Normal People [BBC - RTE] - [**SPOILERS**]

Aidric

Deleted User wrote: »

What I saw was a self obsessed moany girl and a guy who is portrayed as "deep" but really was just looking for the ride. I mean not introducing to your friends is the last straw. Plus lots of sex. The actual real life story is that he didn't find her attractive enough to be seen in public with (clearly the actress is very attractive, but she's an actress), but you couldn't make a series out of that. Also I felt the mother was unrealistic, mothers of guys like that are without exception on the side of their sons, regardless what they do.

Respectfully, my take was the complete opposite. Marianne was far from moany, she was an insecure vulnerable girl who projected a don't care attitude to conceal the insecurities that consumed her. An emotionally distant mother and non existent abusive father left her with no guiding light through the maze of adulthood.

"just looking for the ride" is a comment I would not associate with Connell, more appropriate for some of his loud mouth friends. Guys "just looking for the ride" wouldn't have approached their first sexual encounter with the same tenderness and consent.

As regards your comment on mothers sticking by their sons, that is broadly the case. In this case however Connell's mother is a single mom who probably has a broader perspective than the general rule. She also understood Marianne as a person and was keenly aware of her vulnerabilities.

lainey_d_123

Quick question - at the end of the series, when

Marianne, Connell and his mam meet Marianne's mam on the street on New Year's Day and she ignores them, then Marianne asks them what people 'in town' think her of her mam, Connell and his mam look at each other and his mam says 'well...I suppose people would say she's a bit odd' and Marianne says 'oh'. I wasn't sure how to take this. Did Marianne not know that everyone thinks her mam is an absolute wagon?

4Ad

6 episodes in, not alot has happened...

Darc19

If the prudish types have an issue with this, they should check out 'Elite' on Netflix.

Gay sex, threesomes, casual sex and all with schoolkids.

Hrududu

The anxiety radiates off Connell. There were a few scenes where you’d want someone to catch onto what the other person is saying and dig deeper. But they never do, which is typical of these two.

Someone said earlier that Connell isn’t a heartthrob but he’s the fella you’d meet out in the pub. He is so familiar to lads I went to school with, it’s uncanny.

Hamachi

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Quick question - at the end of the series, when

Marianne, Connell and his mam meet Marianne's mam on the street on New Year's Day and she ignores them, then Marianne asks them what people 'in town' think her of her mam, Connell and his mam look at each other and his mam says 'well...I suppose people would say she's a bit odd' and Marianne says 'oh'. I wasn't sure how to take this. Did Marianne not know that everyone thinks her mam is an absolute wagon?

This exchange also confused me. I wasn’t sure how to interpret it. The book doesn’t really provide any further insight. I would be interested in other’s thoughts on this scenario.

MisterAnarchy

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Quick question - at the end of the series, when

Marianne, Connell and his mam meet Marianne's mam on the street on New Year's Day and she ignores them, then Marianne asks them what people 'in town' think her of her mam, Connell and his mam look at each other and his mam says 'well...I suppose people would say she's a bit odd' and Marianne says 'oh'. I wasn't sure how to take this. Did Marianne not know that everyone thinks her mam is an absolute wagon?

I got the feeling that the way the Lorraine looks at Connell and from his expression, that calling Mariannes mother a bit odd was sugar coating what people really thought of her so as not to offend Marianne.
Was the mother that bad though ? She was cold hearted ,distant and career driven but she wasnt abusive in a vocal or physical manner .
It was the brother who was a nasty piece of work.

gmisk

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I got the feeling that the way the Lorraine looks at Connell and from his expression, that calling Mariannes mother a bit odd was sugar coating what people really thought of her so as not to offend Marianne.
Was the mother that bad though ? She was cold hearted ,distant and career driven but she wasnt abusive in a vocal or physical manner .
It was the brother who was a nasty piece of work.

The mother was softened a tad from the book I thought. I don't remember the line in the car when she left Marianne at station in the book (what would you do type of thing).

