European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

Danzy

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im not saying its a desirable option but in order to remain relevant , blocks need to be formed , not one country in europe is powerful in a global sense on their own

china , the usa or russia will boss all of the individual countries of the EU around if if the union falls apart but under its current guise , its stumbling from one crisis to the next

Maybe it is desirable, still not going to happen now.

The Dutch, Germans etc made that clear this week.

McGiver

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe it is desirable, still not going to happen now.

The Dutch, Germans etc made that clear this week.

You're going to be disappointed.

The Dutch and the Germans are the most integrated and also the most pro-integration.

It's just a matter of how and when not a question of if. They just don't want to waste money at the moment. Mechanisms will be put in place. Solutions will be found.

UK gone, Chinese ascendancy and few crises will all accelerate the process.

McGiver

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The extremely limited mandate of the ECB is a very significant issue which at some point IMO will need to be addressed. Having a central bank with only inflation control as its objective is lunacy, and is one of the reasons governments are forced to repair and bail out the private financial system as opposed to the body which is supposed to be directly in charge of it. During a crisis such as this, the ECB should be front and centre in ensuring that the economy doesn't collapse while in a medically induced coma, but as its mandate is solely limited to price stability and it is forbidden from taking direct monetary financing action the way most central banks are not, it essentially has to play fast and loose with the rules, and come up with elaborate workarounds to do what it needs to do without violating the idiotic concept that its only responsibility is to inflation control.

To this end, while the breakup of the EU is unlikely, I would suggest that the Eurozone as it currently exists is fundamentally flawed and is doomed to eventual failure sooner or later.

Yes but the failure of the Euro is unlikely. Its much more likely that the Eurozone will be integrated further. Precisely as a reaction to Brexit and the current crisis.

Mad_maxx

McGiver wrote: »

Yes. It will be a marriage of convenience.

Either choose a global irrelevance with belligerent UK, Russia and Turkey on the flanks, medium to the small countries competing each other, with China and US sharks controlling the global scene.

Or unite and set the third path, as opposed to the US or Chinese way, and challenge them. And protect our way of life.

The only country that could somehow make it alone is Germany, but even they understand that United Europe is the only option moving forward. Also, all EU countries prefer Germany contained within the EU than going it alone. It would absolutely dominate Europe otherwise.

germany is not militarily or politically a global heavyweight , it is much smaller than both france and the uk in terms of both , its an economic heavyweight but thats all , it needs to be in the EU to remain strong

Danno

fash wrote: »

before joining the EU/EEC, Ireland was (and was forced to be) an impoverished vassal state to the UK. The UK did what it could to ensure that. The UK joining the EEC (which allowed Ireland to follow) freed Ireland from that vassalage. Outside of the EU, that is all that awaits Ireland: impoverishment and vassalage to the UK.
Let's not forget that the UK most recently threatened to starve Ireland, prevent medical supplies from arriving and as much economic destruction as they could do if Ireland didn't submit to its demands and allow thousands of Irish to die. They were only prevented because of the power of the EU- and you want to give that up!? You think the UK will be nicer to a vulnerable Ireland all on its own?!

As regards"outsiders getting contracts to build roads"- have a look at the WTO treaties on public contracts - you might learn something (although then again...)

Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, not the EU.

Ireland has become a vassal state to the EU now. Sure, they (EEC) paid a few hundred million for the roads - gave us cheap money to buy cars to drive on said roads. We spent a damn lot more on cars than they did on the roads. Meanwhile, we were obliged to open up our rich fishing waters to all EU nations to plunder. We also have carried an unfair burden of the banking crisis bailout (€40,000+ per citizen, yet Germany's burden is €8,000+ per citizen).
We too also have seen home ownership levels nose-dive in this country as pension fund investors from all over the world pick up the majority of new builds here - and our EU puppets in Kildare Street give them fecking charitable status tax loopholes to do so.
So, do a bit of research about some of those things, you might learn a something too (but then again...) that we have a wholesale rape of our country's limited resources going on and we have a complicit political system (regardless of left-wing or right-wing) to support that.

Oh and wait until they bully our softy softy ministers in Dublin into accepting a common consolidated corporation tax system. Thats when the shít with the EU will go down in Ireland.

