less spread would have occurred. More countries could have controlled it from the start or at least limit the number infected. Every day counts.

This is not to absolve poorly managed responses such as in Ireland, UK etc.

maninasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know what freedom is.. and you're fooling yourself if you believe you aren't being monitored by all manner of agencies. Whether they be State or private. Credit cards, debit cards, phone usage, internet surfing etc.

I find freedom to be one of those great illusions. It's there until the government, the law, or someone with a "valid" excuse comes to take it away from you.

No freedom is a real thing.
Post something critical of the government in China, 'down with the CCP' and see what happens.

Organize a new group with 'freedom ideals' there.

See what happens.

maninasia

MadYaker wrote: »

I was surprised when they posthumously exonerated said doctor though. I think they even issued an apology! Maybe that plus the upward revision of the death toll is a sign of more transparency to come.

Don't be. The central government can simply blame the local government and officials for that one. Then they can co op this doctor as a hero of China.

fiveleavesleft

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone who mentioned the virus in a medical capacity through January in Wuhan were actively suppressed and prevented from doing so.

You should watch this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE

:rolleyes: that's a terrible programme Kermit. It's full of mistakes & lies. Now granted it's a pretty thrashy take on the crisis & has an angle to push (which is fine) but we shouldn't take guff like that serious.

Kermit.de.frog

What are the mistakes and lies?

Are you one of the Trumpers who does not trust main stream media?

fiveleavesleft

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What are the mistakes and lies?

Are you one of the Trumpers who does not trust main stream media?

Not at all but that is a silly show.

They get loads of stuff wrong like claiming the WHO was only informed on January 7 when we know they were informed on December 31 or the bit where they claim China was maintaining they only had 40 cases in late January even though in the first week of the new year they admitted they had near 60 cases.

The stuff about the missing doctor is amazing, they just made that up!:D

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

No freedom is a real thing.
Post something critical of the government in China, 'down with the CCP' and see what happens.

Organize a new group with 'freedom ideals' there.

See what happens.

Ahh yes. Freedom to be stupid. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

I knew what China was like before I started living there. I'd already traveled there over a dozen times due to other work, so I wasn't arriving without knowledge of the place. I had the freedom to choose where to live.. and what would come out of it. So, nah... no interest in proving any degree of freedom to be a moron.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And the destruction of samples in late December? That's not a cover up either I suppose.

As I said, I don't believe the CCP to be as inept as you seem to think they are.

maninasia wrote: »

Wrong,Taiwan got on top of it from the start ,NZ got on top of it,South Korea did too except for their crazy cult.

The other regions in China DID get on top of it because they knew how bad it was and of course China sealed odd Wuhan on Jan 21st .

Wuhan was locked down on January 23rd, not the 21st. The first set of measures were being implemented around the 21st but not a lockdown scenario.

And as I said earlier, the aim was containment by preventing new cases arriving, and the spread within any country, not preventing spread of the virus to other countries. (that includes what Taiwan, S.Korea etc did)... and I'm done with arguing the timeline since it's been done to death on this thread... people seem to have very different ideas of when measures were implemented.

The earlier notice of human to human transmission, the flier announcemebt of pandemic (the WHO is also complicit), the less spread would have occurred. More countries could have controlled it from the start or at least limit the number infected. Every day counts.

This is not to absolve poorly managed responses such as in Ireland, UK etc.

Another vague comment. How?

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Are you one of the Trumpers who does not trust main stream media?

Err... you could believe mainstream media to be untrustworthy before Trump appeared at all. Many people lost faith in the media, after the invasion of Iraq, or the handling of gender rights issues.

For the most part, I couldn't care less what Trump says or does. I'm not a supporter of his, even slightly. However, I do not trust mainstream media sources. They're businesses and definitely follow their own agendas.

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

I have to ask Klaz if you think the Chinese are being honest in this tweet. Keep in mind they likely had their first cases in november: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-disease-outbreak-in-china-in-november-report/

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152

No clear evidence. WHO is a science based organisation.

They recently said there is no clear evidence that you are immune once you have had it. If it turns out that people are then are you going to have another fit over that statement?

Why doesn't the EU and US know all these answers now? Remember if they were contacted 3 days before they were they would have blasted the virus out of the park never to be seen again,. They weren't. You they are all sitting on the floor trying to put the square block into the triangle hole.

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

I was surprised when they posthumously exonerated said doctor though. I think they even issued an apology! Maybe that plus the upward revision of the death toll is a sign of more transparency to come.

Which doctor? The eye doctor?

FVP3

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And the destruction of samples in late December? That's not a cover up either I suppose.