I am sorry but she was horrendous, she literally stood by while her son psychologically abused and eventually physically abused her daughter...again this was softened in the tv show, he spat on her in the book (didn't til dish water on her head) and the incident with the broken nose was a lot more sustained (even in the tv show she sat and watched TV ignoring the attack), I also think he grabbed her a few times etc she had bruises

Everything Italian

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Quick question - at the end of the series, when

Marianne, Connell and his mam meet Marianne's mam on the street on New Year's Day and she ignores them, then Marianne asks them what people 'in town' think her of her mam, Connell and his mam look at each other and his mam says 'well...I suppose people would say she's a bit odd' and Marianne says 'oh'. I wasn't sure how to take this. Did Marianne not know that everyone thinks her mam is an absolute wagon?

I think this is part of the construct and design of the plot. There are lots of 'back-story's' that we don't know and may be really important in adding to the intrigue of the characters lives as we observe them. You can put a slant on the back-story of that family

(esp before the death of her father

) that can, perhaps, inform most of how they all end up. I dunno, a bit like the ending, we can all fill in our version of the past, as well as our version of the future, for them.
Isn't it this tangled web of a story, like all good works of fiction, that hook's us in and keeps us engaged?.

lainey_d_123

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I got the feeling that the way the Lorraine looks at Connell and from his expression, that calling Mariannes mother a bit odd was sugar coating what people really thought of her so as not to offend Marianne.
Was the mother that bad though ? She was cold hearted ,distant and career driven but she wasnt abusive in a vocal or physical manner .
It was the brother who was a nasty piece of work.

Well, yes, sure, saying that

she was odd was a polite way of saying she was a wagon who everyone hated, but my question is why was Marianne surprised by that? Did she think other people didn't see it? Did she entirely blame herself for the way her mother treated her?

I disagree that the mother wasn't abusive. I think she was nearly worse than the brother. It was her responsibility to keep Marianne safe, and she failed. She let her be verbally, emotionally and physically abused by her brute of a son, implied it was Marianne's fault that her son was such a a vile bully, and literally just sat there while he attacked her.

I think she's the main villain in all of it, tbh. She provides no love, support, guidance, nothing. I did feel some degree of sympathy for her as it's clear that life has made her that way and she's deeply unhappy herself, but she's a terrible mother and the main reason for Marianne's unhappiness, IMO.

wakka12

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I got the feeling that the way the Lorraine looks at Connell and from his expression, that calling Mariannes mother a bit odd was sugar coating what people really thought of her so as not to offend Marianne.
Was the mother that bad though ? She was cold hearted ,distant and career driven but she wasnt abusive in a vocal or physical manner .
It was the brother who was a nasty piece of work.

She was really really bad . I couldn't imagine a lonelier and sadder experience than her being my 'mother'

Stan27

What's the story with Connells dad ?

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It's really interesting to see how some people don't seem to be picking up any of the subtleties in the show. They're literally what make the show. The little gestures, movements, hesitations, glances. Are the people who are writing this off as a cliched teenage angst love story just not picking any of this stuff up?

Yes. Not picking it up. At all. In your last post you mentioned that it took you a while to work out if a guy was a prick or not. Maybe that's because you were reading signals that weren't there?

I'm sure they are portrayed like that in the series but in many cases signals are often inside your head.

olestoepoke

Watched the show and liked it a lot. Now reading the book, I'm about a 1/4 way through. Now I wished I'd read the book before watching the show as I feel it fills in a lot of the gaps/backstories that people have mentioned here. Couple of things surprised me about the book vs the show. They leave out certain things that I think are important, e.g. Connells families reputation and background could be why he's shy and has issues and Marrianne's father did in fact hit her which again could be why she's a little odd.

Wombatman

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Well, yes, sure, saying that

she was odd was a polite way of saying she was a wagon who everyone hated, but my question is why was Marianne surprised by that? Did she think other people didn't see it? Did she entirely blame herself for the way her mother treated her?

I disagree that the mother wasn't abusive. I think she was nearly worse than the brother. It was her responsibility to keep Marianne safe, and she failed. She let her be verbally, emotionally and physically abused by her brute of a son, implied it was Marianne's fault that her son was such a a vile bully, and literally just sat there while he attacked her.

