European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

fly_agaric

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Like the way you tacked on that bit about the deceased there at the end, sending you an Internet pat on the back,.... faux outrage

There's no outrage faux or otherwise, but thanks for the pat on the back. Something about your comment didn't sit right with me I suppose. If pointing that out has made you reflect a bit, glad to be of service.

ArchXStanton

fly_agaric wrote: »

There's no outrage faux or otherwise, but thanks for the pat on the back. Something about your comment didn't sit right with me I suppose. If pointing that out has made you reflect a bit, glad to be of service.

Meh you might as well be honest and just say you were looking for a few cheap thanks out of it... You got a pat on the back out of it anyways, there there there..

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

The citizens iniatives that's only seen 4 completed and was brought in try give the people the idea that it actually cares what they think LOL, I think Ming even brought them to task over that fiasco..

Yep the aul Vote yes for jobs... A complete scumbag move seen as we had high unemployment figures and people desperate for work,disgraceful is right, those jobs took a long time to appear...jobs that would have appeared anyway as we got further out of recession, Remember Brian lenihan being asked were the jobs were only to say there was never any promise of jobs.... I guess that photo with him giving the thumbs up in front of a "Vote yes for jobs!" sign was all bullsh*t...

I think you might be going down the route of generic "shure arent they all terrible" bemoaning with the first point; I was offering you examples of some of the movement made in more recent EU Treaties towards offering a bigger voice for people. Now you want to turn up your nose and say its not enough; why why dont you tell us what you would find to be "enough"?

As to your second point, I might be more disappointed in it all if I didnt see the same kind of nonsense being done on the eurosceptic side, to an even greater extent in fact. My take away from this is that if the eurosceptic side is going to go down the route of absurd arguments and false claims, then they can accept the blame for the general coarsening of the political debate that entails.

fly_agaric

^^The "I think Ming even brought them to task over that fiasco" part doesn't make much sense in this context either.

I don't recall this incident but Ming is not "pro EU" afair. Ming could be described as a left-Eurosceptic, probably the more common type among Irish politicians. Has he ever had much of a good word to say about the EU?

ArchXStanton - some meaningless internet points for you too, to pour oil on troubled waters during this stressful time for all!

Hotblack Desiato

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Innocous, it was an out and out scumbag move and blatant fcuking lies to achieve the result they wanted as people were losing their homes and livelihoods

The No side lied from start to finish just like they always did before, just like they're still doing now. No comment from you about the €1.83/hour EU army we were all going to be conscripted into? :rolleyes:

ArchXStanton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The No side lied from start to finish just like they always did before, just like they're still doing now. No comment from you about the €1.83/hour EU army we were all going to be conscripted into? :rolleyes:

No worse than the biggest lie of them all..

"Taoiseach Brian Cowen acknowledged after the European Council summit in Brussels today that a number of his fellow leaders had no interest in reopening the text of the Lisbon Treaty, although they had expressed their respect for the Irish referendum result."


Any sign of all them far right links I supposedly use as sources there Maverick?

ArchXStanton

fly_agaric wrote: »

^^The "I think Ming even brought them to task over that fiasco" part doesn't make much sense in this context either.

I don't recall this incident but Ming is not "pro EU" afair. Ming could be described as a left-Eurosceptic, probably the more common type among Irish politicians. Has he ever had much of a good word to say about the EU?

ArchXStanton - some meaningless internet points for you too, to pour oil on troubled waters during this stressful time for all!

Aww here was me thinking there was no love in the world anymore..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDNyJOO80Cs

For what's its worth I actually liked Brian Lenihan and was sorry to hear of his passing, maybe he just got caught up in the whole political photo ops on that one

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Fairly dubious democracy...

This is nonsense. Is it from Putin's propaganda instruction manual?

France and Netherlands results on constitution were not ignored. The constitution was dropped. There are significant differences between the Lisbon treaty and the Constitution. Constitution is s big deal.

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Those of us who were no campaigners myself included for the Lisbon referendum could see the stitch up was on the way...

What would be exactly the benefit of rejecting the Lisbon treaty as a whole? Name some tangible benefits.

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

My my what a democratic bunch, its antidemocratic and downright admistrative abuse, there's a culture of deceit within the EU that doesn't make it the most likeable organisation

This is brilliant. You aware that Ireland is a leading global tax haven and offshore finance centre in a captured state. This all was done by Irish national politicians, systematically and willingly.

