Relaxation of restrictions

easypazz

Hmmzis wrote: »

Exactly.
The most we can do is keep the hospitals and ICUs from being overloaded.

Barring a useful treatment regime/drugs, it'll be a balancing act.

After a while it will be just another thing we need to manage alongside cancer treatment, homeless, suicide and everything else.

robinph

VinLieger wrote: »

Most creches already only have groups of 10 - 15 max due to how many carers are required.
Making these even smaller would be impossible because the facilities for each group could not be divided in a way that would work.

Why couldn't it work?

Big creches with loads of kids in just become a thing of the past and the childcare is more along the lines of smaller groups. Childcare used to be done mostly on a 1-1 basis with one parent minding the kid whilst the other went out to work. Gradually that has changed through people minding other families kids as some families had two parents working to now where until a couple of moths ago most families would have both parents working and the kids in big creches.

No reason that things can't revert back towards they way they were. It's either that or just give up on the world.

History Queen

trapp wrote: »

Alternative is schools closed for another year or two.

Educators are going to have to think outside the box.

Staggered timetables with each child attending school for 1 day per week perhaps which will give more focus to work at home on the other days.

Forget the staffroom. Eat lunch on your own. Hardly an insurmountable issue.

True re the lunch part, not so much the access to IT, but again, that could be done without it isn't that long ago teachers only had textbooks. Staff separation is probably the easiest issue to overcome. Shared classrooms may also bean issue. But again, some put of the box thinking will find a solution.

Regarding students coming to school one day a week, I think that's an interesting suggestion. Who decides what subjects they go to? We have 9 classes a day. Ordinarily I see my first year english class 5 times a week. There's 28 in the class. Would all 28 come to me once or would we split the class in to 5 separate groups so I only see 5/6 per day and teach the same material 5 times? One online session would be more efficient. What about options subjects where they only see them 3 days a week? How would staggered timetables work there? Teachers usually teach different levels and subjects so timetabling could be an issue to allow equal access to the curriculum to all. As well as the cpre timetable would we be able to allow access tothe otherservicestheschool provides that our vulnerable students are missing out on? Counselling/student support/ resource/learning support/SNA access.

I would argue that these supports need to be put in place first as these are the supports that are either the most difficult completely impossible to provide remotely.

I'm not saying your ideas are not without merit. I'm just pointing out that schools are problematic because how we ran then up to now isn't conducive to social distancing. Obviously if we want to reopen them the way we do things will have to change. I agree completely with you on that point. It'll take someone much more creative than me to come up with solutions.

Cupatae

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

How long are you prepared to wait and after that period in time how do you see the economy functioning. I personally know a lot of SME's that will not financially survive another 4 weeks of this. The aftermath of this long lockdown could make Corona Virus look like childs play.

If there is a strategy in place by medical professionals and they recommend that in the long run we d be better off if the lockdown was extended id back that.. were in it now we ve commited to the lockdowns we have to see it done.

I think the biggest disaster of all will be if we do a halfway house job on it and we end up with a rampant virus and economic damage.

Xertz

trapp wrote: »

Exactly festivals, big matches and so on are not safe for now.

We need to look at what's essential first.

.

I am actually finding the guidance on big festivals VERY lacking at the moment. I would far rather the Government put out a blanket request to just reschedule / postpone them until at least after September.

If you take for example Cork's Pride festival has been pushed out to September, which to me makes an awful lot of sense. If it gets pushed again, so be it, but at least there's a pragmatic decision there. A lot of other festivals have just called themselves off like the Cork Mid Summer Festival, various literary festivals and so on.

Some have also gone online, especially some of the arts stuff. For example, the Belfast Film Festival was run online, which is not ideal but it was better than nothing.

I'm aware of a few festivals that have yet to cancel as they're just not clear on what's happening. It's not out of some kind of profit motive or something, but rather that they just have not been given clear guidance and are being very optimistic.

The downside of that is that you will get community groups, promoters, sports bodies and others stringing things out until the last minute which can create big financial problems for them and also just a lot of unrealistic expectations and lack of planning.

