The Chinese Big Lie

Chris_Heilong

2u2me wrote: »

It's mad that the Chinese were literally indicted in Spain and Argentina for genocide and crimes against humanity for their suppression of Falun Gong(a modern qigong discipline combining slow-moving exercises and meditation with a moral philosophy centered on the tenets of truthfulness, compassion and tolerance).

Yet what gets people in a frenzy is that they are 'racist'.

It's weird that we've crossed a line into allowing people to be persecuted for their beliefs, but not for their skin colour. Aren't they both equally despicable?

The Falun Gong founder was gaining a lot of power and influence and had been critical of the Government so it makes sense why a dictatorship did not want the religion getting any bigger. And No, religious beliefs are not as protected as race is in the hearts of the public. IMO it should not be overly protected as religion is an ideology and ideology has lead to many horrible things.

2u2me

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The Falun Gong founder was gaining a lot of power and influence and had been critical of the Government so it makes sense why a dictatorship did not want the religion getting any bigger.

Understandable, but less understandable is in the past we as liberal people have come to the aid of anyone being persecuted in this manner. If not militarily at least in spirit. A natural evolution of China might have been for them to set up their own party and take control. Perhaps it would be a much freer China today had that been allowed to happen.

And No, religious beliefs are not as protected as race is in the hearts of the public. IMO it should not be overly protected as religion is an ideology and ideology has lead to many horrible things.

Well it's not about protecting them, it's just about not persecuting them. Falun Gong actually maintains a doctrine of state atheism.

Chris_Heilong

2u2me wrote: »

Well it's not about protecting them, it's just about not persecuting them. Falun Gong actually maintains a doctrine of state atheism.

That is fair enough.

pauldla

2u2me wrote: »

Understandable, but less understandable is in the past we as liberal people have come to the aid of anyone being persecuted in this manner. If not militarily at least in spirit. A natural evolution of China might have been for them to set up their own party and take control. Perhaps it would be a much freer China today had that been allowed to happen.



Well it's not about protecting them, it's just about not persecuting them. Falun Gong actually maintains a doctrine of state atheism.

FG is into all kinds of woo (and not all of it particularly innocent: see their views on homosexuality, democracy and, er, soccer); I think where they ran foul of the CPC is when they refused to come under CPC control. But they get a lot of support from anti-CPC parties, which helps to fund them (check out their paper, Epoch Times. Have a look too at the 1999 Time interview their founder gave a few years back. Aliens are among us!).

Yurt2

pauldla wrote: »

FG is into all kinds of woo (and not all of it particularly innocent: see their views on homosexuality, democracy and, er, soccer); I think where they ran foul of the CPC is when they refused to come under CPC control. But they get a lot of support from anti-CPC parties, which helps to fund them (check out their paper, Epoch Times. Have a look too at the 1999 Time interview their founder gave a few years back. Aliens are among us!).

Falun Gong started to make inroads into party members, and increasingly had their claws in many senior party cadres in both Beijing and around the country. This spooked the politburo, and what was tolerated (and even encouraged) as a kooky syncretic spiritual practice in an era where green shoots of religious practices started to re-emerge after a long winter, became a deep threat(percieved or real).

Basically it would be like if many senior Republicans converted to Mormonism and then the cabinet decided to start harvesting the organs of Mormons countrywide as a solution to the problem.

pauldla

Yurt! wrote: »

Falun Gong started to make inroads into party members, and increasingly had their claws in many senior party cadres in both Beijing and around the country. This spooked the politburo, and what was tolerated (and even encouraged) as a kooky syncretic spiritual practice in an era where green shoots of religious practices started to re-emerge after a long winter, became a deep threat(percieved or real).

Basically it would be like if many senior Republicans converted to Mormonism and then the cabinet decided to start harvesting the organs of Mormons countrywide as a solution to the problem.

Scientology might be a closer fit than Mormomism, but in essence, yes. Certainly FG couldn't really be considered a fitting political alternative to the boys in Zhongnanhai, as 2u2me seems to be suggesting above (apologies if I am putting words in your mouth, 2u2me).

