American response

drunkmonkey

MrStuffins wrote: »

That's strange because.........

Ah I went an looked it up for you, turns out I guessed too high.:rolleyes:

MrStuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ah I went an looked it up for you, turns out I guessed too high.:rolleyes:

Right, so what was the answer to this question then?

Lumen wrote: »

How many first doses had they done when they lifted the mask mandates?

Lower than 10%?

Ash.J.Williams

The canelo Saunders fight in Texas (record attendance at an indoor boxing event 77k) must have generated a few cases

joseywhales

In hindsight, I was happy I stayed in the us for the duration of this pandemic. I am not in a vulnerable group which is key. I never caught the virus that I'm aware of. The restrictions were always mild, I've been enjoying restraunts for over a year. I have flown for vacations in Utah and new Orleans during the pandemic. I have been to Ireland and back, early in the pandemic. The vaccines were distributed quickly, I was fully vaccinated by may as a 34 year old. Now my county has a 70% vaccination rate, my state #1 or #2 in the country. Everything is open, they have dropped mask and social distance mandate. Overall I think I experienced the least disruption and most freedom I could have hoped for from a pandemic. The only thing that annoys me now are those who refuse to vaccinate but that's the price of freedom of choice I guess.

Ash.J.Williams

joseywhales wrote: »

In hindsight, I was happy I stayed in the us for the duration of this pandemic. I am not in a vulnerable group which is key. I never caught the virus that I'm aware of. The restrictions were always mild, I've been enjoying restraunts for over a year. I have flown for vacations in Utah and new Orleans during the pandemic. I have been to Ireland and back, early in the pandemic. The vaccines were distributed quickly, I was fully vaccinated by may as a 34 year old. Now my county has a 70% vaccination rate, my state #1 or #2 in the country. Everything is open, they have dropped mask and social distance mandate. Overall I think I experienced the least disruption and most freedom I could have hoped for from a pandemic. The only thing that annoys me now are those who refuse to vaccinate but that's the price of freedom of choice I guess.

That’s quite impressive, there were a lot of deaths but if you’re a foreigner in a non critical age demographic that wouldn’t bother you

NSAman

joseywhales wrote: »

In hindsight, I was happy I stayed in the us for the duration of this pandemic. I am not in a vulnerable group which is key. I never caught the virus that I'm aware of. The restrictions were always mild, I've been enjoying restraunts for over a year. I have flown for vacations in Utah and new Orleans during the pandemic. I have been to Ireland and back, early in the pandemic. The vaccines were distributed quickly, I was fully vaccinated by may as a 34 year old. Now my county has a 70% vaccination rate, my state #1 or #2 in the country. Everything is open, they have dropped mask and social distance mandate. Overall I think I experienced the least disruption and most freedom I could have hoped for from a pandemic. The only thing that annoys me now are those who refuse to vaccinate but that's the price of freedom of choice I guess.

Similar situation to you. Still in the states, my county has one of the highest vaccination rates in the US. Very few deaths here and no infections here for weeks now (maybe one I think). Everything is back to normal here.

Looking at home, I am wondering what the hell is actually going on.. for a country that everyone I know is staying at home since the beginning, it seems that authority is keeping people down completely. Speaking to family, they just seem bemused by the lack of a proper plan. I know vaccines are still scarce, but sheezzz… they should have a comprehensive plan at least.

salmocab

NSAman wrote: »

Similar situation to you. Still in the states, my county has one of the highest vaccination rates in the US. Very few deaths here and no infections here for weeks now (maybe one I think). Everything is back to normal here.

Looking at home, I am wondering what the hell is actually going on.. for a country that everyone I know is staying at home since the beginning, it seems that authority is keeping people down completely. Speaking to family, they just seem bemused by the lack of a proper plan. I know vaccines are still scarce, but sheezzz… they should have a comprehensive plan at least.

