The Chinese Big Lie

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

The virus originated in China , thats why , the impact the virus has had on the rest of the world, the world have every right to know where and how virus originated.

Sure. And I suspect that the CCP would allow a limited investigation led by their own science/medical community, with international observers. Whether such a limited investigation would be accepted as being accurate, is another story.

I don't believe that they will want an organisation that they have no influence over doing the investigation.

And the first case detected was in China... not that it's been proven to have originated in China. It's things like this that will encourage the CCP to resist being helpful, because many in the West have already decided that China is responsible. Theories accepted as fact, rather than accepting them as the theories that they are.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that anything coming from an established western led organisation won't have ties or be influenced by either the US or their direct allies.

Where would this international independent group come from?

You'd be falling into the same association fallacy trap others have fallen into not believing anything coming out of China.

The group, the World Health Assembly I believe according to that article; the decision making body of the WHO. Trump recently withdrew funding; not sure how much of an influence the US still have.

This is what a European Report had to say:

Some state-controlled social media channels continue to spread the theory of the outbreak in Wuhan being linked to US military representatives, indicating a continued intent to spread confusion about the origin of the virus

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/eeas-special-report-update-2-22-april/

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

You'd be falling into the same association fallacy trap others have fallen into not believing anything coming out of China.

Well, yes. We're all flawed, aren't we?

The group, the World Health Assembly I believe according to that article; the decision making body of the WHO. Trump recently withdrew funding; not sure how much of an influence the US still have.

And what would they do to regain that funding? Or the threat of losing further funding from other nations associated with the US?

This is what a European Report had to say:

https://euvsdisinfo.eu/eeas-special-report-update-2-22-april/

Fair enough, although it is telling that there was little mention of European or US narratives which can be found online or in the media. It's a report aimed at countries external to the "West". (I've seen references that the report notes US or other western narratives, but I've found very little being highlighted)

I'm genuinely not surprised by the amount of misinformation campaigns going on by China, Russia or other countries targeting the EU or the US. We live in an information age, and the internet/social media encourages the distribution of such initiatives.... but it's illogical not to imagine the same coming out of the US, as they have their own propaganda campaigns.


For example:
"According to Graphika, conservative groups have a larger footprint on the global disinformation map surrounding the coronavirus than liberal groups; they make up 27% and 8% of the total presence, respectively. Right-leaning groups — particularly in the US, Italy, and France — are also more active than left-wing groups in engaging with coronavirus disinformation, the firm's report said."

Or the report on disinformation for the US 2020 elections

I'm not seeking to excuse China. Not even slightly. However, it's foolish to assume that only China and Russia are pushing dis/misinformation campaigns. The US has been running propaganda exercises for decades, and there's no way, that they would not be take advantage of this opportunity to damage China. Especially, with Trump at the wheel. That man is addicted to social media and understands the power of the internet for influencing people's perceptions.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

And what would they do to regain that funding? Or the threat of losing further funding from other nations associated with the US?

I have no idea how the politics of the WHO work, except that there is a lot of politics at work.

I'm genuinely not surprised by the amount of misinformation campaigns going on by China, Russia or other countries targeting the EU or the US. We live in an information age, and the internet/social media encourages the distribution of such initiatives.... but it's illogical not to imagine the same coming out of the US, as they have their own propaganda campaigns.

Well this thread is about China's lies. I'm sure there are American lies, European lies etc.... but this is not quite relevant to the coronavirus and the international community's desire to conduct an investigation in China.

As much as I'm sure Trump would like to blame China for everything, he simply does not have that power. He doesn't have the power to threaten the scientists in a way that the Chinese government can do over their scientists. At the moment Trump couldn't sneeze without it being a major headline. There are just as many in his government vehmently against him as there are for him and he can't send the families of dissenters into forced labour camps.

