Relaxation of restrictions

khalessi

robinph wrote: »

Kids mixing with the same group of 30 other people each day, and in an environment where they can monitor their health relatively easily if they want to, and where those people are all generally from the same approximate location, is far less risky than an adult being crammed into public transport with a bunch of random people, then hanging out in an office, then in a pub with another bunch of random people or on some more public transport with a completely different set of random people.

One kid might pass it to another kid easily, but that is far easier to trace than who any adult has had contact with during their week.

One of the issues with kids is that if they get it, they are asymptomatic so they could have passed it on, get over it and get on with life meanwhile having spread it to a number of other chldren the majority of which will be asymptomatic and so on. Hence tracing not so easy

iamwhoiam

KiKi III wrote: »

Class time seems fairly easy to manage to me; separate desks and hand sanitizer every time you line up.

Hard to see how you’d manage breaks though.

Staggered starting times , half the class in one day , half another . Outdoors classes when possible , hand sanitizer every hour
Parents asked to teach hygiene and teachers showing a video every morning
It takes Organization and time but it’s not impossible .

robinph

KiKi III wrote: »

Class time seems fairly easy to manage to me; separate desks and hand sanitizer every time you line up.

Hard to see how you’d manage breaks though.

Different times for different year groups. Doesn't eliminate mixing groups entirely, and anyway there will be kids from the same family in different years, but it reduces the number of kids out at any one time and anything like that enables better distancing from them all if there is less out at once.

skallywag

KiKi III wrote: »

Hard to see how you’d manage breaks though.

Yeah, that's by far your bigger problem I'd say. Unless playing etc. was just banned and the kids had to sit at their seats during break time ...

iamwhoiam

retro:electro wrote: »

They touched on this on Prime Time last night and its the reason Sweden have not closed primary schools or crèches yet. They had some immunologist on talking about it and apparently there is a theory that adults are more likely to infect children with this virus than the other way around.

Thanks I didn’t see that . I am not disputing the fact that kids can spread it just not convinced they are the deadly spreaders people are saying with no basis

retro:electro

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Thanks I didn’t see that . I am not disputing the fact that kids can spread it just not convinced they are the deadly spreaders people are saying with no basis

Yeah I definitely agree with you

alwald

robinph wrote: »

Kids mixing with the same group of 30 other people each day, and in an environment where they can monitor their health relatively easily if they want to, and where those people are all generally from the same approximate location, is far less risky than an adult being crammed into public transport with a bunch of random people, then hanging out in an office, then in a pub with another bunch of random people or on some more public transport with a completely different set of random people.

One kid might pass it to another kid easily, but that is far easier to trace than who any adult has had contact with during their week.

Those kids being asymptomatic will spread it to those same adults you mention taking public transport and hanging in pubs which will make tracing literally impossible.

Cork Boy 53

skallywag wrote: »

Yeah, that's by far your bigger problem I'd say. Unless playing etc. was just banned and the kids had to sit at their seats during break time ...

Maybe breaks could be done away with altogether and just finish the schoolday earlier. But even at that there will still be the same issue with kids mixing before and after class times.

robinph

khalessi wrote: »

One of the issues with kids is that if they get it, they are asymptomatic so they could have passed it on, get over it and get on with life meanwhile having spread it to a number of other chldren the majority of which will be asymptomatic and so on. Hence tracing not so easy

Sure it is.

One of the kids will have got it from a parent in the first place, they know which kids are in the same class, trace that through to the rest of the parents of that class.

If individual schools or classes need to be shut down for a couple of weeks at a time then that's what happens, if that needs to be extended to forced working from home or "sick leave" due to one of the other kids parents in your kids class being diagnosed then that's what needs to happen. It's probably the only way that anything happens for the next couple of years without things just staying as they are at the moment.

It's extreme and will be complicated to administer, but what is the alternative?

khalessi

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Staggered starting times , half the class in one day , half another . Outdoors classes when possible , hand sanitizer every hour
Parents asked to teach hygiene and teachers showing a video every morning
It takes Organization and time but it’s not impossible .

