European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

Rodney Bathgate

A quick search shows that McGiver isn’t even Irish, yet he is throwing around accusations about Russian bots and foreign influence on an Irish site?

FFS.

2u2me

This is surely the greatest challenge the Union has ever faced?

I don't see a lot of solidarity in this time of crisis.

ArchXStanton

2u2me wrote: »

This is surely the greatest challenge the Union has ever faced?

I don't see a lot of solidarity in this time of crisis.

No doubt Guy Verhofstadt, the high priest of his temple, the EU parliament building, will be fanatically screeching for moreeee EU after all this blows over

LeinsterDub

mulbot wrote: »

Don't see anything about equipment being faulty in that article.

Useless sorry. But not exactly helpful

LeinsterDub

Danno wrote: »

Where will those "billions of Euro" end up?

On the loan books of governments and large corporations who will get a sweet 0.24% interest rate, meanwhile your local SME will be charged 4% to 7% for any kind of loan. This will result in higher prices going forward on local produce and services. The Governments will have to pay back the cash to the EU meaning higher taxes on the plebs.

The EU must ensure, no matter what, that the bankers get their twist out of distributing the money and taking their cut. The EU has no interest in the ordinary citizen.

What exact alternative do you propose so?

RandomName2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean the EU reaction of billions of euro? Or purchasing equipment on a European scale or other European countries sending doctors or taking patients? Wasn't a lot of the Russian equipment faulty?

Billions of euro? Only when Italy threatened to pull out of the EU altogether.

Both Germany and the Netherlands were deeply opposed to providing any monetary assistance to southern Europe. It prompted some exceptionally colorful remarks from the Portuguese President. The position of the Netherland's VVD, and Germany's CDU was that if you were managing your economy correctly you would have enough surplus to cover Covid-19 expenditure. The position of southern Europe was that the austerity measures imposed by the rest of the EU in 2008 ensured that there would be no surplus.

Given that the current Prime Minster of Italy is a pro-EU socialist, and has nevertheless had to take such a hard line against Brussels, is significant.

The EU has failed to cover itself in glory on this one. This article provides an excellent, unbiased assessment of the narrative of its collective failure.
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-failed-the-test/

Since then the banning of exports of medical gear to Italy, the fact that Italy became infected from Germany, and that Brussels is seeking to punish the political response by Hungary and Poland to Covid-19, augurs poorly for internal harmony.

LeinsterDub

The naysayers in this thread want schrodingers EU. Both strong enough to enforce it's iron will on it members while at the rest of time complaining the EU is too strong and is forcing us to do things we don't want to

LeinsterDub

RandomName2 wrote: »

Billions of euro? Only when Italy threatened to pull out of the EU altogether.

Both Germany and the Netherlands were deeply opposed to providing any monetary assistance to southern Europe. It prompted some exceptionally colorful remarks from the Portuguese President. The position of the Netherland's VVD, and Germany's CDU was that if you were managing your economy correctly you would have enough surplus to cover Covid-19 expenditure. The position of southern Europe was that the austerity measures imposed by the rest of the EU in 2008 ensured that there would be no surplus.

Given that the current Prime Minster of Italy is a pro-EU socialist, and has nevertheless had to take such a hard line against Brussels, is significant.

The EU has failed to cover itself in glory on this one. This article provides an excellent, unbiased assessment of the narrative of its collective failure.
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-europe-failed-the-test/

Since then the banning of exports of medical gear to Italy, the fact that Italy became infected from Germany, and that Brussels is seeking to punish the political response by Hungary and Poland to Covid-19, augurs poorly for internal harmony.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1122069/
This was a month ago. Germany and Netherlands are opposed to consolidated bonds not an aid package in general. The EU is a collection of individual states of course it takes a while to formulate a response

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The naysayers in this thread want schrodingers EU. Both strong enough to enforce it's iron will on it members while at the rest of time complaining the EU is too strong and is forcing us to do things we don't want to

I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash

_Kaiser_

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash

+1

The pro-EU'ers here really do their cause no favours either. Nonsense about Trump (the obsession - for or against- many on this site have with the man is bizzare!), Russians, Brexit all thrown in as if it somehow adds weight to their arguments or discredits anyone. Leave that nonsense to Americans on Twitter where it belongs.

