The Chinese Big Lie

cryptocurrency

Can we add the big Russian lie to the title please.

UK media running stories that Putin is lying about the number of cases as it doesn't compute that a non western nation is not completely devestated by this.

cryptocurrency

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/23/vietnam-lifts-lockdown-country-97-million-bordering-china-recorded/

Vietnam has started to lift the strict movement and social distancing restrictions that still remain in many of its Southeast Asian nations, allowing daily life in major cities to slowly come back to normal.

No provinces in Vietnam are now seen as “highly prone” to the pandemic, Nguyen Xuan Phuc, the Prime Minister, announced on Wednesday, although some non-essential businesses will remain closed.

The Communist country of 95 million has been an under-reported success story of the pandemic, which has had just 268 coronavirus cases and no deaths.

Vietnam’s appalling human rights record worsened in 2018 as the government imprisoned dissidents for longer prison terms, sanctioned thugs to attack rights defenders, and passed draconian laws that further threaten freedom of expression.

The Communist Party of Vietnam monopolizes power through the government, controls all major political and social organizations, and punishes people who dare to criticize or challenge its rule.

Basic civil and political rights including freedom of expression, association, and peaceful public assembly are severely restricted. Independent media is not allowed as the government controls TV, radio, newspapers, and other publications. Vietnam prohibits the formation of independent labor unions, political associations, and human rights organizations. Police frequently use excessive force to disperse peaceful public protests that criticize the government.

Activists questioning government policies or projects, or seeking to defend local resources or land, face daily harassment, intrusive surveillance, house arrest, travel bans, arbitrary detention, and interrogation. Thugs, apparently collaborating with police, have increasingly launched physical attacks against activists with impunity.

Police subject dissidents to lengthy and bullying interrogations, and detain them incommunicado for months without access to family members or legal counsel. Communist Party-controlled courts receive instructions on how to rule in criminal cases, and have issued increasingly harsh prison sentences for activists convicted on bogus national security charges.

Vietnamese Communist Party in control of a country that has had zero deaths. Must be lying as their capital is about the same distance from Wuhan then Beijing and a lot closer then the likes of Harbin.

Are we allowed to apply the same logic here as we have on the CCP or is the CPV a fluffy version of the CCP or something?

Would we be caller CPV bots if we point out they clearly have a handle on this or is that also impossible?

Are this lot doing big lies?

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

For some people taking sugar pills '... it works' This is the placebo effect in action; certainly something we could study more. Hence why we have clinical trials. There's nothing western about it, it's empiricism. Any traditional medicine that even vaguely might work is studied in depth. If it works then it becomes a part of medicine. There is nothing Western or Chinese about medicine.
Please can you show me how hypnosis 'works'.

Listen to a few podcasts or interviews by Richard Bandler. He can explain it better than me. Not really interested in writing a very long post here to explain it from my pov, cause I know most people would dismiss it out of hand. (not directing that at you, btw)

All quackery.

Not really. I've had significant improvements in my shaking disorder due to Acupuncture treatments... something that western medicine failed to do over a dedicated period of two decades. I'm not dismissing Western medicine btw. It works, but there is a large degree of experimentation involved.

It sounds like you should write up your story to a journal. It may help other people with your condition also. You see this is how science and medicine works. There was no such thing as "Lou Gehrig's" disease until it was discovered.

I'm a moderator on a number of intentional support groups for the condition.

I'm not really bothered to argue about Chinese traditional medicine except to say that Western medicine doesn't accept everything into the fold, even when there is ample proof that it's of use, especially when it relates more to the mind rather than solely to the body.

Traditional Chinese medicine under the CCP is a scam. If it wasn't under the CCP, it's possible that some treatments might become more useful, but the quality of "doctors" is generally too low for that to happen. In any case, it's not really part of the discussion. The use of exotic meats or animal parts/bones is a retarded practice and should be blocked at every opportunity.

cryptocurrency

I use parts of a pig to treat hunger.

blinding

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I use parts of a pig to treat hunger.

Apparently if you were dead and put in a pen of hungry pigs ; They would eat you.

cryptocurrency

blinding wrote: »

Apparently if you were dead and put in a pen of hungry pigs ; They would eat you.

Yes apparently, are you saying they would use me to treat hunger?

blinding

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Yes apparently, are you saying they would use me to treat hunger?