The what now, is that some new "truth" produced by the American conspiratorial media.

China informed the WHO on December 31st about the virus and

I notice the Western media has stopped talking about when China told the WHO, and moved onto when it admitted it was "human transmittable".

Here's the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control

On 31 December 2019, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission in Wuhan City, Hubei province, China, reported a cluster of 27 pneumonia cases (including seven severe cases) of unknown aetiology, with a common reported link to Wuhan's Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a wholesale fish and live animal market [1].

The market was closed down on 1 January 2020. According to the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission, samples from the market tested positive for novel coronavirus. Cases showed symptoms such as fever, dry cough, dyspnoea; radiological findings showed bilateral lung infiltrates [2].

On 9 January 2020, the China CDC reported that a novel coronavirus (later named SARS-CoV-2, the virus causing COVID-19) had been detected as the causative agent for 15 of the 59 cases of pneumonia [3]. On 10 January 2020, the first novel coronavirus genome sequence was made publicly available [4]. The sequence was deposited in the GenBank database (accession number MN908947) and uploaded to the Global Initiative on Sharing All Influenza Data (GISAID). A preliminary analysis showed that the novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) clusters with the SARS-related CoV clade and differs from the core genome of known bat CoVs.

By 20 January 2020, there were reports of confirmed cases from three countries outside China: Thailand, Japan and South Korea [5]. These cases had all been exported from China.

On 23 January 2020, Wuhan City was locked down – with all travel in and out of Wuhan prohibited – and movement inside the city was restricted [6].

The whole "admitting it was human transmittable" is a red herring, they probably were waiting for conclusive evidence. As for the destruction of samples. bit odd to do that when 9 days later you upload the genome.

FVP3

MadYaker wrote: »

I think you've been living there too long you've forgotten what freedom is :pac: when I watched my mate pay for stuff in the supermarket by looking into a camera with his face I knew I never wanted to live under that level of surveillance.

You are literally pretty much locked in your house right now. China's level of surveillance is not all that relevant to this story though, its like talking about the US level of incarceration (7 times higher than China) when discussing the causes of the sub prime mortgage fiasco, which started in the US.

FVP3

MadYaker wrote: »

I have to ask Klaz if you think the Chinese are being honest in this tweet. Keep in mind they likely had their first cases in november: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-disease-outbreak-in-china-in-november-report/

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152

No clear evidence is a scientific term. At that stage it probably wasn't clear. If the outbreak happened in November, tens of thousands would be infected. So it didnt originate in november.

All of this is deflection from the US, and the West in general, but the US in particular. Long after the facts came out, a month or more after Wuhan is closed down, FOx News is calling the whole thing a hoax.

cryptocurrency

FVP3 wrote: »

The what now, is that some new "truth" produced by the American conspiratorial media.

China informed the WHO on December 31st about the virus and

I notice the Western media has stopped talking about when China told the WHO, and moved onto when it admitted it was "human transmittable".

Here's the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control

On 31 December 2019, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission in Wuhan City, Hubei province, China, reported a cluster of 27 pneumonia cases (including seven severe cases) of unknown aetiology, with a common reported link to Wuhan's Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, a wholesale fish and live animal market [1].

The market was closed down on 1 January 2020. According to the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission, samples from the market tested positive for novel coronavirus. Cases showed symptoms such as fever, dry cough, dyspnoea; radiological findings showed bilateral lung infiltrates [2].

On 9 January 2020, the China CDC reported that a novel coronavirus (later named SARS-CoV-2, the virus causing COVID-19) had been detected as the causative agent for 15 of the 59 cases of pneumonia [3]. On 10 January 2020, the first novel coronavirus genome sequence was made publicly available [4]. The sequence was deposited in the GenBank database (accession number MN908947) and uploaded to the Global Initiative on Sharing All Influenza Data (GISAID). A preliminary analysis showed that the novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) clusters with the SARS-related CoV clade and differs from the core genome of known bat CoVs.

By 20 January 2020, there were reports of confirmed cases from three countries outside China: Thailand, Japan and South Korea [5]. These cases had all been exported from China.

On 23 January 2020, Wuhan City was locked down – with all travel in and out of Wuhan prohibited – and movement inside the city was restricted [6].

The whole "admitting it was human transmittable" is a red herring, they probably were waiting for conclusive evidence. As for the destruction of samples. bit odd to do that when 9 days later you upload the genome.