I think she's the main villain in all of it, tbh. She provides no love, support, guidance, nothing. I did feel some degree of sympathy for her as it's clear that life has made her that way and she's deeply unhappy herself, but she's a terrible mother and the main reason for Marianne's unhappiness, IMO.

The mother and Marianne ...... didn't read book BTW.

Marianne told Connell that her father used to beat her mother. Her mother comes across to me as more of a broken person, or a tragic character, than a villain. The brother seems to have gone down the road of the farther in becoming a violent pr1ck. I think the suggestion is that, without Connell's love down through the years, Marianne would have become the unfeeling wreck her mother became. She was well on the road in Sweden, but thoughts of Connell, turned things around, when she was at her lowest point.

One of the big takeaways for me, from the show, is how both C and M were positively transformed by the love they shared.

Yes life can be tough, and can be mentally scarring without love and support, but it can also be filled with passion and bravery and change and beauty. I think the show is much more positive than some people see it.

Marianne's mother was never far from her mind. All daughters wonder if they are going to 'become' their mothers.

Hrududu

Something I think is really interesting is the reaction by people watching the show to Connell. He is clearly riddled with anxiety and it affects so many of his decisions. (I'm in the middle of the show, haven't finished it yet). But you still have people wondering what he has to be anxious about, isn't he popular in school? Football star etc.

The mental health, particularly of young men is something that is brought up a lot as something we need to pay attention to. But even so we still have people basically saying "What does he have to be depressed/anxious about? He doesn't have real problems like..." So to see it depicted in a well talked about TV show is really interesting.

olestoepoke

Hrududu wrote: »

Something I think is really interesting is the reaction by people watching the show to Connell. He is clearly riddled with anxiety and it affects so many of his decisions. (I'm in the middle of the show, haven't finished it yet). But you still have people wondering what he has to be anxious about, isn't he popular in school? Football star etc.

The mental health, particularly of young men is something that is brought up a lot as something we need to pay attention to. But even so we still have people basically saying "What does he have to be depressed/anxious about? He doesn't have real problems like..." So to see it depicted in a well talked about TV show is really interesting.

I was in my late teens around the late 80s in Dublin and for about a 2 or 3 year period I knew(not personally) approx 5 or 6 guys all around the same age that killed themselves and most of them were popular, well thought of guys. Some of them good at sports and from decent families. Now I grew up on the far northside of Dublin and it was far from affluent and there were issues with drugs in some cases but not all. My point is that, men and in particular Irish men aren't great at expressing our emotions and are masters at hiding our mental health issues, even if on the outside they seem like confident, popular sports heroes.

lainey_d_123

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. Not picking it up. At all. In your last post you mentioned that it took you a while to work out if a guy was a prick or not. Maybe that's because you were reading signals that weren't there?

I'm sure they are portrayed like that in the series but in many cases signals are often inside your head.

Eh...what? Just no. Thousands of people have watched this series and have found it as deeply moving as I did. If you failed to pick up anything or get anything from it other than the actual obvious plot points, then it went over your head, honestly.

olestoepoke wrote: »

Watched the show and liked it a lot. Now reading the book, I'm about a 1/4 way through. Now I wished I'd read the book before watching the show as I feel it fills in a lot of the gaps/backstories that people have mentioned here. Couple of things surprised me about the book vs the show. They leave out certain things that I think are important, e.g. Connells families reputation and background could be why he's shy and has issues and Marrianne's father did in fact hit her which again could be why she's a little odd.

I'm pretty sure the series does refer to the father as being abusive. Marianne's brother also refers to Connell as a knacker, which hints at his family's reputation and background, but we're left to assume why he might have said that.

bitofabind

olestoepoke wrote: »

I was in my late teens around the late 80s in Dublin and for about a 2 or 3 year period I knew(not personally) approx 5 or 6 guys all around the same age that killed themselves and most of them were popular, well thought of guys. Some of them good at sports and from decent families. Now I grew up on the far northside of Dublin and it was far from affluent and there were issues with drugs in some cases but not all. My point is that, men and in particular Irish men aren't great at expressing our emotions and are masters at hiding our mental health issues, even if on the outside they seem like confident, popular sports heroes.

