European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

PyreOfHellfire

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Keep trying, you might convert someone yet.

No need to convert anyone. How many seats did the Anti EU parties get in the last GE? Oh yeah, none. In fact I'm being to hard on Sinn Fein, they're not dumb enough to come out and campaign on leaving the EU or else they would go the way of the Progressive Democrats and never be heard from again. In fact the total number of votes for Anti EU parties in the last GE was 10,000. All you lot need to do is quadruptle that number and you'll have the same amount of votes as Aontu and you'll get a single seat. I'm pretty sure the dominos will fall from there. Good luck with that. Keep preaching about bendy banana regulations that don't exist and how Russia and Cuba are so great and I'm sure everyone will have the same revelation you've had about the EU. After all, communist dictatorships are clearly more democratic than the EU.

Rodney Bathgate

PyreOfHellfire wrote: »

No need to convert anyone. How many seats did the Anti EU parties get in the last GE? Oh yeah, none. In fact I'm being to hard on Sinn Fein, they're not dumb enough to come out and campaign on leaving the EU or else they would go the way of the Progressive Democrats and never be heard from again. In fact the total number of votes for Anti EU parties in the last GE was 10,000. All you lot need to do is quadruptle that number and you'll have the same amount of votes as Aontu and you'll get a single seat. I'm pretty sure the dominos will fall from there. Good luck with that. Keep preaching about bendy banana regulations that don't exist and how Russia and Cuba are so great and I'm sure everyone will have the same revelation you've had about the EU. After all, communist dictatorships are clearly more democratic than the EU.

For starters, can you quote the posts where I say Russia and Cuba are great, pal?

Danno

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

Where will those "billions of Euro" end up?

On the loan books of governments and large corporations who will get a sweet 0.24% interest rate, meanwhile your local SME will be charged 4% to 7% for any kind of loan. This will result in higher prices going forward on local produce and services. The Governments will have to pay back the cash to the EU meaning higher taxes on the plebs.

The EU must ensure, no matter what, that the bankers get their twist out of distributing the money and taking their cut. The EU has no interest in the ordinary citizen.

fash

biko wrote: »

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.


This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

Actually there was massive financial assistance by the EU to Greece - look it up. And that was despite the fact that the system was specifically set up so that each party would be fully responsible for itself- so no oversight when things were good and no assistance when things were bad. The Greek government (and people who voted for them) liked this as it allowed them to go crazy with the credit card.

Both public health and migration / refugee policy are expressly excluded from EU competence- to prevent the EU from doing anything. Are you suggesting that the EU should be given this power? If you are suggesting that it is not given any power, why are you blaming it? It is the equivalent of grabbing someone's hands then hitting them in the face with their hands while laughing "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself"

RobertKK

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

ArchXStanton

RobertKK wrote: »

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

sdanseo

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that global connectivity caused this thing to spread like wildfire.

Any advances over the 1918 pandemic that information technology gave us were eradicated by the 25,000 flights a day bringing infected people to other continents in hours.

None of that however is a reason global connectivity shouldn't be a thing. It's the world we live in. We need a cure for the virus, not a cure for globalism.

The US has so far spent $53bn on this crisis but will spend $748bn on defence this year. It spent similar last year, and the year before. (of money it doesn't have).

Cut the cord of military industrial complex and funnel that money into medical research. If through what in the scheme of things are vanity projects we can build aircraft carriers, go to the moon, figure out that there's a planet 40 light years away with an atmosphere the same temperature of each and smash neutrons together at almost the speed of light; then surely we can cure a bloody virus if we wanted to. Not to mention all manner of other diseases.

lalababa

The EU is the most successful peace and market alliance in the history of the world...period. No international wars, rise in living standards across the board. Look how much trouble the Brits are in. They have no trade deals yet.
The EU is absolutely seethingly hated through jealousy by the rest of the world. And nobody in their right mind would invade an EU country or start a trade war.
Look at the countries constantly trying to get in. Turkey wasn't let in and is throwing the toys out of the pram!
The main culprits trying to destabilise the EU are Russia/US/China/ etc
So that article is bollocks.

