Pay our Nurses/healthcare staff a decent wage

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

Absolutely not the point. Tax payers deserve better than lies by the public servants they pay.


The Lie: Nurses claiming they are low paid
The truth: Not only are they better paid than most of the private sector, they also have the ability to rack up HUGE overtime, plus job security and DB pension.


The only way to stop public servants claiming that they are low paid is to see how much they are actually taking in. And they dont want us to know that....for obvious r€asons.



This is going to be a pretty hot topic when the lock down is over and the HSE bill comes up at the next budget. Mass unemployment means even the teachers have decided to quietly shut up about their recent strikes.

STAFF NURSE 1/09/19 PSPP 13 29,860 31,654 32,734 33,951 35,487 37,019 38,546 39,866 41,189 42,506 43,824 45,119 46,501

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/hr-circulars/hr-circular-025-2019-appendix-2-amended-1-september-2019-consolidated-pay-scales-final-pdf.pdf

They do not work 3 day a week they work 3 day of compressed hours which is different.

Nursing and all HSE health care salaries are public knowledge.

Padre_Pio

purifol0 wrote: »

No I said the actual TOTAL amount that they get paid. Not the pay scale.
Lets have some shocking real world examples shall we:

Nurses are in fact raking it in much the same way as the Gards did it; via overtime and a plethora of "allowances". Payscales dont mean ****, total amount is all that matters.

Your link says 4 mental health nurses earned a lot of money in overtime, presumably because mental health is massively understaffed.

Here's the rest of the article which you presumably didnt read:

Meanwhile, 108 nurses received between €90,001 and €100,000, with 351 getting €80,001 to €90,000 and an additional 834 in receipt of gross pay between €70,001 and €80,000.

A total of 3,364 nurses received €60,001 to €70,000, with 33% or 7,478 on nurses surveyed receiving between €50,001 and €60,000.


The figures further show that 27%, or 6,064, nurses were in receipt of pay between €40,001 and €50,000, with €4,026 or 18% in receipt of pay between €30,001 and €40,000.

Looks normal enough to me. 80% of nurses on 60k or less, which is basic plus all allowances. Not huge money by any stretch for the hours and type of work.

purifol0 wrote: »

Absolutely not the point. Tax payers deserve better than lies by the public servants they pay.


The Lie: Nurses claiming they are low paid
The truth: Not only are they better paid than most of the private sector, they also have the ability to rack up HUGE overtime, plus job security and DB pension.


The only way to stop public servants claiming that they are low paid is to see how much they are actually taking in. And they dont want us to know that....for obvious r€asons.

Their pay is literally in the article you linked.

Why should the vast majority of nurses be denied a well deserved pay rise just because a minority are in a position to get allowances and choose or are forced to take them?
Begrudgery is strong here.

EDIT: Actually, absolute ignorance is also strong here. "Nurse" is a catch all term to a huge variety of professions of many different category, skill and training.
Those nurses on 140k could be entirely worth their money.

cms88

I'd love to know what's a ''decent'' wage?

Padre_Pio

cms88 wrote: »

I'd love to know what's a ''decent'' wage?

I think people should look beyond the money to the conditions in Irish hospitals.

You couldn't pay me any wage, decent or not, to work a 13 hour shift in a ward.

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

They do not work 3 day a week they work 3 day of compressed hours which is different.

Nursing and all HSE health care salaries are public knowledge.

I dont want to repeat myself but I will since you are willfully ignoring the point. Final take home pay is all that matters!

A 3 day week is a 3 day week is a 3 day week. Putting "compressed" on front of it doesn't change that. For instance working only 3 days means they can works a other 3 days and rack up huge overtime.
Most workers that do 5 days "office hours" cannot do that as the extra days don't exist.

Plus many of those working in the private sector will work 5 days and do 48 hours standard whereas nurses only have to do 39. Again most people do not have the option to earn massive overtime even if they wanted and most salaried employees aren't even offered overtime at all.

Nurses have it both ways and that's because their union members voted for it years ago. And as a result they out earn most of the private sector by some distance...they just don't want us to know that.

purifol0

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I think people should look beyond the money to the conditions in Irish hospitals.