But.. as with Brexit and Trump, those most stridently vocal and dismissive against them have only themselves to blame. There is a growing discontent in Europe and the US with the "business as usual" approach that has served most of the ordinary citizens so badly in the last few decades. People work harder, supposedly for more, yet come out with less, and with less prospects for themselves or their families. All while a minority of the connected and wealthy reap the rewards of the efforts of these people.

That is why Trump and Brexit happened. That is why there has been an undeniable rise in nationalist (so-called populist so as to dismiss them) movements and parties in Europe. More and more, people have had enough of their lives being treated as disposable economic commodoties by those charged with representing and serving their interest. They're tired of being ignored, marginalised or belittled by people and bodies who regularly prove themselves to be incompetent, wasteful or completely disconnected from the realities faced by many.

It's this refusal to acknowledge the causes and issues affecting citizens that will ultimately be the downfall of the EU - not Trump, not Putin or whatever other "boogeyman" the Europhiles might throw out.

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I want it to go back to the EEC, when it someway worked, Europe has gone to sh*te since its started to flex its muscles, right around the time of the financial crash

Do carefully and in detail outline the difference between the EEC and the EU

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Do carefully and in detail outline the difference between the EEC and the EU

One was a trading/economic bloc

The other is a bloated,political, antidemocratic, neoliberal nightmare

Irish Praetorian

Again, and this is the third time I have had to make this point in this thread, the problem we keep running into is that the complaints you lay at the foot of the EU are too vaguely set and seem to resemble little more than the usual Brexiteer talking points. Those talking points are not unfamiliar 'round these parts' and have been fairly comprhensively digested in the main Brexit thread, so to see them put foward again here is a little odd. The main complaints which seem to be lodged here now are that apparently the EU (or pro-EU persons) are too arrogant and are to blame for the EU not being universally popular or for the phenonmon of Trump (and his EU analogues). Yet more of these complaints, as with the piece linked earlier regarding road development, also seem to be strikingly dissonant and often fly in the face of many of the political movements espousing euro-sceptic views today. I mean the previous poster has made a claim that the EU is an agent in the treatment of people as economic commodities (disposable and what not) and seems to be completely deaf to the expressed desire of for example, groups in the Brexiteer movement who would like the UK to adopt a more pro-market, low-tax and low-services economic structure. Now as my track record will show, I really have no problem with the bulk of the desires typically expressed by eurosceptic groups, be it reduction in migration, or economic protectionism - but I think anyone who is seriously articulating these views and sees departure from the EU as a mechanism of seriously pursuing them, is relying on a highly selective reading of both the EU and the wider world.

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Again, and this is the third time I have had to make this point in this thread, the problem we keep running into is that the complaints you lay at the foot of the EU are too vaguely set and seem to resemble little more than the usual Brexiteer talking points. Those talking points are not unfamiliar 'round these parts' and have been fairly comprhensively digested in the main Brexit thread, so to see them put foward again here is a little odd. The main complaints which seem to be lodged here now are that apparently the EU (or pro-EU persons) are too arrogant and are to blame for the EU not being universally popular or for the phenonmon of Trump (and his EU analogues). Yet more of these complaints, as with the piece linked earlier regarding road development, also seem to be strikingly dissonant and often fly in the face of many of the political movements espousing euro-sceptic views today. I mean the previous poster has made a claim that the EU is an agent in the treatment of people as economic commodities (disposable and what not) and seems to be completely deaf to the expressed desire of for example, groups in the Brexiteer movement who would like the UK to adopt a more pro-market, low-tax and low-services economic structure. Now as my track record will show, I really have no problem with the bulk of the desires typically expressed by eurosceptic groups, be it reduction in migration, or economic protectionism - but I think anyone who is seriously articulating these views and sees departure from the EU as a mechanism of seriously pursuing them, is relying on a highly selective reading of both the EU and the wider world.

