Normal People [BBC - RTE] - [**SPOILERS**]

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

It all depends what stage you’re at in life. I’m 55 and my daughter is nearly 23. She found it totally “relatable”.

I actually think it has nothing to do with your age, but rather the time you grew up in. Also it helps to be female. I didn't get Wuthering Heights as a teenager, and didn't get this either. Watched 2 episodes of it and didn't get it.

What I saw was a self obsessed moany girl and a guy who is portrayed as "deep" but really was just looking for the ride. I mean not introducing to your friends is the last straw. Plus lots of sex. The actual real life story is that he didn't find her attractive enough to be seen in public with (clearly the actress is very attractive, but she's an actress), but you couldn't make a series out of that. Also I felt the mother was unrealistic, mothers of guys like that are without exception on the side of their sons, regardless what they do.

Pretty much my analysis of Wuthering Heights too, come to think of it.

I will say the acting was very good. Just didn't get the story.

I think something like this from the perspective of guys would be interesting, but these stories are always from the girls perspective.

SusieBlue

If I only saw two episodes I’d probably have thought Marianne was a just moan and Connell was only after the ride as well. But I watched the whole thing and came to learn it was so much deeper than that.

A lot of the book and the series is from Connell’s perspective as well, to be fair. Episode 10 in particular springs to mind in that regard.
I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all about Marianne and her point of view cause it isn’t. If anything it’s actually probably the other way around.

olestoepoke

Anyone notice that whilst he was on his way into the party in Trinity before he met Marriane the camera glances past her for a split second? Easy to miss.

olestoepoke

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually think it has nothing to do with your age, but rather the time you grew up in. Also it helps to be female. I didn't get Wuthering Heights as a teenager, and didn't get this either. Watched 2 episodes of it and didn't get it.

What I saw was a self obsessed moany girl and a guy who is portrayed as "deep" but really was just looking for the ride. I mean not introducing to your friends is the last straw. Plus lots of sex. The actual real life story is that he didn't find her attractive enough to be seen in public with (clearly the actress is very attractive, but she's an actress), but you couldn't make a series out of that. Also I felt the mother was unrealistic, mothers of guys like that are without exception on the side of their sons, regardless what they do.

Pretty much my analysis of Wuthering Heights too, come to think of it.

I will say the acting was very good. Just didn't get the story.

I think something like this from the perspective of guys would be interesting, but these stories are always from the girls perspective.

It had nothing to do with him finding her "attractive enough" it was the social circles he was in. she was not a part of any social circles a very intelligent but slightly odd girl. If Marriane was like all the other girls in the school and "fitted in" it would've been different. Maybe you should finish it. Also your generalising saying all mothers are like that, which is just a silly thing to say sorry.

Purple Mountain

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Anyone who is a natural beauty at that age often flies under the radar.
.

Ehhh no they don't. Unless you mean "anyone girls classify as a natural beauty". Guys notice.

SusieBlue

SusieBlue wrote: »

If I only saw two episodes I’d probably have thought Marianne was a just moan and Connell was only after the ride as well. But I watched the whole thing and came to learn it was so much deeper than that.

A lot of the book and the series is from Connell’s perspective as well, to be fair. Episode 10 in particular springs to mind in that regard.
I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all about Marianne and her point of view cause it isn’t. If anything it’s actually probably the other way around.

Maybe you are right, I will have to try more episodes of it.

olestoepoke

olestoepoke wrote: »

It had nothing to do with him finding her "attractive enough" it was the social circles =he was in. she was not a part of any social circles a very intelligent but slightly odd girl. If Marriane was like all the other girls in the school and "fitted in" it would've been different. Maybe you should finish it. Also your generalising saying all mothers are like that, which is just a sill thing to say sorry.

Realistically, if the girl is as attractive as Marianne, there wouldn't be an issue. Personality, bitchiness or oddness doesn't matter to guys in that type of social circle, as long as you are hot. In fact being hot and having personality problems is if anything more attractive as it represents a challenge.

It's the only type of social circle of men (apart from some wealthy businessmen I suppose) that actually objectifies women, and plenty of women want to be objectified by them.

Mens social circles are much simpler than womens.