It's so true and I think it's a really important aspect of your own reaction that you need to be aware of and scrutinise a little more if you find yourself thinking that way. The "what does he have to be depressed about?" can be part of the aggravation with mental health issues - where young men don't have a language for it, aren't supposed to talk about it or acknowledge it, repress it until it becomes overwhelming and suddenly there's everything from panic attacks to suicides.

I agree with other people about Connell feeling so familiar, so real - we all know people like this. I can think of like two friends from college in particular, and so many other guys. It was a lightbulb moment for me a few episodes in

where he's apologising to Marianne and says something like "I get anxious about things like that" and I thought, wow, that's an anxiety problem. His behaviours up to that point were so familiar - treating someone badly because you're worried about how the reality will be perceived, the feelings of isolation in a new social environment, feeling out of place, freaking out over seemingly small mundane things

- we all recognise these things. We just rarely think about what's behind them because we're either busy thinking about ourselves or chastising ourselves for being stupid and inadequate.

I think it's so progressive and important that we see Connell in therapy, breaking down, and that scene seems to come up every time I talk about Normal People with anyone. Specifically, how relatable it is. One friend told me it was like watching words being put to his own internal monologue during college years ago.

. That's so powerful and validating.

Another take-away for me is the title - "Normal People". These are things that normal people will go through and experience indirectly and directly throughout the course of their lives. They're not uncommon or extraordinary events. That's why so many of us are reeling from this I think - because you can feel so understood after watching it.

olestoepoke

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Eh...what? Just no. Thousands of people have watched this series and have found it as deeply moving as I did. If you failed to pick up anything or get anything from it other than the actual obvious plot points, then it went over your head, honestly.



I'm pretty sure the series does refer to the father as being abusive. Marianne's brother also refers to Connell as a knacker, which hints at his family's reputation and background, but we're left to assume why he might have said that.

Yeah thats true but when asked if her father ever hit her she says no. And yeah the brother does refer to him as a Knacker but would that be enough to illustrate his families bad reputation around the town. As I said I think reading the book first(well so far Im not finished) would have made the show better as it fills in the gaps. Having said all that I really enjoyed watching it and will watch again after ive finished the book.

Hrududu

bitofabind wrote: »

Another take-away for me is the title - "Normal People". These are things that normal people will go through and experience indirectly and directly throughout the course of their lives. They're not uncommon or extraordinary events. That's why so many of us are reeling from this I think - because you can feel so understood after watching it.

Yeah I agree. And it might also be why some people's reaction is "What is it even about? Nothing happens." And if you describe it to someone it sounds a little slight. But its just so realistic, and the people in the show seem so real.

MoonUnit75

Hrududu wrote: »

Something I think is really interesting is the reaction by people watching the show to Connell. He is clearly riddled with anxiety and it affects so many of his decisions. (I'm in the middle of the show, haven't finished it yet). But you still have people wondering what he has to be anxious about, isn't he popular in school? Football star etc.

The mental health, particularly of young men is something that is brought up a lot as something we need to pay attention to. But even so we still have people basically saying "What does he have to be depressed/anxious about? He doesn't have real problems like..." So to see it depicted in a well talked about TV show is really interesting.

Haven't seen that in this thread? Some of us have been pointing out that the scenario where he risks a fall from grace for seeing Marianne isn't realistic. If this is all in his head the show hasn't established the characters well enough to know that.

MoonUnit75

olestoepoke wrote: »

I was in my late teens around the late 80s in Dublin and for about a 2 or 3 year period I knew(not personally) approx 5 or 6 guys all around the same age that killed themselves and most of them were popular, well thought of guys. Some of them good at sports and from decent families. Now I grew up on the far northside of Dublin and it was far from affluent and there were issues with drugs in some cases but not all. My point is that, men and in particular Irish men aren't great at expressing our emotions and are masters at hiding our mental health issues, even if on the outside they seem like confident, popular sports heroes.