I'm not seeking to excuse China. Not even slightly. However, it's foolish to assume that only China and Russia are pushing dis/misinformation campaigns. The US has been running propaganda exercises for decades, and there's no way, that they would not be take advantage of this opportunity to damage China. Especially, with Trump at the wheel. That man is addicted to social media and understands the power of the internet for influencing people's perceptions.

I'm not assuming anything. I know Trump is actively trying to blame China, perhaps their intelligence agencies are playing information warfare I wouldn't put it past them.
Eyes on the ball though, China won't allow inspectors in. That's the problem again China not playing by the rules of the international community that they signed up to. They reap the rewards while flagrantly dismissing the rules.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure. And I suspect that the CCP would allow a limited investigation led by their own science/medical community, with international observers. Whether such a limited investigation would be accepted as being accurate, is another story.

I don't believe that they will want an organisation that they have no influence over doing the investigation.

and that is why this cover-up is outrageous - I dont want a CCP investigation , an independent investigation would be the only one to hopefully give us the cause and reason for outbreak , that has devasted so many in the world - and yet China refuses to co-operate with a such an independent investagion. Shame on the CCP.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

I have no idea how the politics of the WHO work, except that there is a lot of politics at work.

Yup. agreed.

Well this thread is about China's lies. I'm sure there are American lies, European lies etc.... but this is not quite relevant to the coronavirus and the international community's desire to conduct an investigation in China.

Sure it is, because it reflects on how China reacts. And I disagree with the complete focus on China regarding this thread. We are talking about a superpower and how the US or EU behave has relevance. If China is behaving the same as the US has done in the past, then that should be discussed. This is a global issue, and everything is relevant. Dismissing other factors as irrelevant simply encourages a bias to exist.

I don't think anybody on the thread, is trying to forgive or excuse China's behavior. But I think a more balanced perspective is important. We're not Americans, or Chinese. We don't have a direct stake in promoting a particular worldview, so a little more neutrality in thinking is worth pursuing. The world is no longer a simple place... technology and telecommunications have changed it too much for that to be the case again.

As much as I'm sure Trump would like to blame China for everything, he simply does not have that power. He doesn't have the power to threaten the scientists in a way that the Chinese government can do over their scientists. At the moment Trump couldn't sneeze without it being a major headline. There are just as many in his government vehmently against him as there are for him and he can't send the families of dissenters into forced labour camps.

Ahh well, while I would agree that the US wouldn't have the ability to threaten or silence scientists in a public forum, they can (and have) done so for security reasons before. Scientists have been discredited previously for making statements contrary to government policy. Both homeland security and their own intelligence services keep tabs on all their own scientists, and what they're up to. When a country implements laws to increase security and provide wide powers for dealing with "terrorism", then we must acknowledge that the possibility exists that there's more going on than we see.

Wiki
"In July 2014, the Society of Professional Journalists published an open letter to Barack Obama,[25] criticizing efforts to "stifle or block" coverage, despite his 2008 campaign promises to provide transparency.[26] 38 journalist organizations signed the letter, which bulleted several examples of the administration's obstruction, including blocking reporters from specific staff people. The letter also states that reporters were blackballed by Federal agencies who were written about critically.[26] Obama used the Espionage Act to put a record number of reporters' sources in jail"

"Following the election of Donald Trump, his administration pursued means of preventing federal staff from speaking publicly, with the American Association for the Advancement of Science, "the largest scientific society in the world", warning of possible "censorship and intimidation" of the American scientific community.[28] The Trump administration "issued de facto gag orders to government science agencies like the EPA and USDA, ordered that the EPA take down its climate webpage, and have mandated that any studies or data from EPA scientists must undergo review by political appointees before they can be released to the public"

BTW, I'm not making direct comparisons of the US to China. The way that each country is run is completely different. But both nations are very careful about their secrets... and they have different ways of dealing with those who break their silence on government related issues.

I'm not assuming anything. I know Trump is actively trying to blame China, perhaps their intelligence agencies are playing information warfare I wouldn't put it past them.

Good. We're in agreement then. That's nice.