In your case it would be the Revenge of the Swine;);):D

cryptocurrency

blinding wrote: »

In your case it would be the Revenge of the Swine;);):D

I had swine flu, they have had me once

blinding

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I had swine flu, they have had me once

Thats just their Marinade for you. Softens the Flesh;):D

MadYaker

Interesting bit on China here.

Here's the study he's talking about https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30089-X/fulltext

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

Interesting bit on China here.

Here's the study he's talking about https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30089-X/fulltext

He doesn't talk about Vietnam, Korea or Australia ...he doesn't believe Russia or any nation that might make western europe look bad. Hmmm

Maybe the world is lying

MadYaker

He spoke about Australia at length in that video. Did you read the study? He has frequently bashed the UK and US governments in his other videos, and was critical of football matches and cheltenham going ahead in the UK in early March in that exact video I linked. This guy posted a video in January saying that this virus was going to cause a global pandemic. He's made a lot of predictions and they have all turned out to be correct. You should start watching his videos and reading the studies that he links.

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

He spoke about Australia at length in that video. Did you read the study? He has frequently bashed the UK and US governments in his other videos, and was critical of football matches and cheltenham going ahead in the UK in early March in that exact video I linked. This guy posted a video in January saying that this virus was going to cause a global pandemic. He's made a lot of predictions and they have all turned out to be correct. You should start watching his videos and reading the studies that he links.

I seen a brief bit on Aus in the video but skipped through to at speed. Will check now.

Do you have links where he looks at the likes of Vietnam

MadYaker

I can't remember if he has covered Vietnam or not. He uploads global updates daily if you start watchig his videos he might cover Vietnam at some point. Send him an email and ask him to he's pretty good at responding. https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching/about

cryptocurrency

MadYaker wrote: »

I can't remember if he has covered Vietnam or not. He uploads global updates daily if you start watchig his videos he might cover Vietnam at some point. Send him an email and ask him to he's pretty good at responding. https://www.youtube.com/user/Campbellteaching/about

The counter of this whole thread has been that the Chinese figures are not that odd within the region and The geographical location of the likes of Vietnam, Lao, etc.. are very significant. These countries are run by fairly similar governments to China. All we have had here is spin and attack from some posters that anyone who pointed that out was either defending China or a bot. I know my whole argument and the info I have been getting from people in China outside of Hubei correlates with these nations.

Why isn’t this the news story, along with the horrendous figures that are coming from Europe/North America more. Focusing on China and some fantasy idea that they could have saved the world if allowed into China in January is a smokescreen.

We keep going around and around in circles on this.

Poor_old_gill

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL2ZyZWFrb25vbWljcy1yYWRpbw&ep=14&episode=NWViODVkZjQtMGZmNS00NDRkLTgzYmQtYWJhNjAwMGVmNTFj

Podcast link- might have been posted already.
Very good listen

cryptocurrency

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9yc3MuYXJ0MTkuY29tL2ZyZWFrb25vbWljcy1yYWRpbw&ep=14&episode=NWViODVkZjQtMGZmNS00NDRkLTgzYmQtYWJhNjAwMGVmNTFj

Podcast link- might have been posted already.
Very good listen

Doesn't mention Vietnam 🇻🇳....and of course it will, isn't that the whole point

MadYaker

You should watch his daily updates. I like him because he doesn't have an agenda and he justs presents the facts. In time I think we'll find out that the outbreak started in China in november and they had upwards of a quarter of a millon cases. This would line up with the US intellegence reports about an outbreak of a contagion in China in november and the first coronavirus deaths in California in early february.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

You should watch his daily updates. I like him because he doesn't have an agenda and he justs presents the facts. In time I think we'll find out that the outbreak started in China in november and they had upwards of a quarter of a millon cases. This would line up with the US intellegence reports about an outbreak of a contagion in China in november and the first coronavirus deaths in California in early february.

Perhaps (And I do agree that it's possible), but the US does have an agenda to push, so using their intelligence reports is supporting that agenda. Trump has made it clear that he's aiming directly at China, and pushing any indication of responsibility away from his administration. That's going to be reflected in any intelligence briefings/reports that are released to the public.