I'd far rather see some of these things finding alternative ways of doing things safely or putting effort into getting ready for 2021.

Cupatae

trapp wrote: »

Exactly festivals, big matches and so on are not safe for now.

We need to look at what's essential first.

If schools are essential is the question?

If they are then educators need to spend the next few months finding suitable arrangements that are not all focused on online learning, particularly at primary level and look to reopen in January 2021 and work through the summer next year.

A few posts ago you were "everyone or no one" now its grand to cancel concerts,matches ect alot of people work in those industries aswell.

Cupatae

Xertz wrote: »

I am actually finding the guidance on big festivals VERY lacking at the moment. I would far rather the Government put out a blanket request to just reschedule / postpone them until at least after September.

I'm aware of a few festivals that have yet to cancel as they're just not clear on what's happening. It's not out of some kind of profit motive or something, but rather that they just have not been given clear guidance and are being very optimistic.

The downside of that is that you will get community groups, promoters, sports bodies and others stringing things out until the last minute which can create big financial problems for them and also just a lot of unrealistic expectations and lack of planning.

I'd far rather see some of these things finding alternative ways of doing things safely or putting effort into getting ready for 2021.

They banned gatherings, so = No Festivals.

Xertz

Cupatae wrote: »

They banned gatherings, so = No Festivals.

They did, but not with any kind of time scale. It's only up to the end of the current restrictions.

We need a concept of what's happening for the next few months.

There are several festivals in June/July still in theory going ahead, or if they are going to cancel, they haven't formally announced it yet, which is understandable but given the circumstances, it just seems a TAD optimistic.

It's the same with the summer sports schedule. If we'd a clear decision on that until autumn, clubs and organisations could focus elsewhere for now.

With festivals you're going to get into potential scenarios where people will have bought tickets for things that won't happen and then you get into a mess.

trapp

History Queen wrote: »

True re the lunch part, not so much the access to IT, but again, that could be done without it isn't that long ago teachers only had textbooks. Staff separation is probably the easiest issue to overcome. Shared classrooms may also bean issue. But again, some put of the box thinking will find a solution.

Regarding students coming to school one day a week, I think that's an interesting suggestion. Who decides what subjects they go to? We have 9 classes a day. Ordinarily I see my first year english class 5 times a week. There's 28 in the class. Would all 28 come to me once or would we split the class in to 5 separate groups so I only see 5/6 per day and teach the same material 5 times? One online session would be more efficient. What about options subjects where they only see them 3 days a week? How would staggered timetables work there? Teachers usually teach different levels and subjects so timetabling could be an issue to allow equal access to the curriculum to all. As well as the cpre timetable would we be able to allow access tothe otherservicestheschool provides that our vulnerable students are missing out on? Counselling/student support/ resource/learning support/SNA access.

I would argue that these supports need to be put in place first as these are the supports that are either the most difficult completely impossible to provide remotely.

I'm not saying your ideas are not without merit. I'm just pointing out that schools are problematic because how we ran then up to now isn't conducive to social distancing. Obviously if we want to reopen them the way we do things will have to change. I agree completely with you on that point. It'll take someone much more creative than me to come up with solutions.

Exactly, schools completely not set up currently for social distancing but while schools are closed there is now time to consider how to work best and aim to reopen in January.

I don't think it would be a one size fits all solution, measures will have to be adapted to each school and would vary between primary and secondary.

There might have to be an element of online learning but, particularly at primary level and for practical subjects in secondary classroom will be needed too.

It will be hugely problamatic and difficult but there is time there to organise it.

The alternative is closed for 2 or 3 years.

History Queen

trapp wrote: »

Exactly, schools completely not set up currently for social distancing but while schools are closed there is now time to consider how to work best and aim to reopen in January.

I don't think it would be a one size fits all solution, measures will have to be adapted to each school and would vary between primary and secondary.

There might have to be an element of online learning but, particularly at primary level and for practical subjects in secondary classroom will be needed too.