Let's face it, those who are trying to porject the blame based on their nonsense timeframe are actually nuts, stupid beyond words and probably closet racists which fuels them into their echo chambers and rabbit holes.

cryptocurrency

FVP3 wrote: »

China informed the WHO on December 31st about the virus

The whole "admitting it was human transmittable" is a red herring, they probably were waiting for conclusive evidence. As for the destruction of samples. bit odd to do that when 9 days later you upload the genome.

You do know what would have happened if they Chinese had a crystal ball and told the world everything we know now on the 31st, including human to human transmission was confirmed.


https://ibb.co/HndZgB9

Captcha

FVP3 wrote: »

You are literally pretty much locked in your house right now. China's level of surveillance is not all that relevant to this story though, its like talking about the US level of incarceration (7 times higher than China) when discussing the causes of the sub prime mortgage fiasco, which started in the US.

Haha if you believe CCP figures.... Did they count those millions of Uigher Muslims?

No reputable source in the world even takes CCP GDP as anywhere near accurate either.

cryptocurrency

Did millions of them die? What are you saying?

cryptocurrency

Double post.

MadYaker

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No clear evidence. WHO is a science based organisation.

They recently said there is no clear evidence that you are immune once you have had it. If it turns out that people are then are you going to have another fit over that statement?

Why doesn't the EU and US know all these answers now? Remember if they were contacted 3 days before they were they would have blasted the virus out of the park never to be seen again,. They weren't. You they are all sitting on the floor trying to put the square block into the triangle hole.

It’s a discussion nobody is having fits. Look if you want to continue to believe the Chinese lies that’s your business. It’s clear that all the evidence in the world won’t change your mind. There’s a word for that.

If you honestly believe that the Chinese still thought there was no h2h transmission on jan 14th (more than a month after their first cases) then you’ll believe literally anything they say.

I posted about the doctor they silenced and you didn’t even know what I was talking about ffs.

MadYaker

FVP3 wrote: »

No clear evidence is a scientific term. At that stage it probably wasn't clear. If the outbreak happened in November, tens of thousands would be infected. So it didnt originate in november.

All of this is deflection from the US, and the West in general, but the US in particular. Long after the facts came out, a month or more after Wuhan is closed down, FOx News is calling the whole thing a hoax.

So you believe them? Ok. All the evidence points to them lying but if you want to believe lies that’s fine.

Those reports about US intelligence knowing about an outbreak in Wuhan in November have been carried by every reputable news source in the world, but of course you know better. Jokes.

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

It’s a discussion nobody is having fits. Look if you want to continue to believe the Chinese lies that’s your business. It’s clear that all the evidence in the world won’t change your mind. There’s a word for that.

If you honestly believe that the Chinese still thought there was no h2h transmission on jan 14th (more than a month after their first cases) then you’ll believe literally anything they say.

I posted about the doctor they silenced and you didn’t even know what I was talking about ffs.

You've presented no evidence. If there was some it would be news. You presented wild specualtion as evidence. WHO stated there was conclusive evidence at that stage. about human to human trasnmission. They are saying now there is no conclusive evidence that you are immune once you have it.

You mean the eye doc? the doc who locked after peoples eyes?

MadYaker

That post doesn’t even make sense to be honest

maninasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh yes. Freedom to be stupid. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

I knew what China was like before I started living there. I'd already traveled there over a dozen times due to other work, so I wasn't arriving without knowledge of the place. I had the freedom to choose where to live.. and what would come out of it. So, nah... no interest in proving any degree of freedom to be a moron.

It's seem you are a bit on the spectrum...🙄

I live in Asia practically forever...Chinese government is not only a threat to its own people's freedom but other countries as well especially in Asia, a serious and real threat as they spread their tentacles everywhere.

cryptocurrency

maninasia wrote: »

It's seem you are a bit on the spectrum...��

I live in Asia practically forever...Chinese government is not only a threat to its own people's freedom but other countries as well especially in Asia, a serious and real threat as they spread their tentacles everywhere.

Are you in Thailand? What has you in Thailand, what brought you to Thailand? The Temples?

Humilde

My hunch is that this was an accident in their lab in Wuhan. Id hope that they wouldn't deliberately release this. To try to save face, they tried to hide it but once they realised it was spiralling out of control, they decided to let out the information. If this was some ordinary virus from animals, they would have had nothing to hide. That's what makes it look really like they've been playing the rest of the world here.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

I know what freedom is.. and you're fooling yourself if you believe you aren't being monitored by all manner of agencies. Whether they be State or private. Credit cards, debit cards, phone usage, internet surfing etc.

I find freedom to be one of those great illusions. It's there until the government, the law, or someone with a "valid" excuse comes to take it away from you.

You're equating freedom with being surveilled.

