Alleged sexual harassment

Stateofyou

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I agree it's pathetic, but it happens in the vast majority of groups of people who group themselves gender-exclusively. And as you say, a private conversation is a private conversation - unless the conversation contains evidence of an actual criminal offence, friends should have carte blanche to say whatever they want in private to one another.

Well it must not have been private, if she knew about what was happening and what was being said? She's obviously aware so there must be more to it. She's going to be picked apart in this and many will cut her down for speaking out and judge her experience having never walked in her shoes, saying things like, "well it wouldn't bother me..." That's also what makes her brave. She spoke up anyway.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

She may post the email at another time, but speaking up about the email and tagging her University, again, that's not going to be a lie someone does for no reason at all. If you look at that thread, there are comments from others about similar/worse experiences at University. I hope I'm saying this for the last time - false accusations are statistically rare, and this type of behaviour and response are rife and typical.
It is brave to speak up, and it's brave to do so against other's in positions of power such as their university. If she is speaking up about her experience, then it's not a perceived anything. Only to you it is.
I literally laughed at your last sentence there! So a global movement (metoo) isn't literally proof that we live in a society in which certain behaviours have been going on, excused, and literally slapped on the hand by the justice system and wider society, if at all? Okaaaay....

No. We don't live in a rape culture. Rape is not accepted. It is in plenty of countries around the world but I am confident to say that in Ireland, we do not have a rape culture.

I see plenty of quotes on her timeline too which ascribe "mysogynist" behaviour and "sexual harassment" to behaviours which may be unpolite, but certainly not warranting discipline.

It is not necessarily brave to make an accusation on twitter without backing it up with proof that if true, is readily available.

You say that she wouldn't lie about this, I'm saying she might. That's not shaming, that's being realistic.

Raconteuse

Stateofyou wrote: »

So that's a pretty big contradiction there, is it not? You say you despise people being dismissive and suspicious of women in this regard, then you go on to say you find it highly dubious that NUIM would have sent that email/said what they did, and looked for the proof. Why would you find it highly dubious? Is that not being dismissive and suspicious?

I strongly disbelieve that a university would write such a thing.

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

No. We don't live in a rape culture. Rape is not accepted. It is in plenty of countries around the world but I am confident to say that in Ireland, we do not have a rape culture.

I see plenty of quotes on her timeline too which ascribe "mysogynist" behaviour and "sexual harassment" to behaviours which may be unpolite, but certainly not warranting discipline.

It is not necessarily brave to make an accusation on twitter without backing it up with proof that if true, is readily available.

You say that she wouldn't lie about this, I'm saying she might. That's not shaming, that's being realistic.

Brock Turner. Rape is absolutely accepted. In Ireland, the culture of harassment/assault absolutely exists. Most employers now have Dignity at workplace policies for that reason, and legislation has come in to give legal recourse. There was recently a girl who was sexually assaulted and murdered by Boy A and Boy B, remember that? I read a post on here not too long ago full of posters here in Ireland saying every single woman friend/relative they know has experienced sexual harassment and or assault in their lives. Many perpetrators never have any real consequences. The CSO has the statistics anyone with google can review, and we all know that most cases go unreported or reported many years later, because victims don't feel safe or able to speak up. Because when they do, the typical responses of shaming and blaming and physical harm are the consequences.

Stateofyou

Raconteuse wrote: »

I strongly disbelieve that a university would write such a thing.

Okay, so you despise people (like yourself) who are dismissive and suspicious of women who speak up. And then you do that very thing. Doesn't make sense to me but here we are.

Raconteuse

Rape is really not accepted here.

And the Ana Kriegel case has been met with utter disgust and anger and dismay.

People posting that every woman they know has been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted does not mean rape is accepted here.

The Brock Turner case - one case - despicable but not evidence that rape is accepted in the western world.

Exceptions are not evidence of a broad trend.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Brock Turner. Rape is absolutely accepted. In Ireland, the same culture absolutely exists. Most employers now have Dignity at workplace policies for that reason, and legislation has come in to give legal recourse. There was recently a girl who was sexually assaulted and murdered by Boy A and Boy B, remember that? I read a post on here not too long ago full of posters here in Ireland saying every single woman friend/relative they know has experienced sexual harassment and or assault in their lives. Many perpetrators never have any real consequences. The CSO has the statistics anyone with google can review, and we all know that most cases go unreported or reported many years later, because victims don't feel safe or able to speak up. Because when they do, the typical responses of shaming and blaming and physical harm are the consequences.

Apologies,. I assumed you weren't one of those people.