It will be hugely problamatic and difficult but there is time there to organise it.

The alternative is closed for 2 or 3 years.

God I really hope you're wrong about having to wait til January to reopen. Maybe we'll get lucky and something drastic will change in the coming weeks and months meaning some semblance of normality can be returned to. Surely with all of our restrictions things will begin to ease. I certainly hope so.

trapp

Cupatae wrote: »

A few posts ago you were "everyone or no one" now its grand to cancel concerts,matches ect alot of people work in those industries aswell.

Everybody counts within reason.

Of course it's completely unsafe to have a big concert taking place.

But it might be possible to gradually reduce the restrictions in place over time, allow children go back to school, allow small gatherings etc.

All in time.

Xertz

There's a huge difference between primary and secondary, especially the younger elements of primary where social distancing may be next to impossible to achieve as you're talking about 4,5,6,7 year olds who won't necessarily understand why they need to be more careful.

If it were me, I would put more emphasis onto the senior cycle of secondary school in terms of priorities for class room time and try to keep the rest ticking over as best as possible.

Ireland's actually a bit unusual in the way we don't distinguish between the 'high school' 'lycée' end of school i.e. young adults pretty much 16-18 year olds vs the 'junior high' 'collège' 12-15 year olds.

The two cohorts are completely different in terms of development, behaviour and ability to operate independently of adult supervision.

In a lot of cases the 'one size fits all' approach to secondary schools here for those two age bands seems somewhat patronising for the older ones and sometimes doesn't focus properly on the younger ones. At least that's how I found it anyway.

But I'd argue there needs to be very different strategies for primary school, junior cycle and senior cycle students. The needs and ability to cooperate with these COVID-19 restrictions are very different in each grouping.

Cupatae

Cupatae wrote: »

The problem with the "lets go back to normal instantly!" brigade is they dont see it ll make the whole lockdown pointless. Everyone is roaring to go back to normal, but no one has a concrete way on how to do it..any sane person would take normality back, but most understand that right now its not realistic

Plus we need to have some sort of control of the first wave, in order to contain other outbreaks.

No one is saying we should go back to normal in May. No one. It is just a strawman that you and others keep throwing out

What I and many others do expect in May is a broad outline of a roadmap of how we start to get back to some kind of normality. Which industries open first. When the 2km restriction gets withdrawn (which probably goes hand in hand with retail starting to open up) etc. A setting of realistic expectations should also mean that people will do what is being asked of them. You only have to read this thread to see that if there is a further lockdown after May, with no beginnings of a relaxation, then there will be widespread disobedience, which will probably be worse for the spread of the virus than a good level of adherence to a slightly relaxed set of rules

It will be especially dangerous for vulnerable and elderly people, for sure. And ICU admittance will rise. But as long as this is within ICU capacity, then it is part of the re-opening balancing act. Which might involve such vulnerable people being subject to other measures to try to protect them

trapp

History Queen wrote: »

God I really hope you're wrong about having to wait til January to reopen. Maybe we'll get lucky and something drastic will change in the coming weeks and months meaning some semblance of normality can be returned to. Surely with all of our restrictions things will begin to ease. I certainly hope so.

I really hope so but I fear that will be the case.

Maybe September if the department begin to advice schools of new arrangements and work towards reopening then.

I'm imagining a situation where they do nothing for now until August and then start working for an opening in January

alwald

trapp wrote: »

Everybody counts within reason.

Of course it's completely unsafe to have a big concert taking place.

But it might be possible to gradually reduce the restrictions in place over time, allow children go back to school, allow small gatherings etc.

All in time.

This is from RTE: The Minister for Health has said that the more progress that is made over the next three weeks, the more likely it is that Government can begin to tweak some of the restrictions that are currently in place.

He said that social distancing is going to remain a "very big part of life", until an effective treatment or vaccine can be found.

The part in bold is quite interesting as to what we can expect in the near future.

the kelt

alwald wrote: »

The point is to survive, protect and help the nation/society go through these tough and unprecedented events.