Is this not a very narrow view though? Living in a country that meant people were twice as likely to die of something and because things are returning to normality quicker and then wondering what the country that kept its citizens safer despite not having access to the vaccine as quick as the place that let more people die seems like a strange standpoint. Nowhere did this perfect but all in I’m glad I spent the time in Ireland over America.

ceadaoin.

joseywhales wrote: »

In hindsight, I was happy I stayed in the us for the duration of this pandemic. I am not in a vulnerable group which is key. I never caught the virus that I'm aware of. The restrictions were always mild, I've been enjoying restraunts for over a year. I have flown for vacations in Utah and new Orleans during the pandemic. I have been to Ireland and back, early in the pandemic. The vaccines were distributed quickly, I was fully vaccinated by may as a 34 year old. Now my county has a 70% vaccination rate, my state #1 or #2 in the country. Everything is open, they have dropped mask and social distance mandate. Overall I think I experienced the least disruption and most freedom I could have hoped for from a pandemic. The only thing that annoys me now are those who refuse to vaccinate but that's the price of freedom of choice I guess.

Same. Been pretty much normal where I am too since last May. My child finished the school year with zero interruptions or closures due to covid infections because there weren't any (private school so she had the whole year in person)

Now that vaccines are going well we are dropping all restrictions tomorrow. Off on vacation later in the week. Pity I can't go home to ireland for a visit though or they can't come here

All in all, the US didn't fare too badly in comparison to other places, despite what people seem to think. Not even in the top 10 in cases or deaths per capita.

NSAman

salmocab wrote: »

Is this not a very narrow view though? Living in a country that meant people were twice as likely to die of something and because things are returning to normality quicker and then wondering what the country that kept its citizens safer despite not having access to the vaccine as quick as the place that let more people die seems like a strange standpoint. Nowhere did this perfect but all in I’m glad I spent the time in Ireland over America.

Not at all, where I live people took the precautions. Stayed at home, we had in total less than 1000 cases in the whole county. I think less than 30 deaths. Most of which were early on and older people who had travelled.

Last summer outside dining was everywhere, people didn’t loose their livelihoods, shops had click and collect saving huge numbers of jobs. It all worked.

Since last January, very little infections.

You do realise that some cities in the US have populations bigger than Ireland. Not to mention it’s a massive country? The majority of people where I live self isolated, took turns shopping (hours) kept apart and did their part. Hence, low rates of infection, low death rates and back open again.

I still think that Ireland should have been looking outside the box and the EU for vaccines, the EU approach is a disaster. Roll up to the local pharmacy here and get your vaccine. Oodles of it around, not standing waiting for someone to ship in enough for 6000 people in a country.

Lumen

What countries like the US and Sweden have shown is that the differences between medium and weak public health measures, or well executed and badly executed policy, doesn't have that great an effect over the course of the whole pandemic.

This is partly because of the fragility of maintaining a large susceptible population - you can do really well for a long time, then you drop your guard and a huge wave rips through all those people you've protected. Like walking a long tightrope.

It's also because there isn't that great a difference in mass behavioural effect between saying "please do this thing" and "you must do this thing". Either way the burden of compliance is carried by the cautious and negated by the incautious. The virus doesn't know about fixed penalty notices.

If you really want to crush an epidemic within a pandemic without vaccines, you need very strong public health measures executed flawlessly, and a compliant population. Ireland's measures weren't strong enough or well executed enough, and the population isn't universally compliant enough to make them work. We do also have some major geopolitical disadvantages - Brexit and Covid running concurrently was a disaster, and even without Brexit, imposing a hard border across the island would have been politically and practically very difficult.

Detail aside, in the final analysis it comes down to the value of life versus certain freedoms. What are thousands of lives worth? I don't know. But on the flip side, the cost of prioritising personal responsibility over punitive measures in the US and Sweden seems to have been fairly modest. They didn't suffer 10x the deaths we did, it was much less than 2x, and even that is a multiple of a very small fraction, around 1 in 1000 of the population.

ceadaoin.

Imo it's not about prioritising freedom over lives or whatever other nonsense. You cannot control a virus. End of. "Let it rip", lockdown, whatever. The end result is the same. The choice is stretch it out over years or get it over with. I remember posting on this thread last year that the US would be over this before many other places and it seems that was right. The healthcare system here was well able to cope and that's what made all the difference. Sorry but 50 people in ICU in ireland crippling the healthcare system and needing to shut the whole country down is pathetic.