The horrific case of Anna and the disgust and horror of the crime is proof that this behaviour is not accepted or deemed in any way acceptable.

You mentioned there are laws to prevent people being sexually harassed. Again further proof.

If most cases go unreported, then they aren't cases. It is anecdotal.

Blaming and shaming by your definition is not believing something without proof. You say that as if it is a bad thing. I do not think it is.

Do I think every woman is lying when they speak of a sexual assault? Not in any way. But do I believe every woman just because they say so? Again absolutely not.

But your lovely inference that people not believing the "victim" based on their say-so is proof of rape culture, is weak at best and insidious at worst.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Okay, so you despise people (like yourself) who are dismissive and suspicious of women who speak up. And then you do that very thing. Doesn't make sense to me but here we are.

Try reading his/her post again.

Raconteuse

Stateofyou wrote: »

Okay, so you despise people (like yourself) who are dismissive and suspicious of women who speak up. And then you do that very thing. Doesn't make sense to me but here we are.

I am not dismissing her claiming she has been sexually harassed - I am suspicious of what she claims NUIM wrote to her though. And I dislike when people use social media in that way - and try to sully an organisation's name without evidence, particularly for something so serious.

hatrickpatrick

Stateofyou wrote: »

Well it must not have been private, if she knew about what was happening and what was being said? She's obviously aware so there must be more to it.

You do realise people can screenshot group chats, right? And even if it wasn't private, unless it was persistent after she'd asked for it to stop then it wouldn't be harassment and it certainly wouldn't be assault. Equating lewd comments with assault is one of the biggest blunders the #metoo movement has made, IMO, Nobody equates insults with physical assault, why should sexual remarks be equated with sexual assault?

She's obviously aware so there must be more to it. She's going to be picked apart in this and many will cut her down for speaking out and judge her experience having never walked in her shoes, saying things like, "well it wouldn't bother me..." That's also what makes her brave. She spoke up anyway.

She publicly shamed people who have never been found guilty of anything. The tweet was deleted but it can very much be presumed from the context of the surrounding tweets that the "evidence" she provided was a screenshot of a group chat of which she was not a member. So unless the messages actually detailed something done to her outside the group chat, they weren't something anyone should be getting in trouble for anyway.

Just to make it clear: I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for non-consensual sexual activity. Equating words somebody finds offensive with being touched without consent, however, is something which I find ludicrous (lewdicrous?) and I bitterly resent the fact that this is being normalised without question. People should have the right to say anything they like in private and that should be the end of it.

Raconteuse

Deleted User wrote: »

Try reading his post again.

Her.

As a woman I think it's absurd to view the western world as having a rape culture.

Raconteuse

Raconteuse wrote: »

Her.

As a woman I think it's absurd to view the western world as having a rape culture.

You caught me before the sneaky ninja edit. I thought I got away with it.

My apologies. The worst thing was I knew your sex!!! Ugh.

Stateofyou

Raconteuse wrote: »

Rape is really not accepted here.

And the Ana Kriegel case has been met with utter disgust and anger and dismay.

People posting that every woman they know has been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted does not mean rape is accepted here.

The Brock Turner case - one case - despicable but not evidence that rape is accepted in the western world.

Exceptions are not evidence of a broad trend.

Yes it was met with utter disgust and anger, etc. But there are boys growing up here who think it's okay to do things like this. To send dic* pics, to film sexual acts at concerts, there's no end to it. Boys and men also experience sexual harassment and assault. And Hello, the Catholic Church, anyone?
Broaden that back up from narrowing it down to rape being accepted here. It's the broader acceptability of sexual harassment and assault that's been allowed to go on, to be swept under the rug, to be trivialised as "just a joke," or good fun. Again, the metoo movement is global and Ireland is not untouched by that. We are not exceptional in that regard, the broad trend as you put it is very much alive here. The gov't has put out ad campaigns ffs. People I know personally who have been impacted: My mother. My sister. My wife. Her friends and family too. My cousin. Countless friends... who all have echo'd what I read on boards on that post not too long ago-they and most people they know have been affected too.

Again, workplace policies and legislation would also show that it's a problem here too, and there are things being done about it.

Raconteuse

The Catholic church is constantly torn to shreds over the abuse.

I find it insulting to the men in my life to view this culture as one which is accepting of rape.

Stateofyou

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

IMO, Nobody equates insults with physical assault, why should sexual remarks be equated with sexual assault?