Irish Praetorian

RobertKK wrote: »

Health is an area that is in the power of individual countries in the EU.

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

The EU only ever had limited powers in this, the power always lay with individual governments, but it is convenient for governments to pass off the blame for their own failings on the EU. Give the EU more power rather than pretending it had the power to be anymore effective if that is what you want.
But I guess the people blaming the EU also do not want this.

This is the usual framekwork for complaints against the EU;

If the EU does nothing, then it's a toothless entity not worth being part of.
If the EU does something, its an all invasive oppressive regime that we need to escape.

The EU has a number of exclusive competencies, healthcare is not one of them - it is at best a shared competency when it comes to a common concern (which to be fair COVID 19 would be) but primarily healthcare is a national issue.

Now, as a shared competency with national governments, the EU has undertaken initatives in the following areas;

-Collective repatriation of EU citizens.
-Procurement and stockpiling of medical equipment.
-Creation of joint advisory panels.
-Temporary waiver of duty on medical imports.
-Supporting continued operation of the food supply chain.
-And more recently, economic measures to ameliorate the attendant shock from this outbreak.

Now one can make the argument that such measures either go to far or don't go far enough, but if we're actually going to debate these points, it might be useful if we go a little bit deeper than 'well the EU did nothing but Russia sent a planeload of stuff so the EU will be gone next year'.

2u2me

biko wrote: »

When Greece economy crumbled 10 years ago EU did nothing.
When Turkey started shipping migrants to Greece's borders, again EU did nothing.

They award themselves ridiculous amounts of money to "rule" but they are of no importance.
If ever there was a real-life example of Hunger Games' "Capitol", it's the people in Brussels.

This crisis just shows that when in strife each country looks to itself, not to the "union".

Heather Conley, director of CSIS's* Europe Program, breaks down the seven tests the pandemic poses for Europe and how it's faired thus far.
*Centre for strategic and international studies think tank

1. Humanitarian aid lacking. Italy had to get humanitarian aid from Russia and China.
2. Coordination of border closes and lockdown. We couldn't coordinate properly.
3. ECB proving financial support to stricken countries particularly Italy, Spain. Euro bonds will be a test of how we fare here. Northern European countries are objecting to them(Germany/Netherlands).
4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking.
5. Leadership. Strains of politics showing.
6. Geopolitics. China and Russia information warfare.
7. Future. Can they decide on new and ambitious future? Will money be used for recovery or new green deal? Will we agree to debt mutualization or will this strain the EU to a breaking point.

ArchXStanton

2u2me wrote: »

Heather Conley, director of CSIS's* Europe Program, breaks down the seven tests the pandemic poses for Europe and how it's faired thus far.
*Centre for strategic and international studies think tank

1. Humanitarian aid lacking. Italy had to get humanitarian aid from Russia and China.
2. Coordination of border closes and lockdown. We couldn't coordinate properly.
3. ECB proving financial support to stricken countries particularly Italy, Spain. Euro bonds will be a test of how we fare here. Northern European countries are objecting to them(Germany/Netherlands).
4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking.
5. Leadership. Strains of politics showing.
6. Geopolitics. China and Russia information warfare.
7. Future. Can they decide on new and ambitious future? Will money be used for recovery or new green deal? Will we agree to debt mutualization or will this strain the EU to a breaking point.

"4. Democracy. Hungary and Hungarian government democracy is failing. European Union response lacking."


Be a bit rich now of the EU to be lecturing anybody about democracy...

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/d3bc25ea-652c-11ea-b3f3-fe4680ea68b5



An example of european solidarity?

Isn't that an example of what happens without solidarity? Are you for or against solidarity? For or against having a coordinated European response? Let me guess: "I don't care, I just hate the EU"

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

As disastrous as the US or the UK? Let's not forget that the euro was set up specifically in a way that there would be effectively zero European oversight or responsibility - so that member states (and the electorates that voted for them) would get the benefit of low interest rates, low inflation and the right to spend as they please but be responsible for ensuring they did so responsibly.
Sounds like it's "heads profligate country wins, tails EU losses"
Furthermore, are you saying that that responsibility should be taken away from member states?