And yes the mum comment was overgeneralising, but in general it holds true. Have never seen the captain of the sports team and ladies man with a mother (and father if applicable) who does anything than worships him. I'm sure they exist, but have never met any.

olestoepoke

Deleted User wrote: »

Realistically, if the girl is as attractive as Marianne, there wouldn't be an issue. Personality, bitchiness or oddness doesn't matter to guys in that type of social circle, as long as you are hot. In fact being hot and having personality problems is if anything more attractive as it represents a challenge.

It's the only type of social circle of men (apart from some wealthy businessmen I suppose) that actually objectifies women, and plenty of women want to be objectified by them.

Mens social circles are much simpler than womens.

And yes the mum comment was overgeneralising, but in general it holds true. Have never seen the captain of the sports team and ladies man with a mother (and father if applicable) who does anything than worships him. I'm sure they exist, but have never met any.

Some of what you are saying makes sense but I think you're missing the point somewhat. The guy is popular yeah and captain of the team etc but he's not your typical ladies man etc. For all of his own popularity he is also a person who doesn't fit in and is plagued with insecurities. I haven't read the book but a lot of people on here have made the point thats why they fit so good together. Both of them were odd in their own way and no one understood them like they understood each other. Connell suffered from anxiety and publicly showing affection for a girl who is an outcast no matter how pretty, in his mind was unthinkable.

splinter65

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

Male of 55, daughters of 29 and 21, son of 24. I found it very relatable and impactful. But there you go, horses for courses.

As for "So don’t do it even though every cell in your body is telling you to. " ...? Best of luck in hoping that is going to keep away a heartbreak!

I’m a woman in case anyone is unsure. If I had to go back to warn my late teens early 20s self of how to avoid the most painful heartache it would be to advise not jumping into bed so quickly with guys I was involved with.
It complicates what should otherwise be a slower build up of finding out what kind of person this is.

olestoepoke

olestoepoke wrote: »

Some of what you are saying makes sense but I think you're missing the point somewhat. The guy is popular yeah and captain of the team etc but he's not your typical ladies man etc. For all of his own popularity he is also a person who doesn't fit in and is plagued with insecurities. I haven't read the book but a lot of people on here have made the point thats why they fit so good together. Both of them were odd in their own way and no one understood them like they understood each other. Connell suffered from anxiety and publicly showing affection for a girl who is an outcast no matter how pretty, in his mind was unthinkable.

OK fair enough. I guess I don't understand them either. I never really felt the need to "fit in", either you like me or you don't. Always been like that.

MoonUnit75

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m a woman in case anyone is unsure. If I had to go back to warn my late teens early 20s self of how to avoid the most painful heartache it would be to advise not jumping into bed so quickly with guys I was involved with.
It complicates what should otherwise be a slower build up of finding out what kind of person this is.

I think the jarring thing is the writing agrees with you but, like in how it is discussed today, seems to disconnect that from how it deals with people actually getting into casual sexual relationships.
Connell’s mother repeatedly makes it clear that it’s so much worse that he isn’t taking her to the debs because he has sex with her. Likewise, Marianne needs to know if Connell actually had sex with the ‘hot girl’ Rachel(? names are fairly irrelevant anyway). There’s several more instances throughout the following episodes.

MoonUnit75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Realistically, if the girl is as attractive as Marianne, there wouldn't be an issue. Personality, bitchiness or oddness doesn't matter to guys in that type of social circle, as long as you are hot. In fact being hot and having personality problems is if anything more attractive as it represents a challenge.

It's the only type of social circle of men (apart from some wealthy businessmen I suppose) that actually objectifies women, and plenty of women want to be objectified by them.

Mens social circles are much simpler than womens.

And yes the mum comment was overgeneralising, but in general it holds true. Have never seen the captain of the sports team and ladies man with a mother (and father if applicable) who does anything than worships him. I'm sure they exist, but have never met any.

That would be my experience too, I think at that age in guys circles if you were likely to be in a sexual relationship all that matters is that she isn’t unattractive. If it’s not someone one of the other guys was already interested in, all the better. Most people are past the groups of boys and girls getting together and sorting everyone out into who shifts who by 14 or 15. IME at leaving cert age couples typically pair off on their own.