Wanting normality without the virus is a wish just like wishing to win the Euromillion. Accepting life with the virus as well as the unknown next steps, which will be based on data/figures/"new normality", is like playing the Euromillion knowing that there is 1 chance out of X to win...it's reality VS fantasy/dream.

You see this sensationalist rhetoric is part of the problem.

Basically saying the odds of getting back to normality is akin to the odds of winning the euro millions when that isn't the case.

And again even if it was, theres absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that. Nothing at all.

alwald

the kelt wrote: »

You see this sensationalist rhetoric is part of the problem.

Basically saying the odds of getting back to normality is akin to the odds of winning the euro millions when that isn't the case.

And again even if it was, theres absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that. Nothing at all.

Make of my post what you want but I don't make C-19 decisions based on dreams/wishes but rather reality and scientific advice. End of this point for me.

Xertz

alwald wrote: »

This is from RTE: The Minister for Health has said that the more progress that is made over the next three weeks, the more likely it is that Government can begin to tweak some of the restrictions that are currently in place.

He said that social distancing is going to remain a "very big part of life", until an effective treatment or vaccine can be found.

The part in bold is quite interesting as to what we can expect in the near future.

It's actually something that we forget was a bit part of life in the old days too. If you consider some of the stuffiness of older generations i.e. not hugging / not kissing / stand offishness about physical contact generally, a lot of that may well have come from the pre-vaccine / pre-antibiotic era when polio (a virus) and TB (a bacterial infection) ran riot through the population causing massive numbers of deaths and disabilities.

Have a look back at the 1918 flu for example, and you'll see the precautions were not all that different to what we're doing today and the polio and TB measures were very similar.

A lot of our our early 20th century social housing drives, the clearing of slums and also the general push towards 'garden city suburbs' i.e. individual houses and green spaces, was also directly linked to measure around what amounted to clean living / social distancing type public hygiene measures.

These things were part of life until the 1950s/60s.

I mean where we are now with the only solutions being nursing, supportive medicine, social measures and mechanical ventilation, it is reminiscent of the polio outbreaks with the iron lung being the only solution or TB sanatoria, where they just put you in bed in a nice hospital and kept you well nursed with two pints of Guinness (really!) a day.

Cupatae

Deleted User wrote: »

No one is saying we should go back to normal in May. No one. It is just a strawman that you and others keep throwing out

What I and many others do expect in May is a broad outline of a roadmap of how we start to get back to some kind of normality. Which industries open first. When the 2km restriction gets withdrawn (which probably goes hand in hand with retail starting to open up) etc. A setting of realistic expectations should also mean that people will do what is being asked of them. You only have to read this thread to see that if there is a further lockdown after May, with no beginnings of a relaxation, then there will be widespread disobedience, which will probably be worse for the spread of the virus than a good level of adherence to a slightly relaxed set of rules

It will be especially dangerous for vulnerable and elderly people, for sure. And ICU admittance will rise. But as long as this is within ICU capacity, then it is part of the re-opening balancing act. Which might involve such vulnerable people being subject to other measures to try to protect them

No what you and "others" are doing is asking the same question over and over waiting to get an answer you **WANT** to hear rather than the reality, Anyone with a slight bit of foresight have a rough idea where this is going and what the timeline is gonna look like, look at other countries that have been thru it theirs your map, gauge off that.

But when you are given the reality answer you brand it "lockdown forever brigade" or a "strawman" wont someone think of the economy argument.

Have patience you ll be instructed whats next in due time, until then you ve one job, do a good job on the lockdown.

iamwhoiam

alwald wrote: »

Make of my post what you want but I don't make C-19 decisions based on dreams/wishes but rather reality and scientific advice. End of this point for me.

Nobody is asking you or anybody else make decisions on wanting something .
I want normality , I know I can’t have it but I still want it

alwald

Xertz wrote: »

It's actually something that we forget was a bit part of life in the old days too. If you consider some of the stuffiness of older generations, a lot of that may well have come from the pre-vaccine / pre-antibiotic era when polio (a virus) and TB (a bacterial infection) ran riot through the population causing massive numbers of deaths and disabilities.