KyussB

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The extremely limited mandate of the ECB is a very significant issue which at some point IMO will need to be addressed. Having a central bank with only inflation control as its objective is lunacy, and is one of the reasons governments are forced to repair and bail out the private financial system as opposed to the body which is supposed to be directly in charge of it. During a crisis such as this, the ECB should be front and centre in ensuring that the economy doesn't collapse while in a medically induced coma, but as its mandate is solely limited to price stability and it is forbidden from taking direct monetary financing action the way most central banks are not, it essentially has to play fast and loose with the rules, and come up with elaborate workarounds to do what it needs to do without violating the idiotic concept that its only responsibility is to inflation control.

To this end, while the breakup of the EU is unlikely, I would suggest that the Eurozone as it currently exists is fundamentally flawed and is doomed to eventual failure sooner or later.

In the Treaty on the Functioning of the Eurpean Union, Article 127 states:

The primary objective of the European System of Central Banks (hereinafter referred to as ‘the ESCB’) shall be to maintain price stability. Without prejudice to the objective of price stability, the ESCB shall support the general economic policies in the Union with a view to contributing to the achievement of the objectives of the Union as laid down in Article 3 of the Treaty on European Union.
...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12016E127

Article 3 of the Treaty on European Union states:

...
The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment.
...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:2bf140bf-a3f8-4ab2-b506-fd71826e6da6.0023.02/DOC_1&format=PDF

The ECB has an additional mandate to maintain Full Employment. Which it has failed, and presently is failing, to do. Something that ECB funding of e.g. a Job Guarantee policy, would support (and is arguably the only way for the ECB to maintain its mandate)

ShatterAlan

Rufeo wrote: »

Yeah that will happen.

Don't be so dismissive and compllacent..


Italy now hate Germany and Holland like never before

Hotblack Desiato

Danno wrote: »

Meanwhile, we were obliged to open up our rich fishing waters

Oh for jaysus buggering christ's sake, not the fish again :rolleyes:

We had a choice in 1972 (yes, before we entered) and our government chose to give a less sweet deal to fishermen in order to gain a sweeter deal for farmers. Fisheries was never very economically important to our country, and we weren't exploiting our waters anything like to the full anyway.

Take it up with Jack Lynch. Oh wait, you can't, he's dead - but no Irish government since has sought to reverse this policy, because that would be a f**king stupid thing to do.

We also have carried an unfair burden of the banking crisis bailout (€40,000+ per citizen, yet Germany's burden is €8,000+ per citizen).

What? You are seriously suggesting that German citizens pay the cost for the failures of Irish banks which the Irish authorities failed to adequately regulate?

Would you be happy with the reverse scenario....?

We too also have seen home ownership levels nose-dive in this country as pension fund investors from all over the world

All over the world, but somehow it's the EU's fault.

BTW there will be no change on corporate tax without a treaty change and a referendum here, so you're wasting your time flogging that dead horse.

Hotblack Desiato

KyussB wrote: »

It's pretty scary, really - the EU is vitally important and does need to be held together, but the same groups are holding back reforms needed to stop economies cratering, and are preventing the narrative from developing, that's needed to foster that reform.

Ah yes, "reform" (with the nature or need for reforms always left unspecified) was the Brexiteer's favourite demand of the EU in order to paint it as somehow defective. It's their own country which is seriously defective.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

now there's talk of superstates, armies and being dictated to from Brussels(empire building 101)

From the usual bullshít artists, yes. I notice you're quite fond of using far-right websites with an agenda clear as day as 'sources'.

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Just a quick one while I have you, what exactly do you regard as neo-liberal/anti state policies - are we talking the process of privatising state functions or tariff free trade or something else? I'm curious as I've often found the term neo-liberal meaning different things to different people.

It's a nebulous term which tends to mean whatever the person using it dislikes.

What it's usually used to describe isn't neo, and is decidedly not liberal - the US Republican far-right view that markets solve all and business must always be allowed to act unfettered. But even in the US, governments intervene in markets and regulate corporations to at least some extent, largely because of the excesses of the late 19th-early 20th century 'robber barons'.

Whenever I see anyone use the term 'neoliberal' I dismiss anything they have to say out of hand, this cuts out a great deal of noise but very little or no signal.

McGiver

Danno wrote:

Ireland has become a vassal state to the EU now.