Likewise with the mother, I’ve said here before that IMO her reaction is unrealistic and seems more like an audience insert. I had a fairly wide group of friends around that age and I can’t even imagine one of their mothers reacting like that. Invariably they would be saying a) that girls of that age are only teasing and toying with them so try not to get too emotionally involved b) just be careful she doesn’t get pregnant. The reaction in the series would be more realistic if they were in a long term relationship or engaged or something like that.

MisterAnarchy

Deleted User wrote: »

Realistically, if the girl is as attractive as Marianne, there wouldn't be an issue. Personality, bitchiness or oddness doesn't matter to guys in that type of social circle, as long as you are hot. In fact being hot and having personality problems is if anything more attractive as it represents a challenge.

I think thats very true ,at least from my experience.
All of the guys in my school were mad after the rebellious type girls and the good looking loner types.
The more mysterious the better.

There would have been absolutely no issues with someone like Connell dating someone like Marianne in my times in school ,but that was in the nineties ,in a rural town though.

I think the school I went to was a bit of a nuthouse all the same ,it was extremely dysfunctional,I often thought of writing a book about it ,a comedy ,there would be some great stories to recount.

When I spoke to people in college who'd attended more established schools in Cork like Pres they seemed a bit shocked about the shenagins that went on in my school.
A few even seemed horrified .:o
I guess they came from schools where academic achievement was paramount ,most of the students in my school were more interested in messing and winding the teachers up.

Wombatman

ooter wrote: »

i think paul mescal looks very like the actor who plays gavin from gavin and Stacey?

More like a young Tom Berenger......

lainey_d_123

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m a woman in case anyone is unsure. If I had to go back to warn my late teens early 20s self of how to avoid the most painful heartache it would be to advise not jumping into bed so quickly with guys I was involved with.
It complicates what should otherwise be a slower build up of finding out what kind of person this is.

I can't say I agree, to be honest.

I've never jumped into bed quickly with anyone and I've still had enormous heartbreak, things not working out, finding out months or years down the line what someone is really like. Been betrayed by people I thought I could trust. That's just life. Trying to pretend that not having sex early on will protect you from this stuff is a bit unrealistic.

olestoepoke

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I can't say I agree, to be honest.

I've never jumped into bed quickly with anyone and I've still had enormous heartbreak, things not working out, finding out months or years down the line what someone is really like. Been betrayed by people I thought I could trust. That's just life. Trying to pretend that not having sex early on will protect you from this stuff is a bit unrealistic.

I agree totally, at that age as I remember if a girl/guy you liked a lot kissed someone else it can be pretty heart wrenching.

splinter65

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I can't say I agree, to be honest.

I've never jumped into bed quickly with anyone and I've still had enormous heartbreak, things not working out, finding out months or years down the line what someone is really like. Been betrayed by people I thought I could trust. That's just life. Trying to pretend that not having sex early on will protect you from this stuff is a bit unrealistic.

I never said that not having sex would totally protect anyone. That would be ridiculous. But there were guys I slept with that if I had only held off a while longer I would have copped on eventually that they were total pricks and I wouldn’t have become so emotionally entangled with as you do when your sleeping together. I wouldn’t have been just another notch on certain guys bedposts either. That’s bad too.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Realistically, if the girl is as attractive as Marianne, there wouldn't be an issue. Personality, bitchiness or oddness doesn't matter to guys in that type of social circle, as long as you are hot. In fact being hot and having personality problems is if anything more attractive as it represents a challenge.

It's the only type of social circle of men (apart from some wealthy businessmen I suppose) that actually objectifies women, and plenty of women want to be objectified by them.

Mens social circles are much simpler than womens.

And yes the mum comment was overgeneralising, but in general it holds true. Have never seen the captain of the sports team and ladies man with a mother (and father if applicable) who does anything than worships him. I'm sure they exist, but have never met any.

I think the major theme of the story severe anxiety and depression might have passed you by.

Your analysis didn't mention any of these themes which I assume means you didn't pick them up.

This young lad blatantly was analysing all outcomes of what might be even though they never happened.

I thought there was enough queues in the series to show this. But perhaps not... The conversation outside the debs with his buddy really showed what he didn't know. And his anxiety made him believe other realities.

lainey_d_123

splinter65 wrote: »

I never said that not having sex would totally protect anyone. That would be ridiculous. But there were guys I slept with that if I had only held off a while longer I would have copped on eventually that they were total pricks and I wouldn’t have become so emotionally entangled with as you do when your sleeping together. I wouldn’t have been just another notch on certain guys bedposts either. That’s bad too.