Well the parents want the schools open as they want to go back to work so who minds them when not in school?

robinph

alwald wrote: »

Those kids being asymptomatic will spread it to those same adults you mention taking public transport and hanging in pubs which will make tracing literally impossible.

Only if the parents that they spread it to are also by some fluke also all asymptomatic. If a parent gets ill you can send a notification out to all the other parents of their kids class to isolate.

The kids and their parents are an easily identifiable chain of people. The moment one of the parents gets on the bus to work it becomes impossible to trace.

khalessi

robinph wrote: »

Sure it is.

One of the kids will have got it from a parent in the first place, they know which kids are in the same class, trace that through to the rest of the parents of that class.

If individual schools or classes need to be shut down for a couple of weeks at a time then that's what happens, if that needs to be extended to forced working from home or "sick leave" due to one of the other kids parents in your kids class being diagnosed then that's what needs to happen. It's probably the only way that anything happens for the next couple of years without things just staying as they are at the moment.

It's extreme and will be complicated to administer, but what is the alternative?

When you understand about what asymptomatic spread is, come back to me.

iamwhoiam

khalessi wrote: »

Well the parents want the schools open as they want to go back to work so who minds them when not in school?

I presume that is up to each parent ?

iamwhoiam

khalessi wrote: »

When you understand about what asymptomatic spread is, come back to me.

Adults are just as capable of asymptomatic and pre symptomatic spread . Look at the care homes right now

robinph

khalessi wrote: »

When you understand about what asymptomatic spread is, come back to me.

Who have these kids spread it to? Are they asymptomatic as well? If any parent shows symptoms then you can let the rest of the class parents know and get them to isolate and revert to working from home or take forced sick leave.

If you want the world to continue functioning then you need to come up with solutions, not cower in a corner until it's all over complaining that it's too difficult.

iamwhoiam

robinph wrote: »

Who have these kids spread it to? Are they asymptomatic as well? If any parent shows symptoms then you can let the rest of the class parents know and get them to isolate and revert to working from home or take forced sick leave.

If you want the world to continue functioning then you need to come up with solutions, not cower in a corner until it's all over complaining that it's too difficult.

Exactly . Found solutions and if need be change the normal routine . I would have thought that most teachers would be very open to finding solutions rather than dismissing every one .
Look how hospital staff have adapted and changed and moved very far from their comfort zones . Only by changing and adapting will be learn to find a way

robinph

robinph wrote: »

........

If you want the world to continue functioning then you need to come up with solutions, not cower in a corner until it's all over complaining that it's too difficult.

They'll come up with solutions for September I reckon, May and June, not likely.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

khalessi wrote: »

Well the parents want the schools open as they want to go back to work so who minds them when not in school?

I think this will be a major stumbling block, you can't restart the economy if there are no schools open, no childcare facilities available and no option for grandparents to mind children as that's a recipe for disaster.

News article today stating that biggest issue for front line health workers is not lack of PPE but lack of childcare options.

Most working parents will do their best to work things out around the normal school calendar in terms of annual leave etc, but if non essential businesses expect to open up before the schools/childcare is sorted then how can employees get to work if there's nowhere for their kids to go.

I don't think we should underestimate the role of schools and childcare as a vital cog in our economy.

alwald

robinph wrote: »

Only if the parents that they spread it to are also by some fluke also all asymptomatic. If a parent gets ill you can send a notification out to all the other parents of their kids class to isolate.

The kids and their parents are an easily identifiable chain of people. The moment one of the parents gets on the bus to work it becomes impossible to trace.

The transmission of the disease starts few days before any symptoms are shown hence my original comment.

khalessi

robinph wrote: »

Who have these kids spread it to? Are they asymptomatic as well? If any parent shows symptoms then you can let the rest of the class parents know and get them to isolate and revert to working from home or take forced sick leave.

If you want the world to continue functioning then you need to come up with solutions, not cower in a corner until it's all over complaining that it's too difficult.

It is very difficult to explain it to someone who does not understand the bascis so apologies that I cant chase you down your rabbit hole

robinph

alwald wrote: »

The transmission of the disease starts few days before any symptoms are shown hence my original comment.