The problem is most people thought the EU was some benevolent organisation concerned with trade and the regulation of pillow cases, now there's talk of superstates, armies and being dictated to from Brussels(empire building 101), most people aren't too keen on that, especially countries that have lived under the USSR or a foreign power. What was sold as a trading/economic bloc has morphed(rather undemocratically and I'd say machiavellian) into a monstrosity that eats up countries and craps out bureaucracy.people also don't want to see their countries flooded with economic migrants in some bizarre social experiment.

KyussB

Get rid of austerity/NeoLiberal anti-state policies, and fix the Euro (either Germany/Netherlands/etc. agree to mutualize debt, or they force abandonment of the Euro) - and that solves the core problems with the EU.

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

The problem is most people thought the EU was some benevolent organisation concerned with trade and the regulation of pillow cases, now there's talk of superstates, armies and being dictated to from Brussels(empire building 101), most people aren't too keen on that, especially countries that have lived under the USSR or a foreign power. What was sold as a trading/economic bloc has morphed(rather undemocratically and I'd say machiavellian) into a monstrosity that eats up countries and craps out bureaucracy.people also don't want to see their countries flooded with economic migrants in some bizarre social experiment.

In many respects, the EU does remain that organization concerned with trade and regulating the size of pillowcases, that is what greater international cooperation entails and can often appear more sinister than it actually is.

However to the point you raise of superstates, armies and being dictated to by Brussels - you mention it being a case of people talking about it like that and I think you are right, it is people talking about it and in a lot of cases talking out their back sides about it. The idea of an EU army is something that has been raised by the likes of Farage and co for years now and it still remains nothing more than a figment of their collective imaginations, ditto the superstate point and much the same to the 'Brussels dictation' point. Now, people are indeed not keen in living in a new USSR (or should not be keen to in my view), but why would you imagine that people like myself who make the case for the EU would somehow have some kind of ulterior motive to build a new Europe of brutalist archiecture and Communist misery.

Now the last two points you make I think we can sink our teeth into here. The trade bloc turned into something else - now to be fair, the idea of the EU becoming a closer political union was not a secret and was actually quite widely published during the first UK referendum on the EU. To my knowledge, no country has been 'eaten up' by the EU and the benefit of having a large number of countries pool their clerical functions actually means a lower bureaucratic burden overall. The UK for example, is now finding out that it needs to start duplicating a whole host of bureaucracy because it previously relied on shared EU functions. Now as to the issue of migration, I could expand on it but I'll just make this simple point for now - since beginning the Brexit process, the UK has increased its non-EU migration levels to the highest ever seen; as someone with a more conservative view on migration, that is not something I think is of benefit to the UK and I don't think it would benefit Ireland to see the same process, but that is what leaving the EU has entailed.

sameoldname

What drives me mad about these complaints are that the solutions will nearly always be something that they'd complain about more.

Take corona bonds for example. Italy and others (including us) want the benefits of cheaper borrowing but they want no conditions on structural reforms to their economies. (Structural reforms that might actually prevent them from having such ****ty borrowing costs but that's beside the point apparently.) Right, so now the same critics can say we're on the hook for Italian debt and how unfair that is because we have no say over what the other countries are spending and taxing.

So say for example the EU tries to do it in an economically literate manner. Corona bonds now means that in exchange for shared borrowing pool the EU will have to have a direct say in each countries taxation and spending policies to ensure that no country can free ride off the others. Great, imagine the utter meltdown that would occur.

Now, the first option would require a treaty change and the second would also need a referendum in this country so it's highly unlikely to happen before anyone starts losing their mind prematurely.

Irish Praetorian

KyussB wrote: »

Get rid of austerity/NeoLiberal anti-state policies, and fix the Euro (either Germany/Netherlands/etc. agree to mutualize debt, or they force abandonment of the Euro) - and that solves the core problems with the EU.

