European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

ArchXStanton

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Whatever happened that old dipso?

Last I seen the EU were holding some big pompous ceremony in his honor as he was stepping down from his position, goes to show how ridiculous that organisation is when they revere a fool

IAMAMORON

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Not just the far right either. Most of southern Italy have been looking to dump the EU for years. They are sick of their lives been ruined through the migrant crises and other issues. It is worth adding also that there are also separatist parties within Italy who would be interested in seeing more political devolvement of Italy as a whole, never mind getting out of Europe. Watch that space. Provincial nationalism is rife in southern Italy, not unlike the Basque or Catalonia on the Iberian peninsula. There are many in northern Italy who could also shrug their shoulders at such concepts.

nthclare

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

ArchXStanton

nthclare wrote: »

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

Interesting piece about "the roads"

http://www.caef.org.uk/d29tens.html#

handlemaster

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

You get what you vote for.

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Interesting piece about "the roads"

http://www.caef.org.uk/d29tens.html#

Er, it's not that interesting to be fair - I mean for one the piece is more than 20 years old and I believe the particular legislative appartus it has in its firing line has actually been defunct for about ten years now.

More to the point, have you actually looked at the complaints?
They seem to be angry that the motorway network will allowed people and goods to travel more easily because it might damage local industries that exist because people don't have access to more compeditive alternatives.
They seem to be opposed to the potential enviornmental impact, which I might have some time for, but seems utterly divorced from the present Brexiteer movement.
And they also seem to have some fairly peculiar and odd criticisms about the dangers of the UK M6 becoming a lorry only motorway (which plainly didn't happen) as well as 'rampant individualism' and 'unbridled market economy', which again, seems like a ridiculous complaint given the fairly libertarian taint of the present Brexiteer upper crust.

To be frank, I'm really not sure if anyone can make a good-faith defence of the EU if even something as mundane as maintaining and improving physical infrastucture between its member states starts being seen as some instrinsic evil.

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

It shows that the EU nations aren’t all in this together, that nations will look after own interests first.

What are you suggesting - that the EU should force solidarity?

no what I am suggesting is that you are talking gibberish:

Of course countries are not working in solidarity in this area: they specifically set up the EU so that in just this type of situation it would not happen. You are the one complaining about that sovereign countries are doing exactly what they always wanted and intended to do. So precisely why are you complaining? Should the EU be empowered to do something or should it not? Considering that the US has been far more ruthless about seizing goods destined for countries it is in international agreements with, why do you not focus your hypocritical faux complaints on them?

fash

nthclare wrote: »

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

before joining the EU/EEC, Ireland was (and was forced to be) an impoverished vassal state to the UK. The UK did what it could to ensure that. The UK joining the EEC (which allowed Ireland to follow) freed Ireland from that vassalage. Outside of the EU, that is all that awaits Ireland: impoverishment and vassalage to the UK.
Let's not forget that the UK most recently threatened to starve Ireland, prevent medical supplies from arriving and as much economic destruction as they could do if Ireland didn't submit to its demands and allow thousands of Irish to die. They were only prevented because of the power of the EU- and you want to give that up!? You think the UK will be nicer to a vulnerable Ireland all on its own?!

As regards"outsiders getting contracts to build roads"- have a look at the WTO treaties on public contracts - you might learn something (although then again...)

McGiver

RobertKK wrote:

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

This is a typical Brexiteer / europhobic schizophrenia.

The EU is at the same time an all controlling superstate yet is too weak and not doing enough. Both can't be true.
Either it's a superstate in which case it isn't weak. Or it is weak in which case it isn't a superstate.

So if you want to have a speedily acting EU then give it competencies and budget to do so.

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote:

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

Which drive? Which is country?

Rodney Bathgate

fash wrote: »

no what I am suggesting is that you are talking gibberish:

Of course countries are not working in solidarity in this area: they specifically set up the EU so that in just this type of situation it would not happen. You are the one complaining about that sovereign countries are doing exactly what they always wanted and intended to do. So precisely why are you complaining? Should the EU be empowered to do something or should it not? Considering that the US has been far more ruthless about seizing goods destined for countries it is in international agreements with, why do you not focus your hypocritical faux complaints on them?

Talk of gibberish. It shows there is no desire for further integration. Can I be any clearer?