Eyes on the ball though, China won't allow inspectors in. That's the problem again China not playing by the rules of the international community that they signed up to. They reap the rewards while flagrantly dismissing the rules.

Eyes on the ball? Ahh well, I prefer to see why China is so resistant to such initiatives. I like to know what's going on in a broad sense. Sure, I can see that the CCP are bad, nasty, paranoid, etc.. but I do want to know what other agendas are at play, and whether the CCP has reason to fear international condemnation based on disinformation, or other "hidden" agendas.

The invasion of Iraq by Bush Jnr taught me to never again accept the easy answers coming from the US or other governments. They often play with the truth, for their own purposes.

As for reaping the rewards? Can you be more specific? (If we're talking solely about economic agreements, then I completely agree with you)

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

and that is why this cover-up is outrageous - I dont want a CCP investigation , an independent investigation would be the only one to hopefully give us the cause and reason for outbreak , that has devasted so many in the world - and yet China refuses to co-operate with a such an independent investagion. Shame on the CCP.

It's early days yet. I wouldn't be too surprised to see China open up to such an investigation after a while, although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

As for Shame on the CCP... They're politicians. I don't believe most politicians feel any shame for their behavior.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

oh !!!!! I thought virus originated in china - Wuhan to be specific - the world has a right to know did it emerge from a wet market or a Wuhan lab - but you are probably right the CCP probably have no shame , but many are seeing them for what they are - a Superpower Dictatorship (but many overlook this including our own Government

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

oh !!!!! I thought virus originated in china - Wuhan to be specific - the world has a right to know did it emerge from a wet market or a Wuhan lab - but you are probably right the CCP probably have no shame , but many are seeing them for what they are - a Superpower Dictatorship (but many overlook this including our own Government

The virus was first detected in Wuhan (publicly anyway). The wet market being the closest link to a source... and still a theory. Just as the idea of the lab is a theory. There's no evidence to support either theory (yet), just a more reasonable association with the wet market. Reasonable assumptions being the case, rather than any actual proof that these theories are fact.

I don't know why people are pushing that China were ever seen as something other than a totalitarian state. Western media often reports on the human rights violations by China, how it treats its citizens, and how it reneges on past agreements. None of this is a secret. There hasn't ever been a movement within the west to encourage people to see China as a "normal" nation similar to a democracy. And I seriously don't believe that anyone thought they were. My own parents remember the news about the Cultural revolution when it happened, and that's shaped their views on China. Further reports, have simply reinforced those views. (While my parents visited me when I lived in Japan/S.Korea.... they never came to China, even though I lived there longer. They didn't trust China as a destination.)

The Irish government sees import/export value. China is a good source of income... and Ireland is an expensive country to run. It's not about making China into some kind of Utopian dream. They (the government) will encourage a neutral stance on China due to the rewards in doing so, and because it doesn't gain Ireland anything to be hostile. The US can get away with it, but a small nation like Ireland has to be more diplomatic.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know why people are pushing that China were ever seen as something other than a totalitarian state. Western media often reports on the human rights violations by China, how it treats its citizens, and how it reneges on past agreements. None of this is a secret. There hasn't ever been a movement within the west to encourage people to see China as a "normal" nation similar to a democracy.

I guess this is a wakeup call for the West. They have treated China like a normal democracy on the world stage always hoping they would live up to this billing. It hasn't happened and this strategy needs to change.

thebaz

Deleted User wrote: »

The virus was first detected in Wuhan (publicly anyway). The wet market being the closest link to a source... and still a theory. Just as the idea of the lab is a theory. There's no evidence to support either theory (yet), just a more reasonable association with the wet market. Reasonable assumptions being the case, rather than any actual proof that these theories are fact.

and the only way we will find out what happened is through an Independent investigation, not a CCP investigation that will tell us nothing , but China are refusing this independent review , which smells of more cover-up by the CCP.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

I guess this is a wakeup call for the West. They have treated China like a normal democracy on the world stage always hoping they would live up to this billing. It hasn't happened and this strategy needs to change.