Call me Al

It's quite interesting to see how history is being rewritten by some here. It's almost like the overwhelmed hospitals, having to turn away patients, never happened last year.
Meanwhile, here's the USA, number 15 on the world deaths rate per million. Almost 600,000 people.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Thank god for vaccinations.

ceadaoin.

Call me Al wrote: »

It's quite interesting to see how history is being rewritten by some here. It's almost like the overwhelmed hospitals, having to turn away patients, never happened last year.
Meanwhile, here's the USA, number 15 on the world deaths rate per million. Almost 600,000 people.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Thank god for vaccinations.

Well for most in the US these overwhelmed hospitals never actually happened. Not even in New York. Simple as. Its not rewriting history because it didn't happen.

Professor Moriarty

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well for most in the US these overwhelmed hospitals never actually happened. Not even in New York. Simple as. Its not rewriting history because it didn't happen.

New York actually needed an army field hospital to cope with the surge last year. It treated 1095 patients. From this article:

"In many parts of the U.S., hospitals were able to expand their capacity to keep up with the surge of coronavirus patients. But in New York, hospitals were overwhelmed, and local officials pleaded with the public to save hospital beds for people who needed them most."

Christy42

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Imo it's not about prioritising freedom over lives or whatever other nonsense. You cannot control a virus. End of. "Let it rip", lockdown, whatever. The end result is the same. The choice is stretch it out over years or get it over with. I remember posting on this thread last year that the US would be over this before many other places and it seems that was right. The healthcare system here was well able to cope and that's what made all the difference. Sorry but 50 people in ICU in ireland crippling the healthcare system and needing to shut the whole country down is pathetic.

And yet in spite of it not being controllable we controlled it far better than the US or Sweden did. Sweden does not have a far worse health care system than its neighbours. The difference was in their response.

The US is nearly over this due to their efficiency in terms of getting out vaccines which has little do to with letting it rip (though it should be commended in its own right).

Lumen

Christy42 wrote: »

The US is nearly over this due to their efficiency in terms of getting out vaccines which has little do to with letting it rip (though it should be commended in its own right).

The faster vaccine rollouts haven't made much difference to overall mortality, they've just allowed faster reopening.

Call me Al

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well for most in the US these overwhelmed hospitals never actually happened. Not even in New York. Simple as. Its not rewriting history because it didn't happen.

But it did happen.
33million confirmed cases.
Almost 600,000 dead.
So far..
The nature of the US epidemic, like in many countries, was that they had rolling outbreaks over the country, and states at different levels at different times.
This went on for months.
Hopefully the vaccine rate continues on an upward trajectory to balance out all the numpties that just won't.

ceadaoin.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

New York actually needed an army field hospital to cope with the surge last year. It treated 1095 patients. From this article:

"In many parts of the U.S., hospitals were able to expand their capacity to keep up with the surge of coronavirus patients. But in New York, hospitals were overwhelmed, and local officials pleaded with the public to save hospital beds for people who needed them most."

Nope. The field hospital treated 79 covid patients. Actual hospitals were never overwhelmed, even cuomo said it..

Speaking at a briefing to reporters, Cuomo said that new cases had leveled off at a “manageable” 2,000 a day. “The health care situation has stabilized, the fear of overwhelming the healthcare system has not happened,” he said.

Remember the hospital ship too? Wasn't needed

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/52m-field-hospital-in-new-york-treated-only-79-covid-19-patients.html

Call me Al

Not overwhelmed at all

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-overwhelmed-hospitals-strain-staff-and-hope-to-avoid-rationing-care1/

No siree...

ceadaoin.

Call me Al wrote: »

Not overwhelmed at all

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-overwhelmed-hospitals-strain-staff-and-hope-to-avoid-rationing-care1/

No siree...

Nope. "Stretched thin" is not overwhelmed. There was never a point where they could not provide care in the US. And that's a fact. California weren't even close to being overwhelmed even at their peak. The numbers they put out weren't an accurate representation of reality. And right after that article was published, cases in the US started to dramatically drop off.

"If a region is utilizing more than 30% of its ICU beds for COVID-19 positive patients, then its available ICU capacity is reduced by 0.5% for each 1% over the 30% threshold. This is done to preserve the capacity of the ICU to also treat non-COVID-19 conditions.”

The experience of many people living in the US is quite far removed from the posts on here.