A lot of our our early 20th century social housing drives, the clearing of slums and also the general push towards 'garden city suburbs' i.e. individual houses and green spaces, was also directly linked to measure around what amounted to clean living / social distancing type public hygiene measures.

These things were part of life until the 1950s/60s.

It is very true and it is scary to think that the Spanish flu lasted 3 years and killed millions in a world where social distancing was big coupled with no globalization/fast and frequent movement of people. This pandemic can be multiples of the Spanish flu if the right measures aren't in place.

Cupatae

Xertz wrote: »

It's actually something that we forget was a bit part of life in the old days too. If you consider some of the stuffiness of older generations i.e. not hugging / not kissing / stand offishness about physical contact generally, a lot of that may well have come from the pre-vaccine / pre-antibiotic era when polio (a virus) and TB (a bacterial infection) ran riot through the population causing massive numbers of deaths and disabilities.

Have a look back at the 1918 flu for example, and you'll see the precautions were not all that different to what we're doing today and the polio and TB measures were very similar.

A lot of our our early 20th century social housing drives, the clearing of slums and also the general push towards 'garden city suburbs' i.e. individual houses and green spaces, was also directly linked to measure around what amounted to clean living / social distancing type public hygiene measures.

These things were part of life until the 1950s/60s.

Very good points infairness, i think our biggest Achilles heel is how connected the world is now a days, with travel so readily available to everyone as we have all seen a virus can cross the globe at the drop of a hat.

Cupatae

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Nobody is asking you or anybody else make decisions on wanting something .
I want normality , I know I can’t have it but I still want it

Yeah we know you do, saying it over and over again isnt gonna get you it, we all want normal but its tough **** at the min.

Xertz

Cupatae wrote: »

Very good points infairness, i think our biggest Achilles heel is how connected the world is now a days, with travel so readily available to everyone as we have all seen a virus can cross the globe at the drop of a hat.

Travel certainly sped it up, but when you look at how widespread and rapid the 1918 flu was, without mass aviation being available, it still was extremely high impact.

Cupatae

Xertz wrote: »

Travel certainly sped it up, but when you look at how widespread and rapid the 1918 flu was, without mass aviation being available, it still was extremely high impact.

Yeah imagine what it would be like today ! scary stuff.

normanoffside

Lord Trollington wrote: »

There is anecdotal evidence of scores and scores of people throughout the country being referred for testing by their GP only to never having a test carried out .

There was a backlog of 40,000+ people awaiting tests and they changed the testing requirements . This isnt chatter on boards. This is fact. We have no grasp on the true number of cases in the country currently .

We wont have a true grasp on how many have had it and are now immune until there is a test for that also. These figures needing to be as accurate as possible will help us in fighting this thing without a vaccine available .

Its not boards chatter.

Those 40,000 tests were all cancelled and the testing criteria changed.

That's (conservatively) about 4,000 cases from a month ago that were never tested and the vast majority of which have long since recovered.

iamwhoiam

Cupatae wrote: »

Yeah we know you do, saying it over and over again isnt gonna get you it, we all want normal but its tough **** at the min.

God , i said it twice in reply to another poster . No need to be snarky . I know its bloody tough, and its not any easier when people are narky

Cupatae

iamwhoiam wrote: »

God , i said it twice in reply to another poster . No need to be snarky . I know its bloody tough, and its not any easier when people are narky

Apologies that came across abit more blunt than intended.

alwald

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Nobody is asking you or anybody else make decisions on wanting something .
I want normality , I know I can’t have it but I still want it

Well don't be snarky yourself then asking me not to make my own decisions on C-19.

iamwhoiam

alwald wrote: »

Well don't be snarky yourself then asking me not to make my own decisions on C-19.

I asked you nothing ? How odd that you would think i did ? You are absolutely welcome to make any decisions you like for yourself ?
Wow people are really narky today