You couldn't pay me any wage, decent or not, to work a 13 hour shift in a ward.

I think you'll find many senior nurses working desk jobs, in fact that thick layer of "awful uncessary management" everyone complains about in the HSE - you guessed it many are nurses. The thought that we have all 70,000 ish nurses working wards and A&E is not the reality.

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

I dont want to repeat myself but I will since you are willfully ignoring the point. Final take home pay is all that matters!

A 3 day week is a 3 day week is a 3 day week. Putting "compressed" on front of it doesn't change that. For instance working only 3 days means they can works a other 3 days and rack up huge overtime.
Most workers that do 5 days "office hours" cannot do that as the extra days don't exist.

Plus many of those working in the private sector will work 5 days and do 48 hours standard whereas nurses only have to do 39. Again most people do not have the option to earn massive overtime even if they wanted and most salaried employees aren't even offered overtime at all.

Nurses have it both ways and that's because their union members voted for it years ago. And as a result they out earn most of the private sector by some distance...they just don't want us to know that.

Nurse should not be paid based on sentiment, the rest of the post is based on begrudgery. Who works a 48 hour week?

purifol0

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Your link says 4 mental health nurses earned a lot of money in overtime, presumably because mental health is massively understaffed.

Here's the rest of the article which you presumably didnt read:


Looks normal enough to me. 80% of nurses on 60k or less, which is basic plus all allowances. Not huge money by any stretch for the hours and type of work.

Their pay is literally in the article you linked.

Why should the vast majority of nurses be denied a well deserved pay rise just because a minority are in a position to get allowances and choose or are forced to take them?
Begrudgery is strong here.

EDIT: Actually, absolute ignorance is also strong here. "Nurse" is a catch all term to a huge variety of professions of many different category, skill and training.
Those nurses on 140k could be entirely worth their money.

Let me get this straight you reckon taking home double and even triple the average industrial wage back in recessionary 2014 is nothing to write home about??? To many people that would be the opposite of "low paid".



What about an international comparison...oh it looks like theyre doing pretty well there too huh. How are they low paid again?



And we'd be able to hire lots more of whomever we need if we simply paid them a set salary instead of this overtime lark. Budgets are a thing you know - but the tax payer is fleeced every year to pay for a HSE staff pay bill that just keeps on inceasing. Who knows maybe the ability to earn easy overtime is whats causing it...



And now in 2020 nurses are creaming it even more but that they are still allowed to go on whining about being low paid.


Again we need to make the payslips public and let the public decide.

stratowide

purifol0 wrote: »

I think you'll find many senior nurses working desk jobs, in fact that thick layer of "awful uncessary management" everyone complains about in the HSE - you guessed it many are nurses. The thought that we have all 70,000 ish nurses working wards and A&E is not the reality.

Went out with a nurse once upon a time..She was a CNM 2.
All her days were taken up with paper work,staff rostering and the like.

Always seemed a waste of a very qualified nurse to be doing such work instead of actual traditional nursing.

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

Nurse should not be paid based on sentiment, the rest of the post is based on begrudgery. Who works a 48 hour week?

The entire construction sector you ignoramus. Which I can tell you pays their workers a hell of a lot less than nurses, works them a hell of a lot harder and lays off employees VERY regularly.



Pre covid19 numbers nearing 200,000 directly employed. Thats a whole lot of workers going on the dole in less than 2 weeks when their forced annual leave runs out.


We'll have a re-run of this thread soon enough as public sector workers wont want to mention how they still get paid, still get bonuses, top ups & "agreed increments" as the tax take is reduced to zero and the country faces bankruptcy AGAIN.

pinkyeye

Everyone here is ignoring the HCA's though. I know for a fact there are a huge amount of them on minimum wage whilst they do ALL the dirty work, changing adult nappies, showering people, cleaning up the bodies after death etc. etc.

They're the people that deserve huge increases. They often have to retire early due to back and other injuries from the physical nature of their work.

Nurses work hard too but they're paid plenty for it. They don't need any more money.