Also Ireland generally not very transparent governance, quite a bit of a corruption and the most centralised in western/Northern European terms.

So "culture of deceit" while pointing at the EU is really rich in this context.

McGiver

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The No side lied from start to finish just like they always did before, just like they're still doing now. No comment from you about the €1.83/hour EU army we were all going to be conscripted into? :rolleyes:

EU army is going to happen. But not in a way the eurosceptics think. It will be gradual and it's nothing which would happen any time soon.

If it happens Ireland is going to either get an opt-out or will be providing support staff (nurses or whatever) so shouldn't be a concern...

ILoveYourVibes

Nah.

Italy are just throwing it about to try and get more money. They are not stupid enough to try it and everyone knows.



Everyone knows breaking up the Union would be death right now. Except the British but i think its dawning on them.

And brexit has made it even more clear. I don't think we will be hearing of breaking up the union so much.

s1ippy

https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1248357608886501376?s=19

There's just way too much transparency for people to put up with the imbalance of power within the EU anymore. I actually want Ireland to stay part of the union but when I look at Germany and the NL I see despicable countries who play the system at the expense of others. I think of my many friends who have been saddled with negative equity because they lost their job during the crash. I think of my many friends who have killed themselves, and four of them who died on the streets abusing alcohol.

Italy is a lesson to all the other member states. There's no power in a union when you're the lowest rung of the ladder.

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

This is brilliant. You aware that Ireland is a leading global tax haven and offshore finance centre in a captured state. This all was done by Irish national politicians, systematically and willingly.

Also Ireland generally not very transparent governance, quite a bit of a corruption and the most centralised in western/Northern European terms.

So "culture of deceit" while pointing at the EU is really rich in this context.

Uh huh let's hear from the architect of the EU constitution...

Giscard d'Estaing says the "proposed institutional reforms" of the rejected constitution can still be found in the new treaty.

The authors of the new treaty, he says, have taken the original draft constitution and "blown it apart into separate elements".

They have then "re-attached them, one by one, to existing treaties".

Changes to the original constitution - such as jettisoning references to a European flag and anthem - were made to "head off any threat of referenda", Mr Giscard d'Estaing says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7069181.stm


The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content ... the proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary ... But lift the lid and look in the toolbox: all the same innovative and effective tools are there, just as they were carefully crafted by the European Convention.”
D’Estaing said: “Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly ... All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”

D’Estaing said: The approach “is to keep a part of the innovations of the constitutional treaty and to split them into several texts in order to make them less visible. The most innovative dispositions would pass as simple amendments of the Maastricht and Nice treaties. The technical improvements would be gathered in an innocuous treaty. The whole would be addressed to Parliaments, which would decide with separate votes. The public opinion would therefore unknowingly adopt the dispositions that it would not accept if presented directly.”

Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said: “The substance of what was agreed in 2004 has been retained. Really, what is gone is the term ‘constitution’.”

https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3340

No culture of deceit there what so eva..

I'll look forward to your mental somersaults on this...

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

EU army is going to happen. But not in a way the eurosceptics think. It will be gradual and it's nothing which would happen any time soon.

If it happens Ireland is going to either get an opt-out or will be providing support staff (nurses or whatever) so shouldn't be a concern...

Well at least you're honest on this one unlike the others who claim its "a figment of imagination" to suit their arguments, there has been plenty of talk about an EU army and mechanisms put in place to achieve this... God help us.. These nut jobs with an army...

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

This is nonsense. Is it from Putin's propaganda instruction manual?

France and Netherlands results on constitution were not ignored. The constitution was dropped. There are significant differences between the Lisbon treaty and the Constitution. Constitution is s big deal.

Google each one of those referendums... I'll wait here for you..

suicide_circus

Has the EU as an entity won the hearts of the people?

sameoldname

s1ippy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1248357608886501376?s=19

There's just way too much transparency for people to put up with the imbalance of power within the EU anymore. I actually want Ireland to stay part of the union but when I look at Germany and the NL I see despicable countries who play the system at the expense of others. I think of my many friends who have been saddled with negative equity because they lost their job during the crash. I think of my many friends who have killed themselves, and four of them who died on the streets abusing alcohol.

Italy is a lesson to all the other member states. There's no power in a union when you're the lowest rung of the ladder.

Right, so now give Italy a AAA credit rating. What have you fixed? They can borrow more but the structural problems of their economy remains, their legal system is still an international bad joke. It's even mentioned in that twitter thread, the Netherlands grew their economy and thus their debt load as a % of GDP declined. Italy did not.