MadYaker

Trump ignored these intel reports fyi, to be honest even at this point i doubt he's aware this intellegence even exists. There's no dounbt trump has an agenda, its blame everyone else in a desperate attempt to save his reelction chances. I don't blame china for what has happened in europe or the USA. But there is rising anti China sentiment all over the world now as the truth slowly begins to come out. In a globalised world we are all in this together. If they could just be straight with the information from the outset it would save everyone a lot of hassle and gain them a lot of credibility.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Trump ignored these intel reports fyi, to be honest even at this point i doubt he's aware this intellegence even exists. There's no dounbt trump has an agenda, its blame everyone else in a desperate attempt to save his reelction chances. I don't blame china for what has happened in europe or the USA. But there is rising anti China sentiment all over the world now as the truth slowly begins to come out. In a globalised world we are all in this together. If they could just be straight with the information from the outset it would save everyone a lot of hassle and gain them a lot of credibility.

Yes, but the the US government has been fractured for two decades now. We've seen that with the FBI, CIA, etc playing up to various political groups before and during Trumps reign. The point is that regardless of whether the intelligence agencies are playing to Trumps tune, or not, they're no longer unbiased agencies. There are too many agendas at play here. The military corporations who would have a stake in any war. The various political groups who see China as the enemy. Some are in Trumps camp, but just because the others worked against him before Covid, it's likely they're together with regards to policy on China.

If it was anyone else, I might be more trusting of such reports, but China remains America's most comparable enemy, both economically and militarily. It's logical that most groups will be intent on further discrediting China because it boosts the US image across the world, an image that has been in decline since the invasion of Iraq under Bush.

As for the "truth", I'm skeptical. I don't trust the CCP but I know they're not inept. They're selfish bastards who want to remain in power, and they're unlikely to have as many mistakes with information that "seem" to have happened. The CCP today is not the CCP of Mao. Mao and his cronies, never really understood western society or politics. However, the CCP of today, many of it's upper echelon have studied or lived in western countries before assuming their positions in the government. They know, somewhat, how western nations behave, so I wouldn't be so quick to buy into the info released from the US. They also know the importance of controlling information, and have decades of 'successful' experience in doing so.

Regardless of what China did or said, they would be still be a nation that has concentration camps, engages in ethnic cleansing, etc.. so they don't gain anything by being transparent. That negative perception will always win out. Naturally enough really.

In closing, I wouldn't be so quick to accept the info releases from either the US or China. They're superpowers and they're playing a game between them, and we're stuck in the middle. The US will always look after their own interests first, and would prefer that any fallout happen far from their landmass. History reinforces that the US follows such a strategy. The US has always played at information wars.. all superpowers do.

thebaz

China being transparent again regarding origin of virus :-
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52420536

What could they be trying to hide ??

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

China being transparent again regarding origin of virus :-
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52420536

What could they be trying to hide ??

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

Xertz

I don’t trust the Chinese figures at all but I also don’t trust the American political agenda. Trump is absolutely nuts. There’s no polite way of saying that and he is constantly looking for external enemies to blame and to deflect attention towards. That’s been a feature of his entire presidency. He even once described the EU as an “enemy” and declared a trade war against Canada ?!!

Even the majority of the American media seems to constantly pander to this “it was the Russians who did this to us” agenda.

The Chinese are a nice handy “reds under the bed” conspiracy theory too.

American politics is absolutely screwed up for decades at this stage. It’s been a slow burn of allowing all sorts of whacky conspiracy theorists, religious extremists, anti science types, gun nuts, blatant racists, polarising very extreme laissez faire neoliberals who are dismantling even basic state services and social supports and pretty much every nutter in the country seems to be prominent in the political system.

They’ve stirred it with extreme shock jocks peddling toxic conspiracy theories, Fox News and plenty of others blurred the lines between news and entertainment to the point they’ve reality tv “boss” as president and they have also thrown open the political system to big money lobbying for many decades at this stage.

But no... it’s Russian interference obviously...

Of course the Russians and plenty of others are trolling them. It’s hardly difficult to!

However, they’ve done the vast, vast majority of the damage entirely by themselves and to themselves.

MadYaker

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

Because they would surely be involved in any such investigation to ensure transparency and fairness. But it seems they aren’t interested in transparency. I don’t think they give 2 fcuks about what western media thinks of them so not sure how that’s relevant. As more evidence continues to come out an investigation may not even been necessary. It seems likely the outbreak started in November and that they had significantly more cases and deaths than their official numbers show. I don’t believe it was made in a lab.