Fred Cryton

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Well they can f*** off out of the EU then, it's their choice. Clearly, as we've seen with the UK, any country can leave.



Sick of these Mediterranean countries with their faux tears claiming the "future of Europe at stake" or some such nonsense. What they really mean is yet again they need a handout and can't manage their own affairs. Perhaps they should pay their public sector less and offer less generous pension arrangements as they clearly can't afford it.

fash

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Be a bit rich now of the EU to be lecturing anybody about democracy...

Really? What do you consider to be more democratic that the EU? The UK with its faux democracy? The US with this:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-sidelines-watchdog-tapped-virus-rescue-oversight-70023103 ?

fash

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Well they can f*** off out of the EU then, it's their choice. Clearly, as we've seen with the UK, any country can leave.



Sick of these Mediterranean countries with their faux tears claiming the "future of Europe at stake" or some such nonsense. What they really mean is yet again they need a handout and can't manage their own affairs. Perhaps they should pay their public sector less and offer less generous pension arrangements as they clearly can't afford it.

I honestly think that they should consider setting up a second Euro - let Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland "step off the boat"- along with anyone who wants to go with them.
Would Ireland stay with the "let's inflate our debts away but damage future business with massive future interest rates as well as reduce the income of pensioners and those on fixed incomes to nothing" - or want to stay with the hard currency people?

ArchXStanton

fash wrote: »

Really? What do you consider to be more democratic that the EU? The UK with its faux democracy? The US with this:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-sidelines-watchdog-tapped-virus-rescue-oversight-70023103 ?

Yes really, the EU has its own dubious past when it comes to respecting referendums "there can be no democratic choice against the treaties" - Juncker

But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag, I certainly won't be

Rodney Bathgate

fash wrote: »

Isn't that an example of what happens without solidarity? Are you for or against solidarity? For or against having a coordinated European response? Let me guess: "I don't care, I just hate the EU"

It shows that the EU nations aren’t all in this together, that nations will look after own interests first.

What are you suggesting - that the EU should force solidarity?

Fred Cryton

fash wrote: »

I honestly think that they should consider setting up a second Euro - let Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland "step off the boat"- along with anyone who wants to go with them.
Would Ireland stay with the "let's inflate our debts away but damage future business with massive future interest rates as well as reduce the income of pensioners and those on fixed incomes to nothing" - or want to stay with the hard currency people?

Depends on choices Irish people make at ballot box. We should be with the hard currency people as we are a rich country.


But if SF get into power we will likely go down the Mediterranean lefty populist route, chase away investment and run up enormous debts etc. Would be unable to cut it then in the big leagues.

Rodney Bathgate

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Yes really, the EU has its own dubious past when it comes to respecting referendums "there can be no democratic choice against the treaties" - Juncker

But you go right on ahead and wave your little blue flag, I certainly won't be

Whatever happened that old dipso?

ArchXStanton

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Whatever happened that old dipso?

Last I seen the EU were holding some big pompous ceremony in his honor as he was stepping down from his position, goes to show how ridiculous that organisation is when they revere a fool

IAMAMORON

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

Not just the far right either. Most of southern Italy have been looking to dump the EU for years. They are sick of their lives been ruined through the migrant crises and other issues. It is worth adding also that there are also separatist parties within Italy who would be interested in seeing more political devolvement of Italy as a whole, never mind getting out of Europe. Watch that space. Provincial nationalism is rife in southern Italy, not unlike the Basque or Catalonia on the Iberian peninsula. There are many in northern Italy who could also shrug their shoulders at such concepts.

nthclare

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

ArchXStanton

nthclare wrote: »

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

Interesting piece about "the roads"

http://www.caef.org.uk/d29tens.html#

handlemaster

Muahahaha wrote: »

Read an article a few weeks back about how far right parties in Italy are keeping their powder dry for now but when all the dust has settled on this in six months time they are going to target an Italian exit from the EU by using the EUs lack of a response on the virus against them.