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Yes really, the EU has its own dubious past when it comes to respecting referendums "there can be no democratic choice against the treaties" - Juncker

But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag, I certainly won't be

I appreciate your enormous efforts at lies, deception and misrepresentation:
Let's include slightly more of that quote from Juncker:

"there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties. One cannot exit the euro without leaving the EU" - said in response to the populist Greek government's fake referendum to reject the bailout terms. Let's bear in mind that not only was it the previous Greek governments that pissed away money on corruption and populism - but also refused to tax the Greek wealthy or reduce spending - who are quite numerous and extraordinarily wealthy - while also wanting to keep the benefits of the EU/Euro - but not the obligations.
So yes indeed, even if you offer a referendum that "ArchieXStanton will pay for all boardies expenses from now on - yes or no", it won't make ArchieX responsible going forward.

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Talk of gibberish. It shows there is no desire for further integration. Can I be any clearer?

It was in the very earliest treaties and yet there were a vast number of treaties of further integration since.

So what you've said now is - let's be charitable - double gibberish.

Rodney Bathgate

fash wrote: »

It was in the very earliest treaties and yet there were a vast number of treaties of further integration since.

So what you've said now is - let's be charitable - double gibberish.

Spot on, you are talking double gibberish. Let’s see how things pan out for your beloved experiment.

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

I appreciate your enormous efforts at lies, deception and misrepresentation:
Let's include slightly more of that quote from Juncker:

"there can be no democratic choice against the European treaties. One cannot exit the euro without leaving the EU" - said in response to the populist Greek government's fake referendum to reject the bailout terms. Let's bear in mind that not only was it the previous Greek governments that pissed away money on corruption and populism - but also refused to tax the Greek wealthy or reduce spending - who are quite numerous and extraordinarily wealthy - while also wanting to keep the benefits of the EU/Euro - but not the obligations.
So yes indeed, even if you offer a referendum that "ArchieXStanton will pay for all boardies expenses from now on - yes or no", it won't make ArchieX responsible going forward.

Lies? Nice and Lisbon treaties here and the Dutch and French votes on an eu constitution that were ignored only to have it brought in through the backdoor... What's laughable is the EU masquerades as some gold standard of democracy, you'd probably want to look up a few of Junckers most notable quotes, a democrat he is not...

nthclare

fash wrote: »

before joining the EU/EEC, Ireland was (and was forced to be) an impoverished vassal state to the UK. The UK did what it could to ensure that. The UK joining the EEC (which allowed Ireland to follow) freed Ireland from that vassalage. Outside of the EU, that is all that awaits Ireland: impoverishment and vassalage to the UK.
Let's not forget that the UK most recently threatened to starve Ireland, prevent medical supplies from arriving and as much economic destruction as they could do if Ireland didn't submit to its demands and allow thousands of Irish to die. They were only prevented because of the power of the EU- and you want to give that up!? You think the UK will be nicer to a vulnerable Ireland all on its own?!

As regards"outsiders getting contracts to build roads"- have a look at the WTO treaties on public contracts - you might learn something (although then again...)

Here we go, a history lesson, a slap on the wrist and and a suggestion.

I never said we should join the Uk, point out where in my post I suggested that?

More in common could mean a lot of things.

So you're holding onto the whole famine thing and world wars and reading my post and then getting triggered into a reaction rather than a response.

Come on man, I wasn't born yesterday and maybe you should have read my post rather than translate it to how you want to read it.

A vulnerable Ireland on its own, for the love of Jehova maybe you should get outside and enjoy the sunshine rather than be stuck in darkness resenting the past, and thinking the bogey man is only asleep and when he wakes up he's heading across the Irish sea.

Rodney Bathgate

nthclare wrote: »

Here we go, a history lesson, a slap on the wrist and and a suggestion.

I never said we should join the Uk, point out where in my post I suggested that?

More in common could mean a lot of things.

So you're holding onto the whole famine thing and world wars and reading my post and then getting triggered into a reaction rather than a response.

Come on man, I wasn't born yesterday and maybe you should have read my post rather than translate it to how you want to read it.

A vulnerable Ireland on its own, for the love of Jehova maybe you should get outside and enjoy the sunshine rather than be stuck in darkness resenting the past, and thinking the bogey man is only asleep and when he wakes up he's heading across the Irish sea.