Why are they so cagey with information? Who cares if they did a sh!t job of dealing with this? Loads of countries have dealt with it poorly so they aren’t alone there. From the outside it looks like some counter productive and bizarre attempt to save face.

Xertz

What they care about is presenting a face of government competence to the domestic audience. The international image reflects back on them.

Also by being perceived as a rising technical and scientific centre they’re gaining soft power as a serious player on the global stage. China puts a lot of effort and resources into big science - eg give money going into space science for the sake of science etc etc

China isn’t democratic (obviously) but a bit like a medieval kingdom, the ruling elite need to be seen as capable and competent or they risk sparking uprisings.

If they lose the trust of the population, the system could break.

That’s what motivates the CCP to always want to control the narrative. They are masters at maintaining the status quo through intense reputation management censoring, coercing and monitoring.

You have to think of China as more like the structures of a slightly paranoid enormous corporation.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Look at it all from China's perspective... and don't just start from today. Consider the way that western media, and governments have behaved towards China on a regular basis, and you'll see plenty of reasons for them not to trust any such probe.

The virus originated in China , thats why , the impact the virus has had on the rest of the world, the world have every right to know where and how virus originated.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

What do they gain by being transparent, and why should they believe that any such probe will be unbiased or honest?

Apparently they've been rejecting the original American probe since January also(a little bit more understandable).

This is however an "independent international investigation into the origin of the coronavirus." Nothing american about it.

What do they have to gain? They can be responsible members of the international community that have the same respect afforded to them when the next virus originates somewhere else.

But as usual China wants all the perks of being an international player without participating.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Because they would surely be involved in any such investigation to ensure transparency and fairness. But it seems they aren’t interested in transparency. I don’t think they give 2 fcuks about what western media thinks of them so not sure how that’s relevant. As more evidence continues to come out an investigation may not even been necessary. It seems likely the outbreak started in November and that they had significantly more cases and deaths than their official numbers show. I don’t believe it was made in a lab.

Why are they so cagey with information? Who cares if they did a sh!t job of dealing with this? Loads of countries have dealt with it poorly so they aren’t alone there. From the outside it looks like some counter productive and bizarre attempt to save face.

Yes, but they're not alone in trying to offload how they reacted to the virus. Look at how Spain reacted to the news to the virus throughout March, and how they're refusing any degree of responsibility for it. The Spanish media being just as bad btw. We've seen similiar throughout large parts of the Western world. A negligent attitude to the virus, and then, the offloading of any responsibility... so China doing the same shouldn't be a surprise, since they've never been a nation to accept responsibility for anything.

Why should they care? Because it won't stop with an initial review. It is the nature of western society now, due to the evolution of social media and the internet, to expand something far more than it's original scope. Often without any real evidence to support that expansion in scope. While they don't care what western media or governments think/say outside of their borders, they do care about the impact on their own population, but also, the impact on their trading/economic partners in Asia.

Personally, I don't see any reasons for them to behave differently than they have in the past. They don't gain anything, and they've no reason to trust any western organisation to be impartial. Everything has political links now. Oh, we can dismiss such links, because we're westerners and believe that our culture is more honest, but China won't see it that way. There will always be a degree of paranoia (justified or not) about the influence of the US (or their allies) on any investigation.

Honestly, I do think the best thing for China would be to provide every possible access to an independent body for the investigation, and to involve themselves, in a fair way, in that investigation.... but I have extremely little hope that it would happen. But then, I felt the same way about the invasion of Iraq investigation, or the investigation into the Irish Banking crash. The moment that an investigation is aimed at a political group or issue, it's compromised with the agenda's going on. Guess I've become too cynical.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Apparently they've been rejecting the original American probe since January also(a little bit more understandable).

Ahh well, when such a probe is started with claims released to the media, it's understandable to believe an American probe would be biased from the start.

This is however an "independent international investigation into the origin of the coronavirus." Nothing american about it.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anything coming from an established western led organisation won't have ties or be influenced by either the US or their direct allies.

Where would this international independent group come from?

What do they have to gain? They can be responsible members of the international community that have the same respect afforded to them when the next virus originates somewhere else.

But as usual China wants all the perks of being an international player without participating.

True enough... Their behavior since inclusion in the WTO shows that. Once again, I'm not sure why people are expecting a change in behavior. They've never been a team player with the international community, and have broken/twisted nearly every international agreement they've ever made.