Just to make it clear: I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for non-consensual sexual activity. Equating words somebody finds offensive with being touched without consent, however, is something which I find ludicrous (lewdicrous?) and I bitterly resent the fact that this is being normalised without question. People should have the right to say anything they like in private and that should be the end of it.

There's a spectrum of unacceptable behaviour, no one is equating anything? There are varying levels of severity and therefore, reactions or consequences. Any workplace policy or legislation I've read that describes unacceptable behaviour in regards to sexual harassment specifically says that it's the victim who decides what is unacceptable or offensive (which includes looks, gestures, words, etc). Someone would find it very difficult to defend their position in a sexual harassment allegation by saying well I have a right to say whatever I want.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion lads, its time for the leaba. Good sleep is very important these days!

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Yes it was met with utter disgust and anger, etc. But there are boys growing up here who think it's okay to do things like this.

Again, workplace policies and legislation would also show that it's a problem here too, and there are things being done about it.

There are people in Ireland who murder their parents. Do we live in a parental murder culture? Bizarre logic you are using to conflate the two.

So you are saying now that because laws are in place to ensure it doesn't happen, that's proof that it is accepted in our culture?

Or in your head does rape culture mean that some people are evil rapists and happen to live amongst us? Because if that is your definition, then yes ok.

My workplace also has terms about confidentiality and working for a competitor in my contract. Is that because we live in an espionage society?

hatrickpatrick

Stateofyou wrote: »

There's a spectrum of unacceptable behaviour, no one is equating anything? There are varying levels of severity and therefore, reactions or consequences. Any workplace policy or legislation I've read that describes unacceptable behaviour in regards to sexual harassment specifically says that it's the victim who decides what is unacceptable or offensive (which includes looks, gestures, words, etc). Someone would find it very difficult to defend their position in a sexual harassment allegation by saying well I have a right to say whatever I want.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion lads, its time for the leaba. Good sleep is very important these days!

I'm aware of the paradigm, I'm merely stating that I don't agree with it. Looks, gestures, words etc are not assault and only barely qualify as harassment if they're persistent and the person on the receiving end has made it known that they make that person uncomfortable. But again that's just my view.

Strumms

bubblypop wrote: »

Sexual harassment is not a crime.
Why would Gardai be involved?

It's up to the workplace, university etc to investigate a claim of sexual harassment

Are you sure about sexual harassment not being a crime ? I genuinely hadn’t an idea, I presumed it was but from some research I have confirmed it is. Pointless the girl shooting her mouth off about being sexually harassed and criticizing her college and their inaction yet she herself has done little or certainly not enough regarding following the correct process of complaining.

If it’s me, if I’m the victim of a crime in college or my workplace or sports team iim going to the college or managers and Gardai. The college people will sure have their ideas focused with a couple of detectives knocking asking for cctv etc.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Are you sure about sexual harassment not being a crime ? I genuinely hadn’t an idea, I presumed it was but from some research I have confirmed it is. Pointless the girl shooting her mouth off about being sexually harassed and criticizing her college and their inaction yet she herself has done little or certainly not enough regarding following the correct process of complaining.

If it’s me, if I’m the victim of a crime in college or my workplace or sports team iim going to the college or managers and Gardai. The college people will sure have their ideas focused with a couple of detectives knocking asking for cctv etc.

No, sexual harassment is not a crime.
Sexual assault is a crime.
If you are the victim of sexual harassment in the workplace or university or wherever, then you bring it to the authorities there.
Nothing to do with gardai

As you say, if you are the victim of a crime, then yes, absolutely bring it to the Gardai. Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a crime.

Strumms

bubblypop wrote: »

No, sexual harassment is not a crime.
Sexual assault is a crime.
If you are the victim of sexual harassment in the workplace or university or wherever, then you bring it to the authorities there.
Nothing to do with gardai

As you say, if you are the victim of a crime, then yes, absolutely bring it to the Gardai. Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a crime.

From the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission..


Under the Employment Equality Acts 1998-2015, sexual harassment and harassment of an employee (including agency workers and trainees) in the workplace are against the law. This includes sexual harassment and harassment by:

co-workers
the employer
clients, customers or other business contacts of the employer, including anyone the employer could reasonably expect the worker to come into contact with.

bigpink

Whats all this he/she us/them all these young irish tweeters have in their bios

bigpink

bigpink wrote: »

Whats all this he/she us/them all these young irish tweeters have in their bios

It's to let you know how to address them in case you "misgendered" them according to how they identified that particular day.

freshpopcorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's to let you know how to address them in case you "misgendered" them according to how they identified that particular day.

It’s at times like this I’m so happy to be in late twenties and going grey!

Ken.