You lost the argument in the first sentence. This is fundamentally and objectively untrue.

Ireland is the EU and cannot be a vassal to itself. Ireland has immensely more diplomatic power within the EU given its size as it would have outside of the EU. It is only within the EU where first time in history it cannot be blackmailed and pushed around by the UK as a pawn.

The rest of your post all relates to Irish issues, caused by Irish politicians, specifically series and decades of poor policies and institutionalised corruption, and nothing to do with the EU. You need to elect better national politicians who don't create and maintain unregulated financial environment and corruption.

McGiver

Mad_maxx wrote: »

germany is not militarily or politically a global heavyweight , it is much smaller than both france and the uk in terms of both , its an economic heavyweight but thats all , it needs to be in the EU to remain strong

But its not too bad either. Militarily it's lagging because it didn't invest, they didn't want to be seen as arming themselves. But they've been increasing spending. And this will continue. They won't match France but they will improve.
https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp

France, Italy and Germany combined with several others into some sort of a European proto-army is going to happen and it's going to be a solid military in global terms. It's inevitable. You can give only as far with soft power and outsourcing defense is fundamentally wrong. Also, combining EU forces could be cheaper than each country spending on the defense on their own (e.g. Italian navy is OK so why would France need to replicate it to that extent).

Danzy

McGiver wrote: »

You're going to be disappointed.

The Dutch and the Germans are the most integrated and also the most pro-integration.

It's just a matter of how and when not a question of if. They just don't want to waste money at the moment. Mechanisms will be put in place. Solutions will be found.

UK gone, Chinese ascendancy and few crises will all accelerate the process.

Look at the fuss made over the 500bn. While there are cheap loans on top from ECB etc, more debt on countries is not going to grow them out of this.

Mechanisms will be put in place, solutions found you say.

They're needed now.

2 trillion is the estimate needed for the Eurozone in the next 12 months.

The danger for the EU is that the markets might call their bluff.

ArchXStanton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah yes, "reform" (with the nature or need for reforms always left unspecified) was the Brexiteer's favourite demand of the EU in order to paint it as somehow defective. It's their own country which is seriously defective.




From the usual bullshít artists, yes. I notice you're quite fond of using far-right websites with an agenda clear as day as 'sources'.




It's a nebulous term which tends to mean whatever the person using it dislikes.

What it's usually used to describe isn't neo, and is decidedly not liberal - the US Republican far-right view that markets solve all and business must always be allowed to act unfettered. But even in the US, governments intervene in markets and regulate corporations to at least some extent, largely because of the excesses of the late 19th-early 20th century 'robber barons'.

Whenever I see anyone use the term 'neoliberal' I dismiss anything they have to say out of hand, this cuts out a great deal of noise but very little or no signal.

Were have I used a far right site? I can see what you're trying to do here but go on... I'll wait

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

You lost the argument in the first sentence. This is fundamentally and objectively untrue.

Ireland is the EU and cannot be a vassal to itself. Ireland has immensely more diplomatic power within the EU given its size as it would have outside of the EU. It is only within the EU where first time in history it cannot be blackmailed and pushed around by the UK as a pawn.

The rest of your post all relates to Irish issues, caused by Irish politicians, specifically series and decades of poor policies and institutionalised corruption, and nothing to do with the EU. You need to elect better national politicians who don't create and maintain unregulated financial environment and corruption.

"the Irish must vote again"

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Why not? There was talk of going back to just the single market in an EU white paper on the future of Europe after the Brexit vote, my guess that was all lip service to stem the tide of growing euro scepticism, bureaucrats have already decided our future for us... More of the culture of deceit that permeates the EU..

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/future-europe/white-paper-future-europe/white-paper-future-europe-five-scenarios_en

How do you have a single market without all of the rules and regulations of a single market?

LeinsterDub

Danno wrote: »

Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, not the EU.

Ireland has become a vassal state to the EU now. Sure, they (EEC) paid a few hundred million for the roads - gave us cheap money to buy cars to drive on said roads. We spent a damn lot more on cars than they did on the roads. Meanwhile, we were obliged to open up our rich fishing waters to all EU nations to plunder. We also have carried an unfair burden of the banking crisis bailout (€40,000+ per citizen, yet Germany's burden is €8,000+ per citizen).
We too also have seen home ownership levels nose-dive in this country as pension fund investors from all over the world pick up the majority of new builds here - and our EU puppets in Kildare Street give them fecking charitable status tax loopholes to do so.
So, do a bit of research about some of those things, you might learn a something too (but then again...) that we have a wholesale rape of our country's limited resources going on and we have a complicit political system (regardless of left-wing or right-wing) to support that.