In a nursing home for example at night time, there will be 1 nurse and 2 healthcare assistants to about 25 residents. The 2 HCA's do all the personal care for those residents and the nurse does the medications, temperature and blood pressure checks etc. Who deserves a raise there?

khalessi

HOpe this includes admin staff as my sister is admin dealing face to face with patients everyday and was given out to for wearing a mask as it scares the patients despite the fact the med and nusrsing staff were wearing them

purifol0

Correct Pinkyeye. Many are still of the believe that nurses do the unpleasant work but the HCA's do that plus the heavy lifting regarding moving patients. Nurses are generally over qualified, but their union doesnt want non nurses doing anything even remotely skilled so they make sure its extremely difficult for HCA's to train up. This is what people mean when they talk about "restrictive work practices" within the HSE. Basically a turf war over easy jobs and money fought by the unions. Not good for patients or the public purse.

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

The entire construction sector you ignoramus. Which I can tell you pays their workers a hell of a lot less than nurses, works them a hell of a lot harder and lays off employees VERY regularly.



Pre covid19 numbers nearing 200,000 directly employed. Thats a whole lot of workers going on the dole in less than 2 weeks when their forced annual leave runs out.


We'll have a re-run of this thread soon enough as public sector workers wont want to mention how they still get paid, still get bonuses, top ups & "agreed increments" as the tax take is reduced to zero and the country faces bankruptcy AGAIN.

This is issue upsetting you a lot for some reason but taking you ire and anger out at nurses who are only one part of the health services is not going to help.

My husband works in the construction industry and works a 37.5 hour a weeks, he is working from home at the moment got let go in the last turn down commuted to London weekley, had to use money from his pension to live, so yes I do know what i am talking about.

Strangley enough he did not end up ranting about how much nurses are paid.

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

Correct Pinkyeye. Many are still of the believe that nurses do the unpleasant work but the HCA's do that plus the heavy lifting regarding moving patients. Nurses are generally over qualified, but their union doesnt want non nurses doing anything even remotely skilled so they make sure its extremely difficult for HCA's to train up. This is what people mean when they talk about "restrictive work practices" within the HSE. Basically a turf war over easy jobs and money fought by the unions. Not good for patients or the public purse.

Just as aside, not in Ireland but nurses and doctors have died of Covid 19

Dorakman

mariaalice wrote: »

Nurse should not be paid based on sentiment, the rest of the post is based on begrudgery. Who works a 48 hour week?

I work 48+ a week. It’s not uncommon.

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

This is issue upsetting you a lot for some reason but taking you ire and anger out at nurses who are only one part of the health services is not going to help.

My husband works in the construction industry and works a 37.5 hour a weeks, he is working from home at the moment got let go in the last turn down commuted to London weekley, had to use money from his pension, so yes I do know what i am talking about.

I'm "upset" at the lies being trotted out by people who are set for life yes.

They claim they are low paid, I point out they're not. Its pretty simple, and Im all for a bit of robust debate.



Also fair play for having a husband on 37.5 hours in the construction sector when sites are open from 7am. What exactly does he do? Because no one in Glenveigh, Shannon Valley, Kirby group or BAM has those hours, unless you are a women working as an admin!

pinkyeye

mariaalice wrote: »

Just as aside, not in Ireland but nurses and doctors have died of Covid 19

HEALTHCARE WORKERS have died of Covid 19, that is not only nurses and doctors which is the whole point of my post and the one you quoted.

Who do you think is more likely to get the virus? The person cleaning the ****e up or the person giving out medication?

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

Just as aside, not in Ireland but nurses and doctors have died of Covid 19

Not sure how thats relevant to their claims they are low paid?

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

Not sure how thats relevant to their claims they are low paid?

Asking for more money is not the same as claiming low pay, the nurses have a good union and there is a worldwide shortage of nurses which give them the advantage its as simple as that its nothing personal.

Well paid is a piece of a string argument.

Resentment is not a great basis for a debate.

JJayoo

Nurses don't want better wages they want more clapping, so if everyone could go outside and clap like a bunch of gimps that will be great

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

Asking for more money is not the same as claiming low pay, the nurses have a good union and there is a worldwide shortage of nurses which give them the advantage its as simple as that its nothing personal.

