American response

Timberrrrrrrr

Blueshoe wrote: »

The rules:

When someone criticizes something a rival or opponent to Trump does it's ok because Trump did something similar

When someone defends something Trump did and brings up something a rival or opponent did it's a straw man argument.

Where have I said it's ok? I haven't even seen the Cuomo vid so I can't comment on that can I?

lord quackinton

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Where have I said it's ok? I haven't even seen the Cuomo vid so I can't comment on that can I?

Timber. As it has been posted to me many times - thank god for google. Whatever that means

MadYaker

Blueshoe wrote: »

Per capita Ireland has both more cases and deaths than the Us.

Just a stat for those per capita lovers out there.

This is a very simplistic view. If you compare how Ireland and most US states are reporting deaths it’s pretty obvious to see why that is the case. Look at excess mortality rates in the US in March and compare it to last year. You can see a huge jump which the official coronavirus numbers don’t come close to accounting for. Combine that with the lower level of testing there and the logical conclusion is that numbers are massively under reported. You think all the thousands of homeless people dying in NY and LA got tested and are in the stats? Of course they aren’t. It’s not just homeless either.

As the country opens up what do you think will happen with case numbers?

jibber5000

Carfacemandog wrote: »

Excess death rates show around 50,000 more dead than Coronavirus would explain, and if factoring in to count as we do in Ireland, as well as our far higher testing rate, it would soar even higher again (since the poster was comparing like-for-like per capita rates of the two nations).

And as I posted yesterday, states like Florida (whose governor's entire platform is that he is a complete Trump sycophant - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1YP_zZJFXs) have been firing officials who have refused to manipulate and falsify data. That's what you would expect from China or Russia, not a developed western nation.

Remember when Trump ran on being all about transparency back in 2016... what happened there?

Firing officials implies many.

They fired one official for insubordination who the MSM claimed was a top scientist. In fact she was completing a PhD in geography and had no skill set in public health, epidemiology or biology. She was fired for performance issues.

She was good at creating a website to be fair. Part of her extensive criminal history was creating a fake website which she used to sexually harrass her ex boyfriend.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cbs12.com/amp/news/local/covid-19-dashboard-designer-faces-cyber-sexual-harassment-charges-desantis-says

Using excess data is not a hard and fast rule to accurately measure how many die each year. Even saying that it is correct, your 50,000 estimate would indicate a 60% underreporting of deaths.

A study from the new York times put their figures at 17-20% excess deaths.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/opinion/coronavirus-us-deaths.amp.html

MadYaker

New York did far more testing than any other state and still underreported deaths by 20%

lord quackinton

MadYaker wrote: »

This is a very simplistic view. If you compare how Ireland and most US states are reporting deaths it’s pretty obvious to see why that is the case. Look at excess mortality rates in the US in March and compare it to last year. You can see a huge jump which the official coronavirus numbers don’t come close to accounting for. Combine that with the lower level of testing there and the logical conclusion is that numbers are massively under reported. You think all the thousands of homeless people dying in NY and LA got tested and are in the stats? Of course they aren’t. It’s not just homeless either.

As the country opens up what do you think will happen with case numbers?

thank you for posting.

i am trying to get stats on mortality rates for countries especially ireland and the UK comparing 2020 mortality rates to previous years - ideally last 5.

if we could average last 5 years and compare to this year it would be a very good indicator of deaths due to this virus.



if find it hard to get this info. can you give me a link please. thanks

jibber5000

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Yes.

Fair enough I'll take you at your word. I just think many people would be up in arms if the same thing happened in the US.

jibber5000

MadYaker wrote: »

New York did far more testing than any other state and still underreported deaths by 20%

Testing is really irrelevant to the death rates.

MadYaker

jibber5000 wrote: »

Testing is really irrelevant to the death rates.