Just a quick one while I have you, what exactly do you regard as neo-liberal/anti state policies - are we talking the process of privatising state functions or tariff free trade or something else? I'm curious as I've often found the term neo-liberal meaning different things to different people.

riffmongous

ArchXStanton wrote: »

The problem is most people thought the EU was some benevolent organisation concerned with trade and the regulation of pillow cases, now there's talk of superstates, armies and being dictated to from Brussels(empire building 101), most people aren't too keen on that, especially countries that have lived under the USSR or a foreign power. What was sold as a trading/economic bloc has morphed(rather undemocratically and I'd say machiavellian) into a monstrosity that eats up countries and craps out bureaucracy.people also don't want to see their countries flooded with economic migrants in some bizarre social experiment.

Sorry Arch but recent events show that that was only talk, none of it is even close to coming to pass at the moment, as we see

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

One was a trading/economic bloc

The other is a bloated,political, antidemocratic, neoliberal nightmare

Yeah that doesn't cut it. Both are trading blocks and the rest of your post is just a series of buzzwords

LeinsterDub

KyussB wrote: »

Get rid of austerity/NeoLiberal anti-state policies, and fix the Euro (either Germany/Netherlands/etc. agree to mutualize debt, or they force abandonment of the Euro) - and that solves the core problems with the EU.

Britain had 10 years of austerity and isn't in the euro. If the EU said we needed to harmonise our corporate tax rate how do you think it would be received?

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

In many respects, the EU does remain that organization concerned with trade and regulating the size of pillowcases, that is what greater international cooperation entails and can often appear more sinister than it actually is.

However to the point you raise of superstates, armies and being dictated to by Brussels - you mention it being a case of people talking about it like that and I think you are right, it is people talking about it and in a lot of cases talking out their back sides about it. The idea of an EU army is something that has been raised by the likes of Farage and co for years now and it still remains nothing more than a figment of their collective imaginations , ditto the superstate point and much the same to the 'Brussels dictation' point. Now, people are indeed not keen in living in a new USSR (or should not be keen to in my view), but why would you imagine that people like myself who make the case for the EU would somehow have some kind of ulterior motive to build a new Europe of brutalist archiecture and Communist misery.

Now the last two points you make I think we can sink our teeth into here. The trade bloc turned into something else - now to be fair, the idea of the EU becoming a closer political union was not a secret and was actually quite widely published during the first UK referendum on the EU . To my knowledge, no country has been 'eaten up' by the EU and the benefit of having a large number of countries pool their clerical functions actually means a lower bureaucratic burden overall. The UK for example, is now finding out that it needs to start duplicating a whole host of bureaucracy because it previously relied on shared EU functions. Now as to the issue of migration, I could expand on it but I'll just make this simple point for now - since beginning the Brexit process, the UK has increased its non-EU migration levels to the highest ever seen; as someone with a more conservative view on migration, that is not something I think is of benefit to the UK and I don't think it would benefit Ireland to see the same process, but that is what leaving the EU has entailed.

An EU army has been talked about for years... Pesco is in my opinion the beginning of one..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/amp/

Heath on the UK joining the EU

There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified."

Juncker -

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”


Someone is telling porkies here...

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yeah that doesn't cut it. Both are trading blocks and the rest of your post is just a series of buzzwords

Buzzwords you say, seems literally thousands if not millions of people seem to see the same thing with the EU, Google is filled with articles with people who have noticed the same thing.....

sameoldname

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Buzzwords you say, seems literally thousands if not millions of people seem to see the same thing with the EU, Google is filled with articles with people who have noticed the same thing.....

Thousands if not millions of people believe the universe was created in 7 days.

ArchXStanton

sameoldname wrote: »

Thousands if not millions of people believe the universe was created in 7 days.

The proof is in the pudding...

paddythere

Yea this will kill the EU. Either it will be completely destroyed first hand by the economic effects of the virus or it will happen over a longer period where far right parties get elected (like you say, citing the EU disastrous handling of the virus outbreak) with an exit in mind.

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

An EU army has been talked about for years... Pesco is in my opinion the beginning of one..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/amp/

Heath on the UK joining the EU

There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified."

Juncker -

“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?”