Professor Moriarty

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Nope. The field hospital treated 79 covid patients. Actual hospitals were never overwhelmed, even cuomo said it.. Remember the hospital ship too? Wasn't needed

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/52m-field-hospital-in-new-york-treated-only-79-covid-19-patients.html

If you need a field a hospital, de facto, your hospitals are overwhelmed. The 1095 figure comes from a Doctor Gonzalez who lead the emergency response at the Javits Field Hospital in NY. I'm guessing he would know what he is talking about when it comes to the number of people treated at the field hospital.


Also from the NPR article:

"The mantra was, 'Don't come to the hospital, don't go to the doctor, stay home, stay home till your lips turn blue,' " said Gershon of NYU's School of Global Public Health. "Well, we now know that was a crazy set of advice."

So they were telling seriously ill Covid patients to stay away from hospitals.

Also in relation to numbers not being ten times greater, everywhere had some form of restrictions so they likely would have been far greater if there was no global lockdown... Also I struggle to see how US deaths can be viewed as an acceptable number...

Hoboo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also in relation to numbers not being ten times greater, everywhere had some form of restrictions so they likely would have been far greater if there was no global lockdown... Also I struggle to see how US deaths can be viewed as an acceptable number...

When you're stacking bodies in containers it's never acceptable. "Overwhelmed" is how they describe it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/07/us/new-york-coronavirus-victims-refrigerated-trucks/index.html

ceadaoin.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you need a field a hospital, de facto, your hospitals are overwhelmed. The 1095 figure comes from a Doctor Gonzalez who lead the emergency response at the Javits Field Hospital in NY. I'm guessing he would know what he is talking about when it comes to the number of people treated at the field hospital.


Also from the NPR article:

"The mantra was, 'Don't come to the hospital, don't go to the doctor, stay home, stay home till your lips turn blue,' " said Gershon of NYU's School of Global Public Health. "Well, we now know that was a crazy set of advice."

So they were telling seriously ill Covid patients to stay away from hospitals.

Also from the NPR article, and literally the headline

But nearly four months into the pandemic, most of these facilities haven't treated a single patient.

And they never did. A colossal waste of money.

But whatever, I've been living my life for a year and will continue to do so. Went out for dinner tonight, not a mask in sight. It's over. I hope I can see my family soon. In the meantime, you do you. The vast majority of people in the US are done with covid.

Professor Moriarty

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Also from the NPR article, and literally the headline



And they never did. A colossal waste of money.

But whatever, I've been living my life for a year and will continue to do so. Went out for dinner tonight, not a mask in sight. It's over. I hope I can see my family soon. In the meantime, you do you. The vast majority of people in the US are done with covid.

Indeed "most" being the significant word. The fact remains that NY did actually need a field hospital. Also, their advice for Covid-19 patients to not attend hospital cost a lot of extra lives. Had those people actually gone to hospital (as they should have) the hospitals would have been even more overwhelmed.

As for it being over in the US, here's hoping.

Call me Al

The rationalisation of some is reminding me of the Monty Python "tis but a scratch" black Knight sketch..

NSAman

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed "most" being the significant word. The fact remains that NY did actually need a field hospital. Also, their advice for Covid-19 patients to not attend hospital cost a lot of extra lives. Had those people actually gone to hospital (as they should have) the hospitals would have been even more overwhelmed.

As for it being over in the US, here's hoping.

Let’s hope it’s over for all soon.

Reading back over the recent comments, one thing is clear to me: the USA is not New York.

There were many many areas that had no overwhelming of hospitals. Where I live, we have a general hospital for 18,000 people. There are 6 large hospitals within a 30 mile radius. Total population within a 30 mile radius is less than 200k people. None of these hospitals were overwhelmed.

The population of the USA is 330,000,000 (if you believe others 360,000,000) saying that 600,000 “deaths is in acceptable” that is similar to the Irish rate … no death is acceptable.

The differences between Ireland currently and the US is that the US is open and has for the most part been open (where I live). California is still closed for the most part. Many US departments are not functioning fully. People on the whole are still taking precautions, many still masking, I know myself i still use hand sanitizer.

The main difference is that people and business are allowed to carry on with life. While those that want to be cautious can do so.