In Ireland, one is free to criticize their leaders and replace them.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to follow whatever ideology or religion they so choose.
In China, one is not.

In ireland, one is free not to be murdered for their organs.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to reap the benefits of creating something; innovating.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to declare a new virus is coming without being reprimanded.
In China, one is not.

You have argued countless times how these things also occur in the west klaz, but occuring is not the same as being state sponsored. There is a big differrence.

Deleted User wrote: »

What China is doing is closer to self-sufficiency for technology, since they believe the US government is doing the same as the Chinese do. ie. spyware within technological devices. That's not isolationalism.

This is a warped understanding of things. China backwards engineer and steal technology on a government level. The US government gets replaced every now and again. China are no nearer to being self-sufficient in innovation than I am of becoming a mermaid. Their society does not reward innovation. The only rich people there are ones that copied other services. (alibaba weibo etc..)

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't break any laws. I live a reasonably quiet life in China, and there's few situations where I might be put in a compromising position.

This is good pragmatic advice for people looking to travel to China. I don't dispute this. It is however not the absolute reality of the situation.
Does it matter at all that this sentence can be said of North Korea? How other people around you are being treated? Foreigners definitely aren't as in much danger in China, it hates the PR it brings.
I've asked this question of you now a few times, your answer wasn't very illuminating.

maninasia

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Are you in Thailand? What has you in Thailand, what brought you to Thailand? The Temples?

No I'm not. Try again lol.
Even if I was Thailand is a good spot . A lot nicer than China anyway.

cryptocurrency

Humilde wrote: »

My hunch is that this was an accident in their lab in Wuhan. Id hope that they wouldn't deliberately release this. To try to save face, they tried to hide it but once they realised it was spiralling out of control, they decided to let out the information. If this was some ordinary virus from animals, they would have had nothing to hide. That's what makes it look really like they've been playing the rest of the world here.

If it was struck down from the heavens for all to see they still would have been blamed

maninasia

Humilde wrote: »

My hunch is that this was an accident in their lab in Wuhan. Id hope that they wouldn't deliberately release this. To try to save face, they tried to hide it but once they realised it was spiralling out of control, they decided to let out the information. If this was some ordinary virus from animals, they would have had nothing to hide. That's what makes it look really like they've been playing the rest of the world here.

All they have to do is allow an international team of impartial investigators (not the WHO) to look for the origin and check the two labs doing bat virus research there (one that is literally ADJACENT to the hospital with the first covid19 cluster ).

That lab is the Wuhan CDC (280 meters away from the seafood market ) and it is little mentioned because most people are only aware of The Wuhan Institute of Virology which is 12 km away from the seafood market.

They won't allow access to either though.

Humilde

2u2me wrote: »

You're equating freedom with being surveilled.

In Ireland, one is free to criticize their leaders and replace them.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to follow whatever ideology or religion they so choose.
In China, one is not.

In ireland, one is free not to be murdered for their organs.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to reap the benefits of creating something; innovating.
In China, one is not.

In Ireland, one is free to declare a new virus is coming without being reprimanded.
In China, one is not.

You have argued countless times how these things also occur in the west klaz, but occuring is not the same as being state sponsored. There is a big differrence.

This is a warped understanding of things. China backwards engineer and steal technology on a government level. The US government gets replaced every now and again. China are no nearer to being self-sufficient in innovation than I am of becoming a mermaid. Their society does not reward innovation. The only rich people there are ones that copied other services. (alibaba weibo etc..)


This is good pragmatic advice for people looking to travel to China. I don't dispute this. It is however not the absolute reality of the situation.
Does it matter at all that this sentence can be said of North Korea? How other people around you are being treated? Foreigners definitely aren't as in much danger in China, it hates the PR it brings.
I've asked this question of you now a few times, your answer wasn't very illuminating.

I understand that we are a long way from China in terms of freedoms. But some of your points are open to a lot of questions.

Like, in Ireland we are free to replace our leaders. I think we voted recently to replace them but it looks like those we wanted to replace are joining foreces to deny us our wish. Wholy legally of course, but it just shows that democracy is not the panacea we all think it is.

In Ireland, whistleblowers have not had such an easy ride either as we all know.

cryptocurrency

Humilde wrote: »

I understand that we are a long way from China in terms of freedoms. But some of your points are open to a lot of questions.

Like, in Ireland we are free to replace our leaders. I think we voted recently to replace them but it looks like those we wanted to replace are joining foreces to deny us our wish. Wholy legally of course, but it just shows that democracy is not the panacea we all think it is.

In Ireland, whistleblowers have not had such an easy ride either as we all know.

And we are in the EU, we have no say