Even though both countries can be considered advanced economies, one of them has some of the highest levels of corruption in the western world, the other is one of the least corrupt. One has a functional, logical and consistent legal system, the other has nothing of the sort.
I'd argue that has far more to do with Italy's chronically bad economy than it's high borrowing costs. In fact, the latter is merely a symptom of the former.

Italy needs reform but because of a massively unstable history of governance (another huge problem) it hasn't happened and it seems unlikely to happen any time soon.
So let them borrow what they like. In 10 years or so they'll be back in the same position but with even more debt.

ILoveYourVibes

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has the EU as an entity won the hearts of the people?

Hell no. But people need it and are pragmatic.

Danzy

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Nah.

Italy are just throwing it about to try and get more money. They are not stupid enough to try it and everyone knows.



Everyone knows breaking up the Union would be death right now. Except the British but i think its dawning on them.

And brexit has made it even more clear. I don't think we will be hearing of breaking up the union so much.

Italy is looking at a debt to GDP ration of 160 to 180% after this.

The question is whether an Italian default is avoidable?

Debt to GDP above 140% is usually considered as impossible to get out of without default or massive restructuring, ie default by slight of hand.

An average decline of 14% is forecast for the Eurozone this year.

Italy gets debt relief, western Europe gets stimulus or it's over.

That is the worst outcome, no one wants it but the numbers are stark.

Look to France Finland, Belgium, Spain and a few others as high concern as well.

The piss in a pot deal so far offered by the EU will not do it, and has been rightly dismissed by investors and economists inside and outside Europe.

AlekSmart

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has the EU as an entity won the hearts of the people?

I would say yes...although,perhaps not exactly among Europeens....theres a bit of an oul article in today's Irish Independent,with quite detailed accounts of who was embezzled...how much they were taken for,and....a VERY interesting Roscommon connection.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0414/1130294-covid-19-scam/

It's a long piece,and appears to involve the créme de la créme of Europe's Authorities,however for the TLDR's out there,the focus can be narrowed just a tad....

Money..lot's n'lots of it....

The investigation was launched when German health authorities made an upfront payment online of €1.5m for face masks, only to discover the website advertising the personal protective equipment (PPE) was being operated by scammers.

Add a cute hoore.....

So, despite the fact that he thought he was purchasing €14.7m worth of face masks, they did not exist on this website, he was never going to get not even one mask."

Pretending to be the legitimate company in Spain, the scammers said they could not deliver the masks but as a consolation, they referred the buyers to a 'trusted' dealer in Ireland.

The Irish middleman promised to put them in touch with a different supplier, this time in the Netherlands.

With all the Isolation going on about the place,this will no doubt set the Rosco Bush Telegraph a buzzin,as the County seeks out the intrepid entreprenur...:)

Looks like them staid oul lutheran minded middle Europeans have been isolated for a lot longer than we thought if they did'nt spot the HUGE warning signs hanging on this ?

Nearly €500,000 of those funds had already been sent to the UK, all of which was destined for an account in Nigeria.

Sheesh...who'd a thunk it :eek:

KyussB

Danzy wrote: »

...
Debt to GDP above 140% is usually considered as impossible to get out of without default or massive restructuring, ie default by slight of hand.
...

That figure tells you nothing about sustainability - it doesn't even factor in interest rates.

We had negative interest rates from late January to early March - we could have gone to 1000% Public Debt to GDP, and gotten paid €3 billion a year for it - and just kept the entire set of borrowed money in a bank account, to pay back in one huge lump sum in 10 years - earning the state €30 billion...

Danzy

KyussB wrote: »

That figure tells you nothing about sustainability - it doesn't even factor in interest rates.

We had negative interest rates from late January to early March - we could have gone to 1000% Public Debt to GDP, and gotten paid €3 billion a year for it - and just kept the entire set of borrowed money in a bank account, to pay back in one huge lump sum in 10 years - earning the state €30 billion...

That is true on sustainability.
In a low to possibly negative inflation rate this year, when will investors balk, the ECB isn't going to be the long term lender to all.

Adding more debt, even at cheap or negative rates isn't a long term solution.

Goldman Sachs predict a 35% reduction in GDP in the 2nd qtr in major economies.

More of the same was hardly keeping the Euro zone growing over the past 12 years, it will not reverse a crisis deeper, at the start, than 1929.

Is the will to back the Eurozone, to avoid or shorten a depression in Europe there?