You’ll be accused of supporting Russia / China / US (take your pick) any time now.

Europhiles don’t seem to grasp that there could possibly be people in europe that aren’t in awe of the EU like they are. It is almost like a mental illness, their inability to tolerate any form of dissent or grasp that dissent even exists. Otherwise why would someone be on boards.ie on a bank holiday defending the EU on a meaningless thread that very few people are looking at? Very strange behaviour.

sameoldname

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

You’ll be accused of supporting Russia / China / US (take your pick) any time now.

Europhiles don’t seem to grasp that there could possibly be people in europe that aren’t in awe of the EU like they are. It is almost like a mental illness, their inability to tolerate any form of dissent or grasp that dissent even exists. Otherwise why would someone be on boards.ie on a bank holiday defending the EU on a meaningless thread that very few people are looking at? Very strange behaviour.

Coming from someone with 500 posts in 20 days?

I think people don't have a problem with "dissent" so much as pig headed ignorance when it comes to the EU. If you're going to complain about it at least do some research first.

declanflynn

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Lies? Nice and Lisbon treaties here and the Dutch and French votes on an eu constitution that were ignored only to have it brought in through the backdoor... What's laughable is the EU masquerades as some gold standard of democracy, you'd probably want to look up a few of Junckers most notable quotes, a democrat he is not...

The UK will break up within 10 years, The EU will add 7 to 9 new members in that time, cant think of anyone wanting to join the uk

Rodney Bathgate

sameoldname wrote: »

Coming from someone with 500 posts in 20 days?

I think people don't have a problem with "dissent" so much as pig headed ignorance when it comes to the EU. If you're going to complain about it at least do some research first.

Care you explain why it is so great?

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Lies? Nice and Lisbon treaties here

Oh please-
The ones Ireland begged the EU to allow it to rerun ? The Nice treaty originally won (and proven to have been won) on the basis of absurd lies proven to be funded by American neo-cons intent on weakening the EU such as the EU would bring in abortion? Which Ireland then renegotiated and got (entirely unnecessary) guarantees from the EU in relation to? And the abortion for which Ireland voted for itself anyway?
So what is it- were they the same treaties- in which case the Irish population originally voted based on obvious lies or were they not- in which case Ireland renegotiated and entirely different treaties were put to the people.

Let's compare the referendums in Ireland to the nonsense in the UK - or anywhere else. What is the shining beacon you want Ireland to follow? Your masters in Russia, the UK or Trump?

and the Dutch and French votes on an eu constitution that were ignored only to have it brought in through the backdoor..

What EU Constitution? There is none. What "back door" - are you trying to suggest that when a negotiation fails you don't see if something can be salvaged? That if an employee is told they can't have a €10,000 wage increase but can have a €9999.99 wage increase they must always walk away?
Why must you lie and twist and misrepresent?

. What's laughable is the EU masquerades as some gold standard of democracy, you'd probably want to look up a few of Junckers most notable quotes, a democrat he is not...

A democrat like Trump, Johnson or Putin? Go back to arguing your flat earth, anti-vax, free man of the land, 5G causes coronavirus conspiracies - you'll sound less stupid that way.

Rodney Bathgate

declanflynn wrote: »

The UK will break up within 10 years, The EU will add 7 to 9 new members in that time, cant think of anyone wanting to join the uk

Ah, an impartial opinion from someone obsessed with Brexit.

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Spot on, you are talking double gibberish. Let’s see how things pan out for your beloved experiment.

I see you are unable to actually deny that there was loads of additional integration after the inclusion of public health exception into EEC treaties (i.e. your argument was gibberish) - and instead you are reduced to fact less name calling. Let others decide who is talking gibberish here

nthclare

fash wrote: »

I see you are unable to actually deny that there was loads of additional integration after the inclusion of public health exception into EEC treaties (i.e. your argument was gibberish) - and instead you are reduced to fact less name calling. Let others decide who is talking gibberish here

You're the one going postal on everyone, undermining their posting and there's a scent of paronia coming from your posts.

Irish Praetorian

nthclare wrote: »

You're the one going postal on everyone, undermining their posting and there's a scent of paronia coming from your posts.

