European leaders warn coronavirus breakup of union

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

Care to respond on the Irish global tax haven and OFC status?
Was that caused by the EU or Irish national politicians and policies?

I don't really know why you want some admission out of me over this, to be honest I'm completely 50/50 about it

ShatterAlan

Rufeo wrote: »

Yeah that will happen.

Why are you so cocksure?


Italy are absolutely livid with the arrogant and scrooge-like way that they were treated by the Dutch and the Germans. They got more help from Cuba and China while Germany witheld face-masks. Italy don't see too much advantage in relying on the snobby wealthy north to help them out when the chips are down. Sweden has gone it's own way during all this. Eastern Europe with the likes of Orban are still struggling to integrate with the European project and are turning to authoritarianism. Britain are already gone. The Union very well might not survive the fallout of all this in 3 to 5 years.

ShatterAlan

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The question changed. This is an other classic case of the EU being in a no win situation.

EU proposes something. People reject it. EU finds out why and changes the proposal. The people accept.

What exactly is wrong with this approach?

The UK has left the EU and the EU doesn't have a constitution so how was the popular will ignored?

Oh Bollocks "the question changed". That's the typical go-to for people who can't admit they were duped.


That's like me asking you "Can I shag your missus?"


You reply "no, and don't ask again""


So I ask "In that case may I ride the arse off your significant other?"


The question has changed, has it not? It's a cheap, slimy little word game on my part just like it was with the EU.

ArchXStanton

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Oh Bollocks "the question changed". That's the typical go-to for people who can't admit they were duped.


That's like me asking you "Can I shag your missus?"


You reply "no, and don't ask again""


So I ask "In that case may I ride the arse off your significant other?"


The question has changed, has it not? It's a cheap, slimy little word game on my part just like it was with the EU.

In the EU a Yes vote is forever. A No vote is only ever temporary...

sameoldname

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Why are you so cocksure?


Italy are absolutely livid with the arrogant and scrooge-like way that they were treated by the Dutch and the Germans. They got more help from Cuba and China while Germany witheld face-masks. Italy don't see too much advantage in relying on the snobby wealthy north to help them out when the chips are down. Sweden has gone it's own way during all this. Eastern Europe with the likes of Orban are still struggling to integrate with the European project and are turning to authoritarianism. Britain are already gone. The Union very well might not survive the fallout of all this in 3 to 5 years.

So you want Irish taxpayers on the hook for the debts of Italy, Greece, Spain etc. With absolutely no say in how they spend the money and absolutely no economic reforms? Because that's what they've been demanding. You'd be happier with that situation?

ShatterAlan

McGiver wrote: »

EU army is going to happen. But not in a way the eurosceptics think. It will be gradual and it's nothing which would happen any time soon.

If it happens Ireland is going to either get an opt-out or will be providing support staff (nurses or whatever) so shouldn't be a concern...

Didn't Ireland provide support staff in the form of fire brigades to Belfast and weather reports to the RAF during World War 2 and Wexford and North Strand got bombed by the Luftwaffe in response?



I'm not 100% certain this was the actual case but it's no more fanciful than the notion of Britain bombing Ireland, blaming it on Germany and trying to force Eire into the war on the Allied side. Nor is it any more fanciful to suggest that the British manipulated radio signals to steer the Luftwaffe away from Britain and towards Ireland. The Brits would have been beside themselves with glee if Germany had bombed Ireland purely by mistake.


You are either neutral of aligned. There is no middle ground. No wishy-washy grey area like you are trying to sell with your rear-echelon support staff bullsh1t.

McGiver

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Didn't Ireland provide support staff in the form of fire brigades to Belfast and weather reports to the RAF during World War 2 and Wexford and North Strand got bombed by the Luftwaffe in response?



I'm not 100% certain this was the actual case but it's no more fanciful than the notion of Britain bombing Ireland, blaming it on Germany and trying to force Eire into the war on the Allied side. Nor is it any more fanciful to suggest that the British manipulated radio signals to steer the Luftwaffe away from Britain and towards Ireland. The Brits would have been beside themselves with glee if Germany had bombed Ireland purely by mistake.


You are either neutral of aligned. There is no middle ground. No wishy-washy grey area like you are trying to sell with your rear-echelon support staff bullsh1t.

Right. So here you go - Ireland's neutral status is a farce. Air defence is outsourced to the UK, and there is a US refuelling base in Shannon. How is this exactly neutrality in true sense? Yeah right, it's not.
Switzerland is truly neutral for example. You need defence for that and a solid one. Not outsource it.

And WW2 is irrelevant at this stage.

Any other questions?

McGiver

ArchXStanton wrote: »

Evidence for what? , unlike you I've provided links to most of my claims, all you've slung around is "Putin's propaganda" "Russian bots" and one poster who claims I use "far right sites" as sources yet can't seem to produce the evidence of this when repeatedly asked....Well worn tactic

Actual evidence to non-conspiracy websites and trusted media. Do you have any?

