Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

Ray Palmer

GocRh wrote: »

Not making stuff up. Some employers could be more flexible, however from my experience large MNCs are very vigilant when it comes to staff working overseas. Many will limit the number of days an employee can spend on a different jurisdiction - unless they're on the local payroll.

Perhaps the people you know are on the local payroll (e.g. Irish headquarted company with employees on a Spanish subsidiary) or are contractors, which is perfectly acceptable and very common on the IT industry. Or maybe they're just bending the rules, it is not easy to track movements of EU citizens within Europe on FOM rules so enforcement isn't straight forward.

US subjects (citizens and green card holders) need to declare all worldwide income to the US IRS. Generally speaking if there's no dual taxation agreement between the US and the foreign country, taxes paid abroad cannot be deducted from the US tax.

Agreed that the services industry will change drastically.

People claimed the tax issue is really complicated but it isn't. You pay the tax where the company you are doing the work even when resident elsewhere. So I know people working for MNCs paying UK, Germany, Italian etc... taxes while living and working in Ireland. All completely legal and catered for in the tax system. It is relatively flexible too if you are a self employed company owner which is how most people do it.
Yes people are making up