Yeah, this is something that has emerged a bit on boards in these EU debates. What normally happens is the Eurosceptics/Brexiteers tend to make some fairly widely repeated points, some more pro-EU/Remainy people make some counter points, the Brexiteers just repeat themselves or move on until the thread goes quiet and a new Brexiteer comes on to make same cliched point again and the process repeats. It's inculcated a measure of debateweariness I guess you might call it? Again, I think it just underlines the need for us all to ensure we are tip top with our debate standards.

fash

nthclare wrote: »

Here we go, a history lesson, a slap on the wrist and and a suggestion.

I never said we should join the Uk, point out where in my post I suggested that?

Whoever you said we should join the UK- point out in my post where I suggested that?

More in common could mean a lot of things.

So you're holding onto the whole famine thing and world wars and reading my post and then getting triggered into a reaction rather than a response.

I was talking about what the UK was doing in 2019 - there is no need to go further back than that. However the fact that you thought it was about the UK policy in the 19th century proves that the UK's geopolitical motives and means of implementing those in relation to Ireland remain the same. So why would you expect it to be different in the future?

Come on man, I wasn't born yesterday and maybe you should have read my post rather than translate it to how you want to read it.

Read it again - this time more slowly.

A vulnerable Ireland on its own, for the love of Jehova maybe you should get outside and enjoy the sunshine rather than be stuck in darkness resenting the past, and thinking the bogey man is only asleep and when he wakes up he's heading across the Irish sea.

maybe you should pay attention. Practice the reading comprehension first and I'm sure that will come

Rodney Bathgate

nthclare wrote: »

You're the one going postal on everyone, undermining their posting and there's a scent of paronia coming from your posts.

Surprised they haven’t tried to get the thread shutdown.

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

Oh please-
The ones Ireland begged the EU to allow it to rerun ? The Nice treaty originally won (and proven to have been won) on the basis of absurd lies proven to be funded by American neo-cons intent on weakening the EU such as the EU would bring in abortion? Which Ireland then renegotiated and got (entirely unnecessary) guarantees from the EU in relation to? And the abortion for which Ireland voted for itself anyway?
So what is it- were they the same treaties- in which case the Irish population originally voted based on obvious lies or were they not- in which case Ireland renegotiated and entirely different treaties were put to the people.

Let's compare the referendums in Ireland to the nonsense in the UK - or anywhere else. What is the shining beacon you want Ireland to follow? Your masters in Russia, the UK or Trump?



What EU Constitution? There is none. What "back door" - are you trying to suggest that when a negotiation fails you don't see if something can be salvaged? That if an employee is told they can't have a €10,000 wage increase but can have a €9999.99 wage increase they must always walk away?
Why must you lie and twist and misrepresent?



A democrat like Trump, Johnson or Putin? Go back to arguing your flat earth, anti-vax, free man of the land, 5G causes coronavirus conspiracies - you'll sound less stupid that way.

Begging to be rerun? Lol

I remember Cowan on national TV saying our vote would be respected only to look like a lost schoolboy when he was summoned to the European Council to explain why the Irish weren't good little Europeans, will we ever forget Sarkozy "the Irish must vote again!" I wonder how it would go down in France if an Irish politician told French voters they would have to vote again... Probably like a yellow vest protest..

The EU constitution was voted down by French and Dutch voters and all subsequent referendums in other countries were cancelled when they seen the French and Dutch results, it was brought in through amendments to existing treaties but carefully took out all reference to flags, anthems an anything that showed the EUs political ambitions ie: a superstate

Rodney Bathgate

fash wrote: »

Whoever you said we should join the UK- point out in my post where I suggested that?

I was talking about what the UK was doing in 2019 - there is no need to go further back than that. However the fact that you thought it was about the UK policy in the 19th century proves that the UK's geopolitical motives and means of implementing those in relation to Ireland remain the same. So why would you expect it to be different in the future?


Read it again - this time more slowly.

maybe you should pay attention. Practice the reading comprehension first and I'm sure that will come

Reported

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

Oh please-
The ones Ireland begged the EU to allow it to rerun ? The Nice treaty originally won (and proven to have been won) on the basis of absurd lies proven to be funded by American neo-cons intent on weakening the EU such as the EU would bring in abortion? Which Ireland then renegotiated and got (entirely unnecessary) guarantees from the EU in relation to? And the abortion for which Ireland voted for itself anyway?
So what is it- were they the same treaties- in which case the Irish population originally voted based on obvious lies or were they not- in which case Ireland renegotiated and entirely different treaties were put to the people.