2u2me

pauldla wrote: »

Scientology might be a closer fit than Mormomism, but in essence, yes. Certainly FG couldn't really be considered a fitting political alternative to the boys in Zhongnanhai, as 2u2me seems to be suggesting above (apologies if I am putting words in your mouth, 2u2me).

To the boys perhaps; but what do we think about it?

It does seem to be a grass roots natural campaign that promotes non violence and meditation. Sounds more like Gandhi to me.

Sure it got mixed up with politics as it grew so large, but this happens with every ideology or religion.

Islam and Christianity believe much more crazier things and both have a strong influence at the political level. I don't see the merit of smearing them in that way.

When the Soviets killed millions of their own there was an argument that we didn't know at the time. (Iron curtain secrecy etc..) But now with China we know what's happening and it seems we don't care.

I'm just wondering why. Well to be fair Spain and Argentina both tried some Chinese leaders for crimes against humanity.

pauldla

2u2me wrote: »

To the boys perhaps; but what do we think about it?

I think you might have misread me? The boys in Zhongnanhai would not consider anyone to be a fitting alternative to their rule, as has been demonstrated. I suggest that few outside observers would consider FG as being the origins of an alternative to CPC rule.

It does seem to be a grass roots natural campaign that promotes non violence and meditation. Sounds more like Gandhi to me.

Sure it got mixed up with politics as it grew so large, but this happens with every ideology or religion.

Islam and Christianity believe much more crazier things and both have a strong influence at the political level. I don't see the merit of smearing them in that way.

It's hardly a ringing endorsement to say that other people believe strange things too. And from what I am aware of FG, there is a lot more to it than non-violence and meditation. But by all means, do not take the analysis of a stranger on boards.ie as sole assessment; I encourage anyone interested in FG to read up on them.

When the Soviets killed millions of their own there was an argument that we didn't know at the time. (Iron curtain secrecy etc..) But now with China we know what's happening and it seems we don't care.

I'm just wondering why. Well to be fair Spain and Argentina both tried some Chinese leaders for crimes against humanity.

I think one of the problems is that, all too often, the West has projected an idea of what it wants China to be, rather than taking the time to engage properly - which is hardly surprising, I suppose, given how opaque Chinese politics can be. Previously we had commentators happily telling each other that with the introduction of the Internet and with a rising standard of living, China would begin to move towards a more western model. Now we are seeing a China that is presented as sinister, intent on world domination, etc. Both these views, IMO, are much more directed towards shaping domestic opinion than in getting a handle on what China itself is about (to put it crudely).

You might find the following article of interest: it is somewhat related to the point I am trying to make:

https://macropolo.org/the-frankenstein-that-wasnt-a-realistic-appraisal-of-todays-china/

2u2me

I just don't see the utility in slating FG as an ideology. It's the fact that they are being persecuted is what annoys me, even more so that people don't care.

I'm sorry to evoke Godwin's law, but when Hitler persecuted the Jews we did not question how substantive Judaism is.

The strategy of hoping China would adapt and change obviously hasn't worked and the west already seem to be implementing a different strategy.

The CCP fear for the very survival of themselves and their ideology so I understand all of their actions. It just doesn't make it right.

pauldla

2u2me wrote: »

I just don't see the utility in slating FG as an ideology. It's the fact that they are being persecuted is what annoys me, even more so that people don't care.

It's not 'slating' to point out that some of their beliefs are questionable. If FG teaches that aliens are promoting the mixing of human races in order to 'overtake' humanity, then I do think that questions are certainly in order.

I'm sorry to evoke Godwin's law, but when Hitler persecuted the Jews we did not question how substantive Judaism is.

To be clear, I am not in this conversation to justify any persecution of FG by the CPC (!!!). I was under the impression that I was challenging the idea of FG as being a suitable political alternative to CPC. Have I been misconstrued?

The strategy of hoping China would adapt and change obviously hasn't worked and the west already seem to be implementing a different strategy.

The CCP fear for the very survival of themselves and their ideology so I understand all of their actions. It just doesn't make it right.

What strategy do you think will 'work'?