Oh and wait until they bully our softy softy ministers in Dublin into accepting a common consolidated corporation tax system. Thats when the shít with the EU will go down in Ireland.

I do love how the march of mechanization in the fishing industry is some how the EU's fault or that it could have been prevented if we were outside the EU.

LeinsterDub

Danzy wrote: »

Look at the fuss made over the 500bn. While there are cheap loans on top from ECB etc, more debt on countries is not going to grow them out of this.

Mechanisms will be put in place, solutions found you say.

They're needed now.

2 trillion is the estimate needed for the Eurozone in the next 12 months.

The danger for the EU is that the markets might call their bluff.

If every country in the world takes on a similar level of debt which seems likely it all becomes a bit irrelevant.

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

"the Irish must vote again"

The question changed so we where asked our opinion again. Aka democracy

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

"the Irish must vote again"

Blame Enda Kenny and the national politicians not the EU.

McGiver

Danzy wrote: »

Look at the fuss made over the 500bn. While there are cheap loans on top from ECB etc, more debt on countries is not going to grow them out of this.

Mechanisms will be put in place, solutions found you say.

They're needed now.

2 trillion is the estimate needed for the Eurozone in the next 12 months.

The danger for the EU is that the markets might call their bluff.

I wouldn't be so skeptical. It's all Dutch drama (related to national politics), they need to show they play hard but they'll agree in the end. It's not easy to get a consensus of 27 countries, especially if you need unanimity. Takes time.

This was only the first step. More will be done. We're still in the middle of the pandemic, Italy and Spain have recently peaked, France, Netherlands and Germany still growing. It wouldn't be realistic to expect a lot at this stage, most countries focus on managing the situation instead of haggling about a complex funding at the moment. Once it's under control in most countries there'll be further negotiations.

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The question changed so we where asked our opinion again. Aka democracy

Fairly dubious democracy...

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

Blame Enda Kenny and the national politicians not the EU.

Those of us who were no campaigners myself included for the Lisbon referendum could see the stitch up was on the way...

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Fairly dubious democracy...

The question changed. This is an other classic case of the EU being in a no win situation.

EU proposes something. People reject it. EU finds out why and changes the proposal. The people accept.

What exactly is wrong with this approach?

The UK has left the EU and the EU doesn't have a constitution so how was the popular will ignored?

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The question changed. This is an other classic case of the EU being in a no win situation.

EU proposes something. People reject it. EU finds out why and changes the proposal. The people accept.

What exactly is wrong with this approach?

The UK has left the EU and the EU doesn't have a constitution so how was the popular will ignored?

There's a lot wrong with it actually, seen as it only works one way, either that or the result is just ignored, always makes me laugh when you post that picture, the europhiles are so completely blinded by their devotion to the EU...

If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'. - juncker on the French result of the EU constitution


Now let's have a look at another bastion of democracy... D'Estaing, the architect of the EU constitution...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-treaty-is-a-constitution-says-giscard-destaing-395521.html%3famp

My my what a democratic bunch, its antidemocratic and downright admistrative abuse, there's a culture of deceit within the EU that doesn't make it the most likeable organisation

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

There's a lot wrong with it actually, seen as it only works one way, either that or the result is just ignored, always makes me laugh when you post that picture, the europhiles are so completely blinded by their devotion to the EU...