Let's compare the referendums in Ireland to the nonsense in the UK - or anywhere else. What is the shining beacon you want Ireland to follow? Your masters in Russia, the UK or Trump?



What EU Constitution? There is none. What "back door" - are you trying to suggest that when a negotiation fails you don't see if something can be salvaged? That if an employee is told they can't have a €10,000 wage increase but can have a €9999.99 wage increase they must always walk away?
Why must you lie and twist and misrepresent?



A democrat like Trump, Johnson or Putin? Go back to arguing your flat earth, anti-vax, free man of the land, 5G causes coronavirus conspiracies - you'll sound less stupid that way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/letters/lisbon-introduces-rejected-eu-constitution-by-the-back-door-95655.html

KyussB

Europhiles are their own worst enemy - many of them don't see that the turn in narrative against the EU, has now taken a permanent turn - and that they created it. Completely tone deaf.

It's pretty scary, really - the EU is vitally important and does need to be held together, but the same groups are holding back reforms needed to stop economies cratering, and are preventing the narrative from developing, that's needed to foster that reform.

nthclare

fash wrote: »

Whoever you said we should join the UK- point out in my post where I suggested that?

I was talking about what the UK was doing in 2019 - there is no need to go further back than that. However the fact that you thought it was about the UK policy in the 19th century proves that the UK's geopolitical motives and means of implementing those in relation to Ireland remain the same. So why would you expect it to be different in the future?


Read it again - this time more slowly.

maybe you should pay attention. Practice the reading comprehension first and I'm sure that will come

Im dyslexic and try my best, to get my points across.

Enjoy the rest of your evening, thankfully your social skills don't match the rest of the posters here.

Have one on me

declanflynn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Ah, an impartial opinion from someone obsessed with Brexit.

I take it your a brit and glad it's all done

Rodney Bathgate

declanflynn wrote: »

I take it your a brit and glad it's all done

A ‘brit’? I take it you are a ‘nordie’ then?

declanflynn

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

A ‘brit’? I take it you are a ‘nordie’ then?

No but I'm glad it's done

Danzy

Unless the EU and ECB pull the finger out and take this crisis seriously then the break up of the EU will be the least of our problems.

The current EU approach is a weak link globally.

Rodney Bathgate

declanflynn wrote: »

No but I'm glad it's done

Great, I assume we all want to see Britain thrive outside of the EU.

McGiver

Rodney Bathgate wrote:

Great, I assume we all want to see Britain thrive outside of the EU.

Hello bot or troll. Do you get money directly from the Kremlin or indirectly from your fascist cell/party/group paid by Kremlin?

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

Hello bot or troll. Do you get money directly from the Kremlin or indirectly from your fascist cell/party/group paid by Kremlin?

Rodney Bathgate

McGiver wrote: »

Hello bot or troll. Do you get money directly from the Kremlin or indirectly from your fascist cell/party/group paid by Kremlin?

What’s your major defect, son? I’m Irish, I have no contact with the Kremlin.

Can you really not understand that we are allowed to have dissenting opinions from your ‘group think’ without needing to be paid shills for Russia / China. Are you so brainwashed that you immediately jump to the conclusion that Russian / Chinese bots are posting on this thread?

Seriously?

Cop yourself on, pal.

Why would anyone want Britain to not succeed after leaving the EU? Afraid that it will encourage other countries to follow suit? Pathetic and sickening attitude.

Rodney Bathgate

A quick search shows that McGiver isn’t even Irish, yet he is throwing around accusations about Russian bots and foreign influence on an Irish site?

FFS.

2u2me

This is surely the greatest challenge the Union has ever faced?

I don't see a lot of solidarity in this time of crisis.

ArchXStanton

2u2me wrote: »

This is surely the greatest challenge the Union has ever faced?

I don't see a lot of solidarity in this time of crisis.

No doubt Guy Verhofstadt, the high priest of his temple, the EU parliament building, will be fanatically screeching for moreeee EU after all this blows over

LeinsterDub

mulbot wrote: »

Don't see anything about equipment being faulty in that article.

Useless sorry. But not exactly helpful

LeinsterDub

Danno wrote: »

Where will those "billions of Euro" end up?