Well paid is a piece of a string argument.

Resentment is not a great basis for a debate.

Rubbish argument and I dont appreciate the insult.


You can in fact put a price on labour, the private sector does it every single day. There is no shortage of labour when it comes to nurses in Ireland unless you reckon the 70,000 currently practicing ones are no enough. Rostering issues and weak government giving in to union demands is the reason Irelands PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE is a mess. The private one works very well, and it does so without ridiculous vested interests like porters.


The INMO is a good union if you are a nurse and a very bad one if you are a patient. Especially when they choose to go on strike and (disgracefully) shut down cancer wards or entire disability villages! Lovely people.

mariaalice

purifol0 wrote: »

Rubbish argument and I dont appreciate the insult.


You can in fact put a price on labour, the private sector does it every single day. There is no shortage of labour when it comes to nurses in Ireland unless you reckon the 70,000 currently practicing ones are no enough. Rostering issues and weak government giving in to union demands is the reason Irelands PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE is a mess. The private one works very well, and it does so without ridiculous vested interests like porters.


The INMO is a good union if you are a nurse and a very bad one if you are a patient. Especially when they choose to go on strike and (disgracefully) shut down cancer wards or entire disability villages! Lovely people.

Are nurses paid less in private hospitals in Ireland? Paitent outcome are very good in Ireland.

The vast majority of you arguments is based on resentment and come across as very unedifying.

cms88

purifol0 wrote: »

Not sure how thats relevant to their claims they are low paid?

They'll use it as a reason as to why they should get more though

cms88

purifol0 wrote: »

Rubbish argument and I dont appreciate the insult.


You can in fact put a price on labour, the private sector does it every single day. There is no shortage of labour when it comes to nurses in Ireland unless you reckon the 70,000 currently practicing ones are no enough. Rostering issues and weak government giving in to union demands is the reason Irelands PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE is a mess. The private one works very well, and it does so without ridiculous vested interests like porters.


The INMO is a good union if you are a nurse and a very bad one if you are a patient. Especially when they choose to go on strike and (disgracefully) shut down cancer wards or entire disability villages! Lovely people.

We always hear how nurses are so caring and it's a ''calling'' yet have no issues taking blood money in the Middle East. Something some were very fast to tell everyone when they went on strike

purifol0

mariaalice wrote: »

Are nurses paid less in private hospitals in Ireland? Paitent outcome are very good in Ireland.

The vast majority of you arguments is based on resentment and come across as very unedifying.

I've no idea how much private sector nurses are paid. I genuinely hope they make out like bandits considering the cost of private care.

The difference is the tax payer is not on the hook for them. They cannot bribe a govt with votes either like the INMO does and they cant shut down entire wards during a strike.

mariaalice

cms88 wrote: »

We always hear how nurses are so caring and it's a ''calling'' yet have no issues taking blood money in the Middle East. Something some were very fast to tell everyone when they went on strike

Nursing hasn't been described or thought of as a calling in about 30 years althogh you do need a certain typer of personality for it.

Its a profession, I also think there an underlying element of misogyny going on here as well, as its largley a female profession. Nobody would question QS or Civil engineer going to the middle east to work.

cms88

mariaalice wrote: »

Nursing hasn't been described or thought of as a calling in about 30 years althogh you do need a certain typer of personality for it.

Its a profession, I also think there an underlying element of misogyny going on here as well as its largley a female profession. Nobody would question QS or Civil engineer going to the middle east to work.

Yes but Civil engineers don't claim to be a ''caring profession'' do they?

And no it has nothing to do with it being a largley a female profession, as much as some try to dismiss anything being said againest it.

mariaalice

cms88 wrote: »

Yes but Civil engineers don't claim to be a ''caring profession'' do they?

And no it has nothing to do with it being a largley a female profession, as much as some try to dismiss anything being said againest it.

So caring professions not just nursing means getting treated differently that other professions?

cms88

mariaalice wrote: »

So caring professions not just nursing means getting treated differently that other professions?

What are you on about? Nurses are very quick to tell every how it's a caring professions but have no issues with going to the middle east where there are widely know and huge human rights violations