It is Memorial Day today. A national Holiday. While many have travelled (6million have taken to the sky and masked) many still have yet to see family.

No country got this 100% correct. People died, as they do from many viruses. Saying one country has handled it better than another is silly. America had its crazy rules same as Ireland had its crazy rules. One thing that it has taught me, is that self reliance and following your own high level sense is vital. News media create sensational headlines and there are many that will jump on any headline.

E.g. me believing that death figures in Ireland were current and worrying myself sick for family at home, while not understanding that death figures could be up to three months old.

Lumen

NSAman wrote: »

No country got this 100% correct. People died, as they do from many viruses. Saying one country has handled it better than another is silly.

Several countries handled it well, as judged by their lack of disease and economic impact. The two are related!

Mckinsey published a piece about it, although it's a few months old at this stage.

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/healthcare-systems-and-services/our-insights/covid-19-saving-thousands-of-lives-and-trillions-in-livelihoods

Countries on the near-zero-virus path radically reduced viral spread, minimizing the chances of transmission and making it easier to control flare-ups as they occur. Leaders of those countries have built public confidence, and the public has responded by resuming economic activity, as seen in the rise of discretionary mobility to precrisis levels. The countries using the near-zero-virus strategy are likely headed for a first-row outcome—likely, scenario A3 or A4.

Countries on the balancing-act path have pursued a strategy that entails stabilizing the numbers of patients within the capacity of their healthcare systems while accepting higher virus prevalence, more frequent flare-ups, and the possibility of more economically restrictive public-health interventions. Under those circumstances, country leaders have found it more challenging to build and sustain public confidence. Discretionary mobility remains about 40 percent below precrisis levels.

Professor Moriarty

NSAman wrote: »

Let’s hope it’s over for all soon.

Reading back over the recent comments, one thing is clear to me: the USA is not New York.

There were many many areas that had no overwhelming of hospitals. Where I live, we have a general hospital for 18,000 people. There are 6 large hospitals within a 30 mile radius. Total population within a 30 mile radius is less than 200k people. None of these hospitals were overwhelmed.

The population of the USA is 330,000,000 (if you believe others 360,000,000) saying that 600,000 “deaths is in acceptable” that is similar to the Irish rate … no death is acceptable.

The differences between Ireland currently and the US is that the US is open and has for the most part been open (where I live). California is still closed for the most part. Many US departments are not functioning fully. People on the whole are still taking precautions, many still masking, I know myself i still use hand sanitizer.

The main difference is that people and business are allowed to carry on with life. While those that want to be cautious can do so.

It is Memorial Day today. A national Holiday. While many have travelled (6million have taken to the sky and masked) many still have yet to see family.

No country got this 100% correct. People died, as they do from many viruses. Saying one country has handled it better than another is silly. America had its crazy rules same as Ireland had its crazy rules. One thing that it has taught me, is that self reliance and following your own high level sense is vital. News media create sensational headlines and there are many that will jump on any headline.

E.g. me believing that death figures in Ireland were current and worrying myself sick for family at home, while not understanding that death figures could be up to three months old.

Firstly, my comments about NY were to correct an assertion by another poster. I made no comparisons whatsoever with any other state or country.

Secondly, while comparisons may not always be 100% accurate, there some realities. Hungary has the highest mortality rate in the world at 3082 per million. Its next door neighbour, Austria, has a rate of 1170. The reality is that Austria handled its response better. That's just a fact.

NSAman

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Firstly, my comments about NY were to correct an assertion by another poster. I made no comparisons whatsoever with any other state or country.

Secondly, while comparisons may not always be 100% accurate, there some realities. Hungary has the highest mortality rate in the world at 3082 per million. Its next door neighbour, Austria, has a rate of 1170. The reality is that Austria handled its response better. That's just a fact.

Absolutely agree.

Similarly New York is not the USA. Hence the comparison between Hungary and Austria is vital. Each state in the USA is the size of a European country, with different rules. While NY had higher rates of infection than say Iowa. The rules were and still are different in many states.

Larger populations mean larger chance of transmissions. Luckily I personally live in a very low population density (and I use that word in both senses of the word..:) ). Not an easy situation to be in when you are a governor of a state with cities of high density rates.