On the loan books of governments and large corporations who will get a sweet 0.24% interest rate, meanwhile your local SME will be charged 4% to 7% for any kind of loan. This will result in higher prices going forward on local produce and services. The Governments will have to pay back the cash to the EU meaning higher taxes on the plebs.

The EU must ensure, no matter what, that the bankers get their twist out of distributing the money and taking their cut. The EU has no interest in the ordinary citizen.

What exact alternative do you propose so?

RandomName2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

Billions of euro? Only when Italy threatened to pull out of the EU altogether.

Both Germany and the Netherlands were deeply opposed to providing any monetary assistance to southern Europe. It prompted some exceptionally colorful remarks from the Portuguese President. The position of the Netherland's VVD, and Germany's CDU was that if you were managing your economy correctly you would have enough surplus to cover Covid-19 expenditure. The position of southern Europe was that the austerity measures imposed by the rest of the EU in 2008 ensured that there would be no surplus.

Given that the current Prime Minster of Italy is a pro-EU socialist, and has nevertheless had to take such a hard line against Brussels, is significant.

The EU has failed to cover itself in glory on this one. This article provides an excellent, unbiased assessment of the narrative of its collective failure.
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-failed-the-test/

Since then the banning of exports of medical gear to Italy, the fact that Italy became infected from Germany, and that Brussels is seeking to punish the political response by Hungary and Poland to Covid-19, augurs poorly for internal harmony.

LeinsterDub

The naysayers in this thread want schrodingers EU. Both strong enough to enforce it's iron will on it members while at the rest of time complaining the EU is too strong and is forcing us to do things we don't want to

LeinsterDub

RandomName2 wrote: »

Billions of euro? Only when Italy threatened to pull out of the EU altogether.

Both Germany and the Netherlands were deeply opposed to providing any monetary assistance to southern Europe. It prompted some exceptionally colorful remarks from the Portuguese President. The position of the Netherland's VVD, and Germany's CDU was that if you were managing your economy correctly you would have enough surplus to cover Covid-19 expenditure. The position of southern Europe was that the austerity measures imposed by the rest of the EU in 2008 ensured that there would be no surplus.

Given that the current Prime Minster of Italy is a pro-EU socialist, and has nevertheless had to take such a hard line against Brussels, is significant.

The EU has failed to cover itself in glory on this one. This article provides an excellent, unbiased assessment of the narrative of its collective failure.
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-failed-the-test/

Since then the banning of exports of medical gear to Italy, the fact that Italy became infected from Germany, and that Brussels is seeking to punish the political response by Hungary and Poland to Covid-19, augurs poorly for internal harmony.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1122069/
This was a month ago. Germany and Netherlands are opposed to consolidated bonds not an aid package in general. The EU is a collection of individual states of course it takes a while to formulate a response

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The naysayers in this thread want schrodingers EU. Both strong enough to enforce it's iron will on it members while at the rest of time complaining the EU is too strong and is forcing us to do things we don't want to

I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash

_Kaiser_

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash

+1

The pro-EU'ers here really do their cause no favours either. Nonsense about Trump (the obsession - for or against- many on this site have with the man is bizzare!), Russians, Brexit all thrown in as if it somehow adds weight to their arguments or discredits anyone. Leave that nonsense to Americans on Twitter where it belongs.

But.. as with Brexit and Trump, those most stridently vocal and dismissive against them have only themselves to blame. There is a growing discontent in Europe and the US with the "business as usual" approach that has served most of the ordinary citizens so badly in the last few decades. People work harder, supposedly for more, yet come out with less, and with less prospects for themselves or their families. All while a minority of the connected and wealthy reap the rewards of the efforts of these people.

That is why Trump and Brexit happened. That is why there has been an undeniable rise in nationalist (so-called populist so as to dismiss them) movements and parties in Europe. More and more, people have had enough of their lives being treated as disposable economic commodoties by those charged with representing and serving their interest. They're tired of being ignored, marginalised or belittled by people and bodies who regularly prove themselves to be incompetent, wasteful or completely disconnected from the realities faced by many.

It's this refusal to acknowledge the causes and issues affecting citizens that will ultimately be the downfall of the EU - not Trump, not Putin or whatever other "boogeyman" the Europhiles might throw out.