How is it irrelevant?? People who die from coronavirus without getting tested aren’t in the stats in the US so of course it is relevant. In Ireland all suspected cases are added to the stats with or without a test. As far as I’m aware doctors here can give a presumptive diagnosis based on symptoms. That’s not happening in the US or the UK and a number of countries.

jibber5000

MadYaker wrote: »

How is it irrelevant?? People who die from coronavirus without getting tested aren’t in the stats in the US so of course it is relevant. In Ireland all suspected cases are added to the stats with or without a test. As far as I’m aware doctors here can give a presumptive diagnosis based on symptoms. That’s not happening in the US or the UK and a number of countries.

Since April 10th they are counting presumptive diagnosis in America.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/15/health/us-coronavirus-deaths-trends-wednesday/index.html

On your testing rationale, surely we were underplaying our deaths here back in March as we were testing so few people?

silverharp

lol

https://twitter.com/realChengHsieh/status/1263648160599154689

lord quackinton

i just hope the numbers show that the destruction of the worlds economy was justifiable. that would be easier for our societies to accept, because if the numbers of deaths from previous years are not drastically different to this years, yes the decision makers will be held accountable but also the cult like followers of the lockdowns will have to live with their own demons.
i hope its the former not the latter. i think it will take years for societies to heal if all this has been is hysteria. millions of jobs gone forever and millions of people left in poverty.
the handling of this virus if it turns out to have been over zealous could be what drives more countries to the extreme right. europe, south america and parts of asia have serious form on right wing ideology.
these lock downs cannot turn out to have been for nothing - i honestly believe that would be the worst outcome possible.

Christy42

lord quackinton wrote: »

i just hope the numbers show that the destruction of the worlds economy was justifiable. that would be easier for our societies to accept, because if the numbers of deaths from previous years are not drastically different to this years, yes the decision makers will be held accountable but also the cult like followers of the lockdowns will have to live with their own demons.
i hope its the former not the latter. i think it will take years for societies to heal if all this has been is hysteria. millions of jobs gone forever and millions of people left in poverty.
the handling of this virus if it turns out to have been over zealous could be what drives more countries to the extreme right. europe, south america and parts of asia have serious form on right wing ideology.
these lock downs cannot turn out to have been for nothing - i honestly believe that would be the worst outcome possible.

Theoretically how would you prove this? You can't go back in time and try out the scenario of no lock down to compare and contrast.

If deaths were similar surely that would just mean that the lock down worked? In any case many places have reported large amounts of excess deaths. Remember that you would expect excess deaths to drop under lock down due to car accidents etc. decreasing.

As an example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/almost-55000-excess-uk-deaths-during-covid-19-outbreak-says-ons


If anything it shows a more robust economy is required. We need a society where people don't have to live paycheque to paycheque.

jibber5000

Christy42 wrote: »

Theoretically how would you prove this? You can't go back in time and try out the scenario of no lock down to compare and contrast.

If deaths were similar surely that would just mean that the lock down worked? In any case many places have reported large amounts of excess deaths. Remember that you would expect excess deaths to drop under lock down due to car accidents etc. decreasing.

As an example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/almost-55000-excess-uk-deaths-during-covid-19-outbreak-says-ons


If anything it shows a more robust economy is required. We need a society where people don't have to live paycheque to paycheque.

Excess deaths could be caused by people not attending hospitals due to Coronavirus fears.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/dying-at-home-non-covid-19-hospitals-coronavirus

Christy42

jibber5000 wrote: »

Excess deaths could be caused by people not attending hospitals due to Coronavirus fears.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/dying-at-home-non-covid-19-hospitals-coronavirus

Seems unlikely. Rome had a lock down and ended up suffering little from corona virus. It ended up with negative excess deaths.

Plus 55000 is a massive amount for people not attending hospitals and incredibly unrealistic. As I said we don't get a do over so it will be impossible to definitively prove. I am sure plenty will insist that nothing actually happened and Bill Gates faked it all. Not least because the lock down is designed to minimise excess deaths in the first place.

hetuzozaho

lord quackinton wrote: »

i just hope the numbers show that the destruction of the worlds economy was justifiable. that would be easier for our societies to accept, because if the numbers of deaths from previous years are not drastically different to this years, yes the decision makers will be held accountable but also the cult like followers of the lockdowns will have to live with their own demons.