Maybe it's just me but it's not really the sex that makes me feel entangled with someone, it's the whole business of spending time with them and talking about deep stuff. And in my experience, the time it takes for the 'mask' to slip for most people is far longer than would be deemed acceptable to wait for sex, for even the most conservative people. I've met a good few guys who consciously or unconsciously mentally devalue me once we've slept together, and to be honest, I'd rather that happen sooner rather than later, if it's going to happen.

lainey_d_123

listermint wrote: »

I think the major theme of the story severe anxiety and depression might have passed you by.

Your analysis didn't mention any of these themes which I assume means you didn't pick them up.

This young lad blatantly was analysing all outcomes of what might be even though they never happened.

I thought there was enough queues in the serious to show this. But perhaps not... The conversation outside the debs with his buddy really showed what he didn't know. And his anxiety made him believe other realities.

It's really interesting to see how some people don't seem to be picking up any of the subtleties in the show. They're literally what make the show. The little gestures, movements, hesitations, glances. Are the people who are writing this off as a cliched teenage angst love story just not picking any of this stuff up?

MoonUnit75

listermint wrote: »

I think the major theme of the story severe anxiety and depression might have passed you by.

Your analysis didn't mention any of these themes which I assume means you didn't pick them up.

This young lad blatantly was analysing all outcomes of what might be even though they never happened.

I thought there was enough queues in the serious to show this. But perhaps not... The conversation outside the debs with his buddy really showed what he didn't know. And his anxiety made him believe other realities.

This is what I meant a while back when I said characterisation is poor. We're not given any kind of adequate background or reference for the people and events. Is his anxiety and depression due to his own disposition or is it a result of the circumstances unfolding in the TV show with Marianne? If he was in that condition, why was his mother aware Marianne was vulnerable and not her own son?

The two main characters seem very contradictory, it seemed like the only course we were being taken on was to constantly challenge our preconceptions of the two main characters but take everyone else completely at face value. Its insistence on addressing a checklist of issues through these two poorly sketched out characters meant the impact was a lot less than it could have been.

listermint

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

This is what I meant a while back when I said characterisation is poor. We're not given any kind of adequate background or reference for the people and events. Is his anxiety and depression due to his own disposition or is it a result of the circumstances unfolding in the TV show with Marianne? If he was in that condition, why was his mother aware Marianne was vulnerable and not her own son?

The two main characters seem very contradictory, it seemed like the only course we were being taken on was to constantly challenge our preconceptions of the two main characters but take everyone else completely at face value. Its insistence on addressing a checklist of issues through these two poorly sketched out characters meant the impact was a lot less than it could have been.

I'd imagine because Mariannes may have been more visible and her son's not.

Often the most extrovert personalities suffer the most with anxiety I'm sure his mother thought he had it all together.


This is reality....

Foweva Awone

I hope you heathens are happy with yourselves ... Normal People is responsible for the Corona virus!!!

https://www.irishpost.com/news/bishop-calls-rte-cancel-normal-people-ahead-longest-ever-sex-scene-aired-irish-tv-184955

MisterAnarchy

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Is his anxiety and depression due to his own disposition or is it a result of the circumstances unfolding in the TV show with Marianne? If he was in that condition, why was his mother aware Marianne was vulnerable and not her own son?

Regarding his descent into depression after the suicide of his friend ,it seemed a bit heavy handed .
He was in a stable relationship in college ,he had his scholarship and was doing well academically and seemed to be well liked among his colleagues.
He got on well with his mother and was well liked in Sligo so it was all pretty rosy in the garden.
I've not read the book but was his constant refusals by publishers one of the catalysts for his depression ?