ArchXStanton

McGiver wrote: »

Actual evidence to non-conspiracy websites and trusted media. Do you have any?

They look reputable enough to me, in fact if you check any of the other well known news sources they reported the exact same thing.... Let me guess though its all "Putin's propaganda"

Irish Praetorian

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Oh Bollocks "the question changed". That's the typical go-to for people who can't admit they were duped.


That's like me asking you "Can I shag your missus?"


You reply "no, and don't ask again""


So I ask "In that case may I ride the arse off your significant other?"


The question has changed, has it not? It's a cheap, slimy little word game on my part just like it was with the EU.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

In the EU a Yes vote is forever. A No vote is only ever temporary...

It's almost as if people are quite happy to be in the EU but want some changes over how it is run and the way in which certain reforms are implemented? One might even compare it to how we often elect governments, sometimes with great frequency, from different parties? As though people's views on what they want for their country might change - or in the case of Lisbon II when people were apparently so convinced of the 'No' side that they couldn't even keep a whole quarter of the voters from the first time around.

Also, I'm not quite sure the British example (namely Brexit) correlates with your suggestion of a vote for Yes being a vote forever.

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

It's almost as if people are quite happy to be in the EU but want some changes over how it is run and the way in which certain reforms are implemented? One might even compare it to how we often elect governments, sometimes with great frequency, from different parties? As though people's views on what they want for their country might change - or in the case of Lisbon II when people were apparently so convinced of the 'No' side that they couldn't even keep a whole quarter of the voters from the first time around.

Also, I'm not quite sure the British example (namely Brexit) correlates with your suggestion of a vote for Yes being a vote forever.

I'd say "vote yes for jobs" had a lot to do with the second time...anyone I spoke to said what part of no do they not understand..

Indeed how about we do a the best of 3 on referendums or start digging up old ones to see if we've changed our minds, these revotes only happen when the EU doesn't get the desired result "sorry you voted the wrong way there lads... Now let's try that again!"
Once the yes is achieved its case closed... Never to be revisited

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I'd say "vote yes for jobs" had a lot to do with the second time...anyone I spoke to said what part of no do they not understand..

Indeed how about we do a the best of 3 on referendums or start digging up old ones to see if we've changed our minds, these revotes only happen when the EU doesn't get the desired result "sorry you voted the wrong way there lads... Now let's try that again!"
Once the yes is achieved its case closed... Never to be revisited

So people only heard 'vote yes for jobs' and not 'vote no to NATO'? And much as I would be inclined to operate a government based on things you and people you know say, apparently those people you spoke to weren't part of the one and a quarter odd million who voted yes, so perhaps you should consider diversifying your social circle?

And again, I'm not sure if you've been following the Brexit vote, it's been something of a big thing here, and it does fly in the face of your idea of about contrary votes being ignored.

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So people only heard 'vote yes for jobs' and not 'vote no to NATO'? And much as I would be inclined to operate a government based on things you and people you know say, apparently those people you spoke to weren't part of the one and a quarter odd million who voted yes, so perhaps you should consider diversifying your social circle?

And again, I'm not sure if you've been following the Brexit vote, it's been something of a big thing here, and it does fly in the face of your idea of about contrary votes being ignored.

I think you have to remember the condition the country was in at that time... So yes "vote yes for jobs" was a huge incentive and a huge lie

The difference with brexit is they wouldn't get away with doing a revote on it, plenty of talk about it alright but the social disorder would be on a massive scale

ShatterAlan

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Nah.

Italy are just throwing it about to try and get more money. They are not stupid enough to try it and everyone knows.



Everyone knows breaking up the Union would be death right now. Except the British but i think its dawning on them.

And brexit has made it even more clear. I don't think we will be hearing of breaking up the union so much.

But why exactly would breaking up the union be "death"? Nobody can seem to explain this other than speculation about border traffic or trade deals. How exactly did countries and economies survive BEFORE the EU?

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I think you have to remember the condition the country was in at that time... So yes "vote yes for jobs" was a huge incentive and a huge lie

The difference with brexit is they wouldn't get away with doing a revote on it, plenty of talk about it alright but the social disorder would be on a massive scale

So you're saying it was a particularly effective lie? Or a lie that was just at the right place and time? If that's the case can we get a re-run on Brexit? I'm pretty sure that 'Germans will be begging for us to sell them cars' or 'easiest trade deal in history' has turned out to be nonsense. Or do only pro-EU people lie?

ShatterAlan

McGiver wrote: »

Right. So here you go - Ireland's neutral status is a farce. Air defence is outsourced to the UK, and there is a US refuelling base in Shannon. How is this exactly neutrality in true sense? Yeah right, it's not.
Switzerland is truly neutral for example. You need defence for that and a solid one. Not outsource it.

And WW2 is irrelevant at this stage.

Any other questions?

Switzerland is truly neutral is it? You've never heard of German panzers being manufactured in Switzerland and rolling straight off the production line into battle?