This doesn't make sense though does it? It feels like if the lockdown works and prevents loads of extra deaths then you want to investigate the lockdown? It's been a long week, maybe I'm just tired.

lord quackinton

jibber5000 wrote: »

Excess deaths could be caused by people not attending hospitals due to Coronavirus fears.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/dying-at-home-non-covid-19-hospitals-coronavirus

exactly and when deaths are recorded as compared to when they occurred is a big distinction that has to be made.
time will tell all.
its interesting because this is a defining moment in our history and there is a schism between the lock down at all costs / nanny state supporters and those who want more flexibility and personal responsibility.

when the results are in, if the big state socialist progressive side loses then they lose everything. they will not be taken seriously again.

lord quackinton

hetuzozaho wrote: »

This doesn't make sense though does it? It feels like if the lockdown works and prevents loads of extra deaths then you want to investigate the lockdown? It's been a long week, maybe I'm just tired.

rest and then think about it logically. numbers never lie.

hetuzozaho

lord quackinton wrote: »

rest and then think about it logically. numbers never lie.

Throw up the numbers

lord quackinton

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Throw up the numbers

my original post was we dont know the real numbers yet. nobody does.
when we get them we will then be able to judge peoples actions

jibber5000

Christy42 wrote: »

Seems unlikely. Rome had a lock down and ended up suffering little from corona virus. It ended up with negative excess deaths.

Plus 55000 is a massive amount for people not attending hospitals and incredibly unrealistic. As I said we don't get a do over so it will be impossible to definitively prove. I am sure plenty will insist that nothing actually happened and Bill Gates faked it all. Not least because the lock down is designed to minimise excess deaths in the first place.

How many people who died of accidents etc were included in the official figures as being Covid deaths.

They're even including gun shot deaths as being Covid if the person who died was positive.

Tell me how

lord quackinton wrote: »

i just hope the numbers show that the destruction of the worlds economy was justifiable. that would be easier for our societies to accept, because if the numbers of deaths from previous years are not drastically different to this years, yes the decision makers will be held accountable but also the cult like followers of the lockdowns will have to live with their own demons.
i hope its the former not the latter. i think it will take years for societies to heal if all this has been is hysteria. millions of jobs gone forever and millions of people left in poverty.
the handling of this virus if it turns out to have been over zealous could be what drives more countries to the extreme right. europe, south america and parts of asia have serious form on right wing ideology.
these lock downs cannot turn out to have been for nothing - i honestly believe that would be the worst outcome possible.

Irrespective of what the deaths turn out to be, what you are advocating for is a a scenario where expertise is not the loudest voice in how to prepare for any scenario. Because business and economy leaders were saying that there was no need to shut down, but they have no insight in to the actual determination of the need but are purely focused on trying to avoid their industry being impacted.

If society decides to take that approach, it will ultimately lead to much more suffering, death and ultimately the ruination of the businesses which they are so focused on protecting because the actions needed to mitigate against severe situations becoming catastrophic will not be given the opportunity to be enacted.

And this is the case with not only medical issues but also, the bigger juggernaut which is the situation relating to the environment. We need science to provide data and trends, and for all politicians to make their policies with a view on the trend and what will happen in future, not just what is an issue for today. Why the future more so than the present you may ask? Because when it comes to the climate making any action based on the current situation is pointless. It would be like trying to put your seatbelt on and slow your car down a micro-second before you collide with another vehicle. It's too late.

Carfacemandog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

This truly is one of the more blatant examples of stupidity surrounding Trump. This has already been proven not to work, and to kill people, after he went went hawking it for the company that pays to have access to him a few months ago.

Now we see this cycle repeat, as if none of that ever happened. And it will be proven to do nothing for covid while also killing people.

And in 2-4 months time, I will bet Trump will hawk it again. And this cycle will repeat... again.