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote:

Well at least you're honest on this one unlike the others who claim its "a figment of imagination" to suit their arguments, there has been plenty of talk about an EU army and mechanisms put in place to achieve this... God help us.. These nut jobs with an army...

I said it's going to take a lot of time. It's a a theoretical scenario at best and it may not happen in the end. So it's pointless to argue about it now and trying to even justify exit based on that. That's just outright stupid.
And as I said Ireland would get an opt-out or something. So this whole notion is irrelevant.

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote:

Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said: “The substance of what was agreed in 2004 has been retained. Really, what is gone is the term ‘constitution’.â€

There's no conspiracy. This is a known fact - that most of the constitution material was retained in the Lisbon Treaty.
And you know why? Because bloody 26 out of 28 agreed to it whilst only 2 didn't. So compromise was made - constitution was dropped but most was retained.

I don't recall France rejecting the Lisbon treaty.

ArchXStanton wrote:

No culture of deceit there what so eva..

No, no conspiracy.

Also you don't understand that constitution would have been a huge thing. Constitution means a foundation of the nation - the EU would have become a nation. Whereas another EU treaty is just another incremental step.

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

There's no conspiracy. This is a known fact - that most of the constitution material was retained in the Lisbon Treaty.
And you know why? Because bloody 26 out of 28 agreed to it whilst only 2 didn't. So compromise was made - constitution was dropped but most was retained.

I don't recall France rejecting the Lisbon treaty.


No, no conspiracy.

Also you don't understand that constitution would have been a huge thing. Constitution means a foundation of the nation - the EU would have become a nation. Whereas another EU treaty is just another incremental step.

All subsequent EU constitution referendums were cancelled in other countries when they seen the French and Dutch results, the Lisbon treaty was ratified by most member states(the people didn't get to vote on it) which was a nice way of bringing it in through the backdoor, except Ireland and we all know what happened here when you say no to the EU.
Did you ever read the Lisbon treaty? You'll be lucky if you make 5 pages into it and that would be good going for a treaty that was designed to be unreadable, even a lawyer friend of mine had great difficulty with it, I can guarantee not many if any at all, Irish ministers read it. The thinking was that leaders could just pass it off as another harmless EU treaty, nothing to see here...

Sarkozy is on record as saying that if the Lisbon treaty would have been put to the French people they would have rejected it as I'm sure many others would have if they got the chance to vote on it..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Constitution_referendum

"Every opinion poll on how people would vote in a referendum pointed to a "no" vote."

A speaker at the last Irexit event I attended (the one boards.ie posters tried to sabotage because ya know they're ALLL about democracy and free speech!) said it best" if the EU had its way it would vote the people out"

Kermit.de.frog

In case anyone is in any doubt as to why Germany said "no" to coronabonds or eurobonds

https://twitter.com/dlacalle_IA/status/1250406865638481931

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

No culture of deceit there what so eva..

I'll look forward to your mental somersaults on this...

Care to respond on the Irish global tax haven and OFC status?
Was that caused by the EU or Irish national politicians and policies?

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

All subsequent EU constitution referendums were cancelled in other countries when they seen the French and Dutch results, the Lisbon treaty was ratified by most member states(the people didn't get to vote on it) which was a nice way of bringing it in through the backdoor, except Ireland and we all know what happened here when you say no to the EU.
Did you ever read the Lisbon treaty? You'll be lucky if you make 5 pages into it and that would be good going for a treaty that was designed to be unreadable, even a lawyer friend of mine had great difficulty with it, I can guarantee not many if any at all, Irish ministers read it. The thinking was that leaders could just pass it off as another harmless EU treaty, nothing to see here...

Sarkozy is on record as saying that if the Lisbon treaty would have been put to the French people they would have rejected it as I'm sure many others would have if they got the chance to vote on it..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Constitution_referendum

"Every opinion poll on how people would vote in a referendum pointed to a "no" vote."

A speaker at the last Irexit event I attended (the one boards.ie posters tried to sabotage because ya know they're ALLL about democracy and free speech!) said it best" if the EU had its way it would vote the people out"

Do you have any evidence? UK is largely irrelevant at this stage.

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

Do you have any evidence? UK is largely irrelevant at this stage.

Evidence for what? , unlike you I've provided links to most of my claims, all you've slung around is "Putin's propaganda" "Russian bots" and one poster who claims I use "far right sites" as sources yet can't seem to produce the evidence of this when repeatedly asked....Well worn tactic