Irish Praetorian

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Switzerland is truly neutral is it? You've never heard of German panzers being manufactured in Switzerland and rolling straight off the production line into battle?

Actually I haven't (I presume you're talking about during WW2), can you link me?

Danzy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In case anyone is in any doubt as to why Germany said "no" to coronabonds or eurobonds

https://twitter.com/dlacalle_IA/status/1250406865638481931

That may be so and maybe it has a case but it needs to propose a solution.

This isn't something that it can hide from anymore.

Germany benefits extraordinarily from the dysfunction in the euro, it sells in a currency way to weak for its economic reality.

As a country it has the 3 largest defaults in the last 120 years on its books.

It can't hide from problems anymore or it will take down the euro.

Talking about the right or wrong of the EU or its political organisation is off topic.

This is all about how the EU can avoid a 1930s style depression.

ijohhj

Balf wrote: »

but anyone have a view.

I do.

What does WP be doing having any kind of opinion on EU dealings that don't involve them?:pac:

Eejits.

McGiver

ShatterAlan wrote:

Switzerland is truly neutral is it? You've never heard of German panzers being manufactured in Switzerland and rolling straight off the production line into battle?

WW2 is irrelevant. Switzerland is neutral right now. Care to respond to the Irish neutrality point instead of deflecting?

Danzy

McGiver wrote: »

WW2 is irrelevant. Switzerland is neutral right now. Care to respond to the Irish neutrality point instead of deflecting?

EU Armies, neutrality, Commission electoral politics are all now irrelevant.

McGiver

Danzy wrote: »

EU Armies, neutrality, Commission electoral politics are all now irrelevant.

Correct, largely yes. But I wanted to hear more on the alleged Irish neutrality since it was raised as a big issue.

A neutrality with essentially no army, navy and outsourcing of airspace defence is nothing but a pose.

LeinsterDub

The EU Commission president has offered a "heartfelt apology" to Italy for not helping at the start of its deadly coronavirus outbreak

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52311263
I'm sure this will be a spun by the anti EU mob as too little to late. While if it didn't happen they'd be howling for it to happen

ArchXStanton

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52311263
I'm sure this will be a spun by the anti EU mob as too little to late. While if it didn't happen they'd be howling for it to happen

To busy fawning over Greta.... and you want to hand this lot more power

Irish Praetorian

Danzy wrote: »

EU Armies, neutrality, Commission electoral politics are all now irrelevant.

We could actually go in to debate some of these if you like, rather than just cutting them and leaving the room.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

To busy fawning over Greta.... and you want to hand this lot more power.

From what you've been saying earlier I thought they already had power over us? A new USSR wasn't it?

Seriously though, what is it with all the Greta stuff these days? I'm a fairly pro-EU person but I've never followed her with much interest, I barely know she has something to do with the environment and the only time I seem to hear about her these days is something ranting about her; usually in the middle of a rant about 'cucks' and 'libtards' - what's the deal?

ArchXStanton

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

We could actually go in to debate some of these if you like, rather than just cutting them and leaving the room.



From what you've been saying earlier I thought they already had power over us? A new USSR wasn't it?

Seriously though, what is it with all the Greta stuff these days? I'm a fairly pro-EU person but I've never followed her with much interest, I barely know she has something to do with the environment and the only time I seem to hear about her these days is something ranting about her; usually in the middle of a rant about 'cucks' and 'libtards' - what's the deal?

If you keep an eye on EU social media, they were falling over themselves over Greta, barely a peep over Covid-19.... Then the furious Italians turned up in the comments...

It's a wannabe USSR... Just in the colour blue

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

To busy fawning over Greta.... and you want to hand this lot more power

What reliance does that have to the EU apology? It's completely unlinked

Irish Praetorian

ArchXStanton wrote: »

If you keep an eye on EU social media, they were falling over themselves over Greta, barely a peep over Covid-19.... Then the furious Italians turned up in the comments...

It's a wannabe USSR... Just in the colour blue

I'm sorry but I just can't take that kind of talk seriously. I mean maybe if we get Ursula von der Leyen going on about enemies of the people but otherwise this just sounds like 'everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi/Commie'.

LeinsterDub

ArchXStanton wrote: »

If you keep an eye on EU social media, they were falling over themselves over Greta, barely a peep over Covid-19.... Then the furious Italians turned up in the comments...

It's a wannabe USSR... Just in the colour blue

It's almost like time in linear and the Greta stuff happened before the Covid-19 stuff.

Hotblack Desiato

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Sweden has gone it's own way during all this.

So what. Health is not an EU competence.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Oh Bollocks "the question changed". That's the typical go-to for people who can't admit they were duped.

The ones who were duped were the ones who believed the BS claims and voted No.

Is the minimum wage €1.83 yet? Are we in NATO yet?

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Switzerland is truly neutral is it? You've never heard of German panzers being manufactured in Switzerland and rolling straight off the production line into battle?

Irrelevant. Sweden was neutral and sold arms to both sides.