Mod- Moved to CA. Read the charter.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

From the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission..


Under the Employment Equality Acts 1998-2015, sexual harassment and harassment of an employee (including agency workers and trainees) in the workplace are against the law. This includes sexual harassment and harassment by:

co-workers
the employer
clients, customers or other business contacts of the employer, including anyone the employer could reasonably expect the worker to come into contact with.

You realise that not all laws are CRIMINAL LAWS? There's civil law as well

Gardai deal with Criminal matters primarily.

Omackeral

Stateofyou wrote: »

Rape is absolutely accepted. In Ireland, the culture of harassment/assault absolutely exists. Most employers now have Dignity at workplace policies for that reason, and legislation has come in to give legal recourse.

Right, first things first, rape is not “absolutely accepted” whatsoever. It’s one of the most universally despised crimes there is. Why do you think that prisoners require their own landings, nay prisons, to themselves? It’s because they’re despised. They’re in danger of being seriously assaulted on sight for their transgressions. No other category of criminal is such a target on their back. So prisoners, the so-called indecent of society, deem rapists and sex offenders to be the lowest of the low. It’s not accepted. Not in the slightest.

The fact there are dignity at work programmes rolled out in jobs shows the opposite of what you’re trying to prove. If we lived in an alll encompassing rape culture where it was accepted, there’d be no such initiatives. It would be accepted as status quo by establishments. It’s not, it’s reviled.

Some places use actual rape as a bloody means of punishment. There are backwards sh*tholes that possibly could be described as having or being “rape culture”. Ireland is not one of them.

Raconteuse

Raconteuse wrote: »

I strongly disbelieve that a university would write such a thing.

I'm not. Kinda. There's a lot of pressure on universities to provide safe environments, and many universities are trying to follow the US style of policing students regarding behavior in any way related to harassment. Evidence isn't entirely needed with many faculties (who may be connected to this person), so there could be internal pressure to police students.

At the same time though, I can't believe that they would put it into an email. A phone call, or a personal visit? Sure.. but an email is so impersonal.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

There's a spectrum of unacceptable behaviour, no one is equating anything? There are varying levels of severity and therefore, reactions or consequences. Any workplace policy or legislation I've read that describes unacceptable behaviour in regards to sexual harassment specifically says that it's the victim who decides what is unacceptable or offensive (which includes looks, gestures, words, etc). Someone would find it very difficult to defend their position in a sexual harassment allegation by saying well I have a right to say whatever I want.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion lads, its time for the leaba. Good sleep is very important these days!

Whereas most, if not all of the workplace policies regarding sexual harassment claims, say that it is the review panel that decides whether the claim is valid or not. A victim is only a victim when they're proven to be so. There are too many claims which are made due to dodgy circumstances such as past relationships, workplace tensions, etc. The person making the claim can identify something as being harassment, but that doesn't make it applicable. Generally speaking, any decent workplace policy will have guidelines as to what harassment (of any kind) entails... and the steps to deal with it.

Unless, of course, HR is dominant within the organisation, in which case, a sexual harassment claim will be a witch hunt, with a person being guilty until proven innocent.

A person doesn't have the right to say whatever they want in a workplace... however, that person can provide context, whereas the claimant might be removing the context. The aspect of private conversations where the two people made every effort to not speak in public, but were overheard by the claimant, is an issue worth considering. Same with phone calls. Privacy is important, whereas if it's a public conversation then, every employee would be expected to speak within the spirit of the workplace policy. (Yes, I've been a manager, and worked with HR in drawing up policies. I've also been on harassment panels hearing cases within three different companies)

However, the issue with public conversations outside of a workplace, is that people do have the right to say whatever they wish apart from speech with the aim of inciting violence.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

However, the issue with public conversations outside of a workplace, is that people do have the right to say whatever they wish apart from speech with the aim of inciting violence.

Incitement to hatred
Threats to kill or injure
Threatening words
Abusive words
Insulting words
Libelous words
Demands with menace
Aggressive begging

Probable more that I'm just not remembering. Actually a lot you can't say in public

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Incitement to hatred
Threats to kill or injure
Threatening words
Abusive words
Insulting words
Libelous words
Demands with menace
Aggressive begging

Probable more that I'm just not remembering. Actually a lot you can't say in public

A lot of that is subject to abuse. Like hate crimes, it's impossible to police insulting words as it's subjective, depends on context, audience and intent.

For example, "that girl has a big arse". Is that offensive, insulting, abusive, descriptive, complimentary, personal opinion?

Should it be not allowed to say in public if the subject feels so?