I hear this a lot but I don't really buy it. If girls are better at expressing their emotions and seeking help then they shouldn't have such high levels of self harm, anxiety and depression. Maybe its the changing place of males in society where they are seen as either selfish and toxic egotists or insecure, indecisive and subservient doormats, like they are portrayed in this show.

MoonUnit75

Wombatman wrote: »

The mother and Marianne ...... didn't read book BTW.

Marianne told Connell that her father used to beat her mother. Her mother comes across to me as more of a broken person, or a tragic character, than a villain. The brother seems to have gone down the road of the farther in becoming a violent pr1ck. I think the suggestion is that, without Connell's love down through the years, Marianne would have become the unfeeling wreck her mother became. She was well on the road in Sweden, but thoughts of Connell, turned things around, when she was at her lowest point.

One of the big takeaways for me, from the show, is how both C and M were positively transformed by the love they shared.

Yes life can be tough, and can be mentally scarring without love and support, but it can also be filled with passion and bravery and change and beauty. I think the show is much more positive than some people see it.

Marianne's mother was never far from her mind. All daughters wonder if they are going to 'become' their mothers.

Yes, I'd agree with that. I'm on the second last episode and without having read the book it almost seemed like the writer went back and changed Marianne's father into a brother after finishing the story. Don't think that spoils any of the story, it seems to have been established right from the first two episodes that her brother is strangely preoccupied with Marianne's life.

listermint

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Haven't seen that in this thread? Some of us have been pointing out that the scenario where he risks a fall from grace for seeing Marianne isn't realistic. If this is all in his head the show hasn't established the characters well enough to know that.

Have you considered the majority of people got that. At least what I've read on the show to date indicates you are firmly in the minority.

Hamachi

olestoepoke wrote: »

Yeah thats true but when asked if her father ever hit her she says no. And yeah the brother does refer to him as a Knacker but would that be enough to illustrate his families bad reputation around the town. As I said I think reading the book first(well so far Im not finished) would have made the show better as it fills in the gaps. Having said all that I really enjoyed watching it and will watch again after ive finished the book.

Agreed. Reading the book fills in many of the perceived holes in the narrative of TV adaptation. It's about 6 months since I finished the book. As I recall it, the class differences between Marianne and Connell are much more starkly delineated in the book.

I believe that one of Connell's uncles served jail time. Furthermore, Lorraine becoming a single mother at 17 was deemed to be a somewhat scandalous situation in the eyes of the local community. Both of these events are sufficient to unfairly categorize a family as 'problematic' or 'lower class', even in present day Ireland.

Marianne is aware of the class differences and understands that her family is perceived as a 'good family' in the town. However, the interior monologue confirms that she rejects the class hierarchy. I'm sure that Connell is also aware of the tarnished reputation attributed to his family, which doubtless heightens the anxiety he experiences when dating Marianne and attending Trinity.

olestoepoke

Hamachi wrote: »

Agreed. Reading the book fills in many of the perceived holes in the narrative of TV adaptation. It's about 6 months since I finished the book. As I recall it, the class differences between Marianne and Connell are much more starkly delineated in the book.

I believe that one of Connell's uncles served jail time. Furthermore, Lorraine becoming a single mother at 17 was deemed to be a somewhat scandalous situation in the eyes of the local community. Both of these events are sufficient to unfairly categorize a family as 'problematic' or 'lower class', even in present day Ireland.

Marianne is aware of the class differences and understands that her family is perceived as a 'good family' in the town. However, the interior monologue confirms that she rejects the class hierarchy. I'm sure that Connell is also aware of the tarnished reputation attributed to his family, which doubtless heightens the anxiety he experiences when dating Marianne and attending Trinity.

Not far along enough in the book yet but does it mention how Connell's family paid for Trinity on a single mothers wage. I presume he got a grant and would this be an issue in college? Do affluent student look down on poorer student who receive grants? Also didn't he have another relative crash a motorbike at the towns roundabout? And the book alludes to the fact that people think Connell surprisingly turned out well even though he comes from what the town considers to be "bad stock"

lainey_d_123

olestoepoke wrote: »

Yeah thats true but when asked if her father ever hit her she says no. And yeah the brother does refer to him as a Knacker but would that be enough to illustrate his families bad reputation around the town. As I said I think reading the book first(well so far Im not finished) would have made the show better as it fills in the gaps. Having said all that I really enjoyed watching it and will watch again after ive finished the book.