Someone is telling porkies here...

Again, to address the first point, all you see there are 'calls' - you and I might suggest the EU invest in building an enormous space based laser satellite, that too would qualify as 'calls' for the EU to build that satellite. Now you might make the argument in question for PESCO but most PESCO members are already NATO members which entails far more commitment and even those who don't have expressed an interest in deeper defence cooperation. For it's own part, PESCO does have an opt out clause which I believe Malta has invoked so its hardly obligatory.

To the point of the two quotes, we might end up going down into a rabbit-hole debate on the definition of sovereignty but to truncate it somewhat, I don't feel that any evolution over the past 20-40 years has been unreasonable. States in question retain the right to depart the EU if they so desire, as of today one (and a half if we count Greenland) country has done so. Otherwise, the EU has operated on the standard principle of the consent of the governed which arises from most democratic societies - the people retain the right to elect represenatives if they wish a different view carried out, but otherwise the EU has no less a claim to being represetative of the views of individual EU citizens than the UK parliament has over the views of British subjects.

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Again, to address the first point, all you see there are 'calls' - you and I might suggest the EU invest in building an enormous space based laser satellite, that too would qualify as 'calls' for the EU to build that satellite. Now you might make the argument in question for PESCO but most PESCO members are already NATO members which entails far more commitment and even those who don't have expressed an interest in deeper defence cooperation. For it's own part, PESCO does have an opt out clause which I believe Malta has invoked so its hardly obligatory.

To the point of the two quotes, we might end up going down into a rabbit-hole debate on the definition of sovereignty but to truncate it somewhat, I don't feel that any evolution over the past 20-40 years has been unreasonable. States in question retain the right to depart the EU if they so desire, as of today one (and a half if we count Greenland) country has done so. Otherwise, the EU has operated on the standard principle of the consent of the governed which arises from most democratic societies - the people retain the right to elect represenatives if they wish a different view carried out, but otherwise the EU has no less a claim to being represetative of the views of individual EU citizens than the UK parliament has over the views of British subjects.

Calls made by the Germany and France in this case and we all know they hold the sway in this "Union" The road from a "Peace Project" to a European Defence Union has already begun.programmes such as the European Defence Industrial Development Programme, Military Mobility, the European Defence Fund, Pesco all coming into existence in just the last while...

I'd say it safe to say its going down the military road and not a "figment of imagination"

ArchXStanton

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

+1

The pro-EU'ers here really do their cause no favours either. Nonsense about Trump (the obsession - for or against- many on this site have with the man is bizzare!), Russians, Brexit all thrown in as if it somehow adds weight to their arguments or discredits anyone. Leave that nonsense to Americans on Twitter where it belongs.

But.. as with Brexit and Trump, those most stridently vocal and dismissive against them have only themselves to blame. There is a growing discontent in Europe and the US with the "business as usual" approach that has served most of the ordinary citizens so badly in the last few decades. People work harder, supposedly for more, yet come out with less, and with less prospects for themselves or their families. All while a minority of the connected and wealthy reap the rewards of the efforts of these people.

That is why Trump and Brexit happened. That is why there has been an undeniable rise in nationalist (so-called populist so as to dismiss them) movements and parties in Europe. More and more, people have had enough of their lives being treated as disposable economic commodoties by those charged with representing and serving their interest. They're tired of being ignored, marginalised or belittled by people and bodies who regularly prove themselves to be incompetent, wasteful or completely disconnected from the realities faced by many.

It's this refusal to acknowledge the causes and issues affecting citizens that will ultimately be the downfall of the EU - not Trump, not Putin or whatever other "boogeyman" the Europhiles might throw out.

I remember an Irexit event being held here a few years ago , tickets were free but you still had to book a place online, the usual europhiles on here thought it would be a great idea to try book up a lot of the tickets and then not show up, that's the level you're dealing with when you criticise the EU on boards... I shot the organisers a pm, better luck next time lads, isn't free speech great...

JMMCapital

I would be worried about a rise in populism, god knows what Steve Bannon & Co are up to.