Seamai

Foweva Awone wrote: »

I hope you heathens are happy with yourselves ... Normal People is responsible for the Corona virus!!!

https://www.irishpost.com/news/bishop-calls-rte-cancel-normal-people-ahead-longest-ever-sex-scene-aired-irish-tv-184955

He's not even a proper bishop. AFAIK he's the guy who "ordained" Sinéad O'Connor, a complete flake.

lainey_d_123

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Regarding his descent into depression after the suicide of his friend ,it seemed a bit heavy handed .
He was in a stable relationship in college ,he had his scholarship and was doing well academically and seemed to be well liked among his colleagues.
He got on well with his mother and was well liked in Sligo so it was all pretty rosy in the garden.
I've not read the book but was his constant refusals by publishers one of the catalysts for his depression ?

Well, he seemed pretty prone to overthinking and anxiety in the first place. I also think

there is actually something to be said for people who have it easy in life not developing much resilience. If you manage to make it to 20+ without any great difficulties or trauma, it must be a terrible shock the first time something bad happens or something doesn't go the way you want it to. Marianne seems much stronger and more resilient in college, perhaps because she's used to life being a struggle. She grew up with a rotten mother and brother who abused her, there are references to possible sexual abuse, she spent years alienated from her peers. Connell had it very easy in comparison - maybe that's why he takes the rejection of his work so hard?

StupidLikeAFox

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Regarding his descent into depression after the suicide of his friend ,it seemed a bit heavy handed .
He was in a stable relationship in college ,he had his scholarship and was doing well academically and seemed to be well liked among his colleagues.
He got on well with his mother and was well liked in Sligo so it was all pretty rosy in the garden.
I've not read the book but was his constant refusals by publishers one of the catalysts for his depression ?

I would think its a bit of everything.

He isn't comfortable in his own skin ("has many versions of himself"). He does seem well liked but doesn't feel he fits in. He has a circle of friends at home but he has no real meaningful connection to them. The only one who ever understood him was Marianne, who he no longer sees and it looks like she is moving on with her life in Sweden with Lucas. He is really just only going through the motions with Helen. All this on top of the fact that he feels he abandoned Rob and didn't do enough to keep in touch, an element of responsibility for his suicide - I think his breakdown is a culmination of all these things - plus the repeated rejection by publishers as you say

bitofabind

Not too get too deep here, but I think Connell's story speaks to the very nature of mental health problems in general. The very question of "what did he have to be THAT depressed about?" plays into the wider narrative of how we as a culture approach the subject of mental health in young men and why people like Rob end up dying by suicide and Connell ends up with chronic anxiety and depression.

Usually there's not a tangible, linear "reason" that satisfies that question as to why someone gets depressed, it's instead a series of life events and/or predispositions and societal/cultural things all combined - in other words it's not a black and white thing, it's very much a grey area. I feel like this series is all about those grey areas and the complicated humans in the middle of it all.

My overall take-away from the series is, life is hard and messy and often inexplicable and you rarely will know what drives people to make the often irrational and self-destructive decisions they do. But their underlying motive can be painful and deep-rooted and without resolve, and all you can do in the face of that is to treat people, including ourselves, with a bit of compassion at the end of it all.

wakka12

Bitofabind you must have studied english in college or something! Lots of great analysis from you

lainey_d_123

bitofabind wrote: »

Not too get too deep here, but I think Connell's story speaks to the very nature of mental health problems in general. The very question of "what did he have to be THAT depressed about?" plays into the wider narrative of how we as a culture approach the subject of mental health in young men and why people like Rob end up dying by suicide and Connell ends up with chronic anxiety and depression.

Usually there's not a tangible, linear "reason" that satisfies that question as to why someone gets depressed, it's instead a series of life events and/or predispositions and societal/cultural things all combined - in other words it's not a black and white thing, it's very much a grey area. I feel like this series is all about those grey areas and the complicated humans in the middle of it all.

My overall take-away from the series is, life is hard and messy and often inexplicable and you rarely will know what drives people to make the often irrational and self-destructive decisions they do. But their underlying motive can be painful and deep-rooted and without resolve, and all you can do in the face of that is to treat people, including ourselves, with a bit of compassion at the end of it all.

All that is definitely true. But as for the poster asking

why Connell's depression got very bad at that specific time, it may well have been the first time he'd ever experienced a significant tragedy in his life. He had been able to truck along until then because everything externally was going well, despite his anxiety and self doubt - he got into Trinity, good relationship with his mam, well liked, doing well at college, etc. This was an objectively traumatic event which sent him over the edge, and maybe the first time he'd had to deal with something like that.