It would depend how much you read into it, really. The comment about him being a knacker made me wonder what reputation he and his family had, but another person might just assume it was because he had a single mother and lived in a small house, and that Alan was just being a snob. I don't know was the lack of context around that comment an omission or result of stuff being left on the cutting room floor, or a deliberate decision to leave the audience to wonder and fill in the blanks. Half temped to ask you what it says in the book, but I should probably wait to read it myself.

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Haven't seen that in this thread? Some of us have been pointing out that the scenario where he risks a fall from grace for seeing Marianne isn't realistic. If this is all in his head the show hasn't established the characters well enough to know that.

Sure is that not the entire point? We're seeing it at the beginning from Connell's own point of view. Look at the way his school friends bully and slag Marianne - from the perspective of a teenage boy who is already anxious and insecure, dating her would be like social suicide.

You can see the sickening realisation that nobody actually cares dawn on him at the debs when his friend tells him everyone already knows about Marianne and then he has that mini breakdown and leaves her a voice message. I think it's extremely common for people that age to blow things totally out of proportion as they're lacking the perspective and life experience to show them what really matters. Basically the entire rest of the series is Connell feeling terrible and blaming himself and feeling disbelief that he ever had such a skewed view of how things were.

Hamachi

olestoepoke wrote: »

Not far along enough in the book yet but does it mention how Connell's family paid for Trinity on a single mothers wage. I presume he got a grant and would this be an issue in college? Do affluent student look down on poorer student who receive grants? Also didn't he have another relative crash a motorbike at the towns roundabout? And the book alludes to the fact that people think Connell surprisingly turned out well even though he comes from what the town considers to be "bad stock"

It's been a while, but from recollection he was in receipt of a full maintenance grant and travelled home every weekend to work in a shop / filling station. I know from personal experience that college in Dublin is just about feasible when you combine the grant with part-time work. It's pretty tight financially, but possible.

In terms of affluent students looking down on those in receipt of a grant, there is a slight negative bias in my opinion. I didn't go to Trinity; I attended UCD which has a relatively similar demographic. There is a high % of students from South Dublin feeder schools who tend to speak and dress in a particular manner. My "rural" accent would definitely have been critiqued in first year and I was reticent to speak in tutorials etc. However, you quickly gain confidence when you realize that you have at least the same level of intellectual horse power as those people. In my experience (15 years ago), class consciousness was a thing in university; this theme in 'Normal People' certainly resonated with me.

Yes; it's actually Marianne's mother who comments that Connell is an exception when compared to the rest of his family. Carrying that family baggage into an environment like Trinity would undermine the confidence of anybody.

olestoepoke

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It would depend how much you read into it, really. The comment about him being a knacker made me wonder what reputation he and his family had, but another person might just assume it was because he had a single mother and lived in a small house, and that Alan was just being a snob. I don't know was the lack of context around that comment an omission or result of stuff being left on the cutting room floor, or a deliberate decision to leave the audience to wonder and fill in the blanks. Half temped to ask you what it says in the book, but I should probably wait to read it myself.



Sure is that not the entire point? We're seeing it at the beginning from Connell's own point of view. Look at the way his school friends bully and slag Marianne - from the perspective of a teenage boy who is already anxious and insecure, dating her would be like social suicide.

You can see the sickening realisation that nobody actually cares dawn on him at the debs when his friend tells him everyone already knows about Marianne and then he has that mini breakdown and leaves her a voice message. I think it's extremely common for people that age to blow things totally out of proportion as they're lacking the perspective and life experience to show them what really matters. Basically the entire rest of the series is Connell feeling terrible and blaming himself and feeling disbelief that he ever had such a skewed view of how things were.

The book tells you fairly early on about his families reputation.