If a parent shows symptoms then it might then be too late to stop it having been passed to their kids, and other kids in the class, but is probably soon enough to stop it being passed on from the other parents in the class to further groups by their commuting and work activities.

Not foolproof admittedly, but does get people back to work which is only really possible if schools reopen.

alwald

robinph wrote: »

If a parent shows symptoms then it might then be too late to stop it having been passed to their kids, and other kids in the class, but is probably soon enough to stop it being passed on from the other parents in the class to further groups by their commuting and work activities.

Not foolproof admittedly, but does get people back to work which is only really possible if schools reopen.

So Child A passes the virus to child B who, being asymptomatic, passed the virus to his parents out of which one is working. The working parent spread the virus prior to any symptoms to 3 work colleagues who in turn, being symptomatic or not spread the virus to their own/family kids and the chain of events continues.

Contact tracing becomes more and more difficult and the R0 rate will increase beyond the desirable level within weeks.

khalessi

alwald wrote: »

So Child A passes the virus to child B who, being asymptomatic, passed the virus to his parents out of which one is working. The working parent spread the virus prior to any symptoms to 3 work colleagues who in turn, being symptomatic or not spread the virus to their own/family kids and the chain of events continues.

Contact tracing becomes more and more difficult and the R0 rate will increase beyond the desirable level within weeks.

Just to add you are contagius 2 days prior to showing symptoms

Cyrus

alwald wrote: »

So Child A passes the virus to child B who, being asymptomatic, passed the virus to his parents out of which one is working. The working parent spread the virus prior to any symptoms to 3 work colleagues who in turn, being symptomatic or not spread the virus to their own/family kids and the chain of events continues.

Contact tracing becomes more and more difficult and the R0 rate will increase beyond the desirable level within weeks.

theres evidence that very few kids contract it in the first place, similar to SARs. so you might be overegging it.

Professor Moriarty

Cyrus wrote: »

theres evidence that very few kids contract it in the first place, similar to SARs. so you might be overegging it.

That's interesting and would be very welcome. Would you have a link?

alwald

Cyrus wrote: »

theres evidence that very few kids contract it in the first place, similar to SARs. so you might be overegging it.

Newborns have it in case you aren't aware and there is no information on the HSE/WHO websites stating that kids don't contract the virus.
Any links showing otherwise are welcome.

marizpan

alwald wrote: »

Newborns have it in case you aren't aware and there is no information on the HSE/WHO websites stating that kids don't contract the virus.
Any links showing otherwise are welcome.

I think the poster was referring to recent findings in Iceland that was published in Nature.

The New England Journal of Medicine published a large-scale COVID-19 diagnostic testing effort in Iceland, which found that 43% of positive cases had reported no symptoms at the time of testing. The study also found very low rates of infection in children under 10 years of age.

source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41591-020-00011-3?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nm%2Frss%2Fcurrent+%28Nature+Medicine+-+Issue%29

pjohnson

khalessi wrote: »

Please explain comment nieces were swabbed

It was sarcasm. Doctors and any test results are irrelevant to some.

They still claim children dont get it as an absolute fact despite what ACTUAL tests say.

Spanish Eyes

Won't someone think of the teachers.

There is no way social distancing can happen in a class of young kids ever.

I am not a teacher BTW but totally empathise with them in these circumstances. Young kids may not suffer like older or compromised people do, but they could be carriers just the same.

September is the earliest that schools will reopen IMO. And even then teachers will be brave to face the snots and tears of their primary school students. Same for Secondary too I'd imagine without the tears lol.

I wouldn't do it for love nor money, so kudos to those who will.

robinph

alwald wrote: »

So Child A passes the virus to child B who, being asymptomatic, passed the virus to his parents out of which one is working. The working parent spread the virus prior to any symptoms to 3 work colleagues who in turn, being symptomatic or not spread the virus to their own/family kids and the chain of events continues.

Contact tracing becomes more and more difficult and the R0 rate will increase beyond the desirable level within weeks.

So what is the alternative then?