It actually makes no sense whatsoever.

And surely enough, we continue the cycle as if all of this was not firmly established weeks/months ago already - "Antimalarial drug touted by President Trump is linked to increased risk of death in coronavirus patients, study says"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/22/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-study

The US media is a complete joke but for the opposite reason Trump supporters claim - they consistently give him too much credence. Just wait until July or August when he tries to hawk it again, we'll be right back at reports on "studies to see if hydroxychloroquine works or not find it might be dangerous". The stupidity is astounding.

jibber5000

Carfacemandog wrote: »

And surely enough, we continue the cycle as if all of this was not firmly established weeks/months ago already - "Antimalarial drug touted by President Trump is linked to increased risk of death in coronavirus patients, study says"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/22/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-study

The US media is a complete joke but for the opposite reason Trump supporters claim - they consistently give him too much credence. Just wait until July or August when he tries to hawk it again, we'll be right back at reports on "studies to see if hydroxychloroquine works or not find it might be dangerous". The stupidity is astounding.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/05/12/nyu-study-looks-at-hydroxychloroquine-zinc-azithromycin-combo-on-decreasing-covid-19-deaths

When Zinc is added. Neither of those are RCT's so just cool down before making a firm judgment.

riffmongous

jibber5000 wrote: »

How many people who died of accidents etc were included in the official figures as being Covid deaths.

They're even including gun shot deaths as being Covid if the person who died was positive.

What if someone who had a gunshot wound caught covid in hospital and the extra stress causes them to die when they would have recovered otherwise?

MadYaker

jibber5000 wrote: »

Since April 10th they are counting presumptive diagnosis in America.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/15/health/us-coronavirus-deaths-trends-wednesday/index.html

On your testing rationale, surely we were underplaying our deaths here back in March as we were testing so few people?

That’s only NY including presumptive cases and the CDC can only report figures that the states share with them.

lord quackinton

Tell me how wrote: »

Irrespective of what the deaths turn out to be, what you are advocating for is a a scenario where expertise is not the loudest voice in how to prepare for any scenario. Because business and economy leaders were saying that there was no need to shut down, but they have no insight in to the actual determination of the need but are purely focused on trying to avoid their industry being impacted.

If society decides to take that approach, it will ultimately lead to much more suffering, death and ultimately the ruination of the businesses which they are so focused on protecting because the actions needed to mitigate against severe situations becoming catastrophic will not be given the opportunity to be enacted.

And this is the case with not only medical issues but also, the bigger juggernaut which is the situation relating to the environment. We need science to provide data and trends, and for all politicians to make their policies with a view on the trend and what will happen in future, not just what is an issue for today. Why the future more so than the present you may ask? Because when it comes to the climate making any action based on the current situation is pointless. It would be like trying to put your seatbelt on and slow your car down a micro-second before you collide with another vehicle. It's too late.

Depends on what is more to a society
Doctors or financial professionals
Your health or wealth
We all know the answer - wealth buys you good health

Timberrrrrrrr

lord quackinton wrote: »

Depends on what is more to a society
Doctors or financial professionals
Your health or wealth
We all know the answer - wealth buys you good health

Tell that to Steve Jobs.

Guy:Incognito

jibber5000 wrote: »

Do you think the US are hiding people in mass graves? You can't just say "estimates" and then treat these estimates as gospel..

You dont hide bodies, you could just "reclassify" them as some other cause of death.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/20/florida-scientist-dr-rebekah-jones-fired-refusing-change-covid-19-data-reopen-plan

Guy:Incognito

Blueshoe wrote: »

Per capita Ireland has both more cases and deaths than the Us.

Just a stat for those per capita lovers out there.

I like the approach btw. Wait 12 hours or so while the conversation moves on and theres a good 40 or so posts built on top of the rubbish you came out with so that theres a good chance you can just not acknowledge the replies to it.




As for the Bush/Obama stuff from others. If the best argument you can make for someones actions is "but these people did this" then you have no argument.