I don't see it like that. The West played their usual political games thinking they could manipulate China into playing ball, in spite, of China always puling a fast one (of one type or another). The West got greedy, and displayed a false sense of superiority. They saw the market that China presented, believing that the West would remain strong regardless of what happened.

Instead, we have had economic crashes, recessions, and an increase in social instability unlike any other time in our history. Now, the West needs the market that China offers, because it has the population to soak up our production (high production cost, high priced items). Where once we had bank debt piling up, we have switched to business debt. Which is why you're seeing all these cash infusions, either from Trump or from the EU. Our economies have become extremely fragile systems, and now, many Western nations want to push the attention away from the vulnerabilities that Covid has revealed.

I don't see any kind of wake up call. If anything I'm seeing a hunkering down mentality, by pushing reasons to external sources. Rather than deal with our economies, or our splintered and inept political leadership, the focus is on creating an enemy in China. Making demands that China can never accept. Chinese culture in regards to face, and their history to date, means that they can't knuckle down to obvious (and public) foreign demands. They're pushing China into a corner... and I'm not hopeful about what will happen once China decides to push back.

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

and the only way we will find out what happened is through an Independent investigation, not a CCP investigation that will tell us nothing , but China are refusing this independent review , which smells of more cover-up by the CCP.

Anything the CCP does will smell like a cover-up because that's what people want to happen. The internet is full of this attitude. China needs to be the bad guy in all of this.

An independent investigation by whom? Who is it, that China will trust to remain impartial? Would you trust the WHO to conduct such an investigation?

I've had these conversations with my students. Yes, Yes. I know that most posters here believe that Chinese people can't say anything bad about the government or speak honestly on a subject, but it's not true. They can. They just can't go up on YouTube to announce it to the world. And from the perspective of my students, they would feel that the West has done very little to deserve their trust. After all, they all have VPNs and have seen a wide range of abuse directed against both China and Chinese people.

I was asked yesterday in class about this one, and I couldn't deny it:

If the WHO were to find China innocent of these accusations, would you be calling for another investigation.... until they were proven to be responsible?

Judging from the attitudes I've seen online... my students question is relevant.

biko

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

BanditLuke

Deleted User wrote: »

It's early days yet. I wouldn't be too surprised to see China open up to such an investigation after a while, although I doubt this push to blame China for everything will help to make that happen. There will be political dancing, and negotiations before China plays ball...

As for Shame on the CCP... They're politicians. I don't believe most politicians feel any shame for their behavior.

They aren't politicians. Politicians face the public and get voted in on merit. They are however communist scum.

Captcha

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

klaz posts read like a wumao

thebaz

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

I thought it was just me, all I was asking for was an independent review of the virus origin, which the CCP has refused, smells of a cover for me , ther are serious questions that need to be answered, when the dust setlles, and it would be best conducted by an independent team, rather than a CCP appointed one.

MadYaker

thebaz wrote: »

I thought it was just me, all I was asking for was an independent review of the virus origin, which the CCP has refused, smells of a cover for me , ther are serious questions that need to be answered, when the dust setlles, and it would be best conducted by an independent team, rather than a CCP appointed one.

The CCP also need to be involved in any investigation though. They aren’t just going to allow a load of foreigners in to start nosing around.

thebaz

MadYaker wrote: »

The CCP also need to be involved in any investigation though. They aren’t just going to allow a load of foreigners in to start nosing around.

Why should they not allow an independent team of observers ?

If they are afraid of an independent team, they are obviously trying to hide something - and for the havoc created througout the world, the world has a right to know what happened and how virus was unleashed , whether from a wet market or a lab - and any possible initial cover-ups.

biko

biko wrote: »

klaz, it comes across as if you are spinning and doing damage control on behalf of China.

On behalf of China? Why can't I simply disagree as an individual.

I have always voiced my own opinions on subjects. I don't like mob mentality. Nor do I like the ranting that seems so common these days.