If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'. - juncker on the French result of the EU constitution


Now let's have a look at another bastion of democracy... D'Estaing, the architect of the EU constitution...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-treaty-is-a-constitution-says-giscard-destaing-395521.html%3famp

My my what a democratic bunch, its antidemocratic and downright admistrative abuse, there's a culture of deceit within the EU that doesn't make it the most likeable organisation

So hang on, your complaint is that when the EU proposes something and it's popular enough to pass, it does it, but when it proposes something that is not popular enough to pass, it changes it? Is that not more or less the duty of any democratic institution? I mean some of the key changes in the Lisbon treaty related to some of the exact same complaints set out by posters in this thread, things like reducing the relative power of the Commission, establishing Citizens Initiatives and heck even introducing a mechanism for departing the EU (Article 50) and now it's seen to be problem? And this is before we even take into account some of the shameful conduct in these EU referendums at least in Ireland - now you might decry the 'vote yes for jobs' spiel but I recall all manner of nonsense being thrown around on the no side, from claiming the Lisbon Treaty would force us to join NATO to the claim we needed to vote no so we could get risk of pesky chicken labelling - I'm somewhat gratified to know such absurdities weren't able to hoodwink the country (at least not twice).

fly_agaric

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The UK has left the EU

Yes, but the Boards.ie Brexiters certainly haven't moved on & forgotten about the "big bad EU".

Its reaction to every world event is evidence (to them) it will fail + they'll warm their hands over the ashes when it finally burns down.

People are loath to let go of an obsession even after their aim has supposedly been achieved.

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So hang on, your complaint is that when the EU proposes something and it's popular enough to pass, it does it, but when it proposes something that is not popular enough to pass, it changes it? Is that not more or less the duty of any democratic institution? I mean some of the key changes in the Lisbon treaty related to some of the exact same complaints set out by posters in this thread, things like reducing the relative power of the Commission, establishing Citizens Initiatives and heck even introducing a mechanism for departing the EU (Article 50) and now it's seen to be problem? And this is before we even take into account some of the shameful conduct in these EU referendums at least in Ireland - now you might decry the 'vote yes for jobs'[B/] spiel but I recall all manner of nonsense being thrown around on the no side, from claiming the Lisbon Treaty would force us to join NATO to the claim we needed to vote no so we could get risk of pesky chicken labelling - I'm somewhat gratified to know such absurdities weren't able to hoodwink the country (at least not twice).

The citizens iniatives that's only seen 4 completed and was brought in try give the people the idea that it actually cares what they think LOL, I think Ming even brought them to task over that fiasco..

Yep the aul Vote yes for jobs... A complete scumbag move seen as we had high unemployment figures and people desperate for work,disgraceful is right, those jobs took a long time to appear...jobs that would have appeared anyway as we got further out of recession, Remember Brian lenihan being asked were the jobs were only to say there was never any promise of jobs.... I guess that photo with him giving the thumbs up in front of a "Vote yes for jobs!" sign was all bullsh*t...

fly_agaric

ArchXStanton wrote: »

The citizens iniatives that's only seen 4 completed and was brought in try give the people the idea that it actually cares what they think LOL, I think Ming even brought them to task over that fiasco..

Yep the aul Vote yes for jobs... A complete scumbag move seen as we had high unemployment figures and people desperate for work,disgraceful is right, those jobs took a long time to appear...jobs that would have appeared anyway as we got further out of recession, Remember Brian lenihan being asked were the jobs were only to say there was never any promise of jobs.... I guess that photo with him giving the thumbs up in front of a "Vote yes for jobs!" sign was all bullsh*t...

Boiling with righteous indignation about a 12 year old positive, fairly innocuous "yes" campaign slogan in an EU treaty referendum + behaviour of a now deceased politician.

No comment whatsoever on the "no" campaigns' efforts? What a surprise. Silence gives consent I suppose.

ArchXStanton

fly_agaric wrote: »

Boiling with righteous indignation about a 12 year old positive, fairly innocuous "yes" campaign slogan in an EU treaty referendum + behaviour of a now deceased politician.

No comment whatsoever on the "no" campaigns' efforts? What a surprise. Silence gives consent I suppose.

Innocous, it was an out and out scumbag move and blatant fcuking lies to achieve the result they wanted as people were losing their homes and livelihoods

Like the way you tacked on that bit about the deceased there at the end, sending you an Internet pat on the back,.... faux outrage

fly_agaric

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Innocous, it was an out and out scumbag move and blatant fcuking lies to achieve the result they wanted as people were losing their homes and livelihoods

Why so angry ArchX? :pac:
I have to say, it was a long time ago but my memory was Ireland was as you point out in quite deep economic trouble. I wonder how putting a cloud over our EU membership by confirming the No vote would have been of benefit to the country? Maybe you can explain it to me, like I'm 5 as (I think) they say!