You get what you vote for.

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Interesting piece about "the roads"

http://www.caef.org.uk/d29tens.html#

Er, it's not that interesting to be fair - I mean for one the piece is more than 20 years old and I believe the particular legislative appartus it has in its firing line has actually been defunct for about ten years now.

More to the point, have you actually looked at the complaints?
They seem to be angry that the motorway network will allowed people and goods to travel more easily because it might damage local industries that exist because people don't have access to more compeditive alternatives.
They seem to be opposed to the potential enviornmental impact, which I might have some time for, but seems utterly divorced from the present Brexiteer movement.
And they also seem to have some fairly peculiar and odd criticisms about the dangers of the UK M6 becoming a lorry only motorway (which plainly didn't happen) as well as 'rampant individualism' and 'unbridled market economy', which again, seems like a ridiculous complaint given the fairly libertarian taint of the present Brexiteer upper crust.

To be frank, I'm really not sure if anyone can make a good-faith defence of the EU if even something as mundane as maintaining and improving physical infrastucture between its member states starts being seen as some instrinsic evil.

fash

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

It shows that the EU nations aren’t all in this together, that nations will look after own interests first.

What are you suggesting - that the EU should force solidarity?

no what I am suggesting is that you are talking gibberish:

Of course countries are not working in solidarity in this area: they specifically set up the EU so that in just this type of situation it would not happen. You are the one complaining about that sovereign countries are doing exactly what they always wanted and intended to do. So precisely why are you complaining? Should the EU be empowered to do something or should it not? Considering that the US has been far more ruthless about seizing goods destined for countries it is in international agreements with, why do you not focus your hypocritical faux complaints on them?

fash

nthclare wrote: »

I don't know much about politics etc, but I think a lot of people want their heritage and culture back.

The whole EU thing is a failure in my eyes.

The emperors new clothes, back handers and been dictated to by aul lads in the EU isn't exactly my idea of a free union.

Ireland is the only English speaking country in Union and we've more in common with the UK and USA than the rest of them.

This covid 19 is giving sober people a lot of time to realise that Fr Ted did kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.

We're well ahead of a lot of Europe, well educated, we're an Island and we've been through a lot of Sh1t since partition and we just dust ourselves off and get on with it.

Europe paying for our roads, then we get the gravel and the materials from our own country, and then outsiders get the contracts to build the roads and motorways.

Plenty of work here for our infrastructure, but it's nearly always like trying to peel an onion without shedding a tear...

I sometimes wonder wtf is going on out there.

Who's running the show?

before joining the EU/EEC, Ireland was (and was forced to be) an impoverished vassal state to the UK. The UK did what it could to ensure that. The UK joining the EEC (which allowed Ireland to follow) freed Ireland from that vassalage. Outside of the EU, that is all that awaits Ireland: impoverishment and vassalage to the UK.
Let's not forget that the UK most recently threatened to starve Ireland, prevent medical supplies from arriving and as much economic destruction as they could do if Ireland didn't submit to its demands and allow thousands of Irish to die. They were only prevented because of the power of the EU- and you want to give that up!? You think the UK will be nicer to a vulnerable Ireland all on its own?!

As regards"outsiders getting contracts to build roads"- have a look at the WTO treaties on public contracts - you might learn something (although then again...)

McGiver

RobertKK wrote:

It is amazing how people who are seemingly against the EU use a crisis to complain about there being not enough Europe (EU), but at the same time flat out refuse to give the EU the power it would need to be more proactive.

This is a typical Brexiteer / europhobic schizophrenia.

The EU is at the same time an all controlling superstate yet is too weak and not doing enough. Both can't be true.
Either it's a superstate in which case it isn't weak. Or it is weak in which case it isn't a superstate.

So if you want to have a speedily acting EU then give it competencies and budget to do so.

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote:

Pretty sure the EUs drive for austerity had disastrous effects for a number of countries healthcare systems... Mad for the oul power so they are.... more more they scream, its too bloated and convoluted to ever be effective.

Which drive? Which is country?