Give me logical and well reasoned arguments, and there's a very good chance I'll accept them. It's happened before. Wibbs (and other posters) have made me completely shift my opinion on a fair number of topics.

However, I find on this thread, that there is an expectation to simply accept peoples statements about China. Regardless of the lack of evidence. Nah. I won't do that, if I don't agree with them. It's more ranting and making unsubstantiated claims... and expecting people to simply fall into line.

This is a discussion board. We should be able to discuss the topic of China from any angle. I live there, and I quite like Chinese people in general. I also quite like many aspects of their culture. I don't like the CCP, and what it stands for... even slightly... but at the same time, I have little interest in entertaining the fantasies that often pop up on this thread, about them being removed.

Point is. Convince me. Give me some bloody evidence. Facts. Not theories. Otherwise, i will continue to voice my opinion, regardless of whether it's acceptable to the common view or not. That's what happens so much on this thread. Few posters posting against China's behavior are trying to convince anyone. It's a collection of statements with the expectation that everyone simply accept them.

Biko, Did you really want an echo chamber? Well, you just got it. Enjoy!

Captcha

Captcha wrote: »

klaz posts read like a wumao

Whereas you sound like you're trying to curry favor with the mob by being cute.

You do realise that I have criticized the CCP and have agreed with other posters on a number of negatives regarding both China and China's involvement with covid. I've even said not to trust anything said by the CCP. Gosh. I must have been faking it. :rolleyes:

But yes, I understand. Unless you completely accept that China is evil and at blame for everything, then, you must be part of the wumao brigade. Just another way to shut down discussion that disagrees... Bring on the echo chamber where nobody disagrees, and everyone can make ignorant statements without any inspection. Yay!

But sure, I'm done.

BanditLuke

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas you sound like you're trying to curry favor with the mob by being cute.

You do realise that I have criticized the CCP and have agreed with other posters on a number of negatives regarding both China and China's involvement with covid. I've even said not to trust anything said by the CCP. Gosh. I must have been faking it. :rolleyes:

But yes, I understand. Unless you completely accept that China is evil and at blame for everything, then, you must be part of the wumao brigade. Just another way to shut down discussion that disagrees... Bring on the echo chamber where nobody disagrees, and everyone can make ignorant statements without any inspection. Yay!

At least you can discuss whatever you want on here without fear of the commies kicking the door in and dragging you away, you know like the people in Wuhan who attempted to warn the world what was coming.

2u2me

I have little interest in entertaining the fantasies that often pop up on this thread, about them being removed.

Yet you engage with every one of them! People are free to express his opinion. Biko only said

It comes across as

I believe you are genuine, but genuinely brainwashed by the CCP!;)

cryptocurrency

Vietnam...discuss

cryptocurrency

Today I have been mostly looking at Malaysia. Penang and KL.

Interesting feedback from contacts in both places.

Thye must be lying though, right?

cryptocurrency

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/04/16/covid-19-vietnam-winning-new-war-against-invisible-enemy/

Vietnam

Also, Today I have mostly been looking at the handling Indonesia

Captcha

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Today I have been mostly looking at Malaysia. Penang and KL.

Interesting feedback from contacts in both places.

Thye must be lying though, right?

What is the feedback?

fryup

This french nobel prize winning scientist is convinced the virus is manufactured....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MmqJmleaw8

Infini

To be fair I'd honestly hold back on the "china made it" until more evidence emerges to prove otherwise, that being said the CCP are going to be in real trouble in the coming years because of this, calling it their "Chernobyl" is a fairly accurate assesment of it, it's all well and good trying to hide things from their own people but the rest of the world will remember and I'd expect a more accelerated shift away from China in the coming year's over this if they continue to just brazen their way through this, people inside China tried to alert the danger of this and they covered it up till it was too late, even now they try to hide what happened because the truth is they're too afraid or downright incapable of dealing with well earned criticism and this isn't the first time a virus has come out of there it's just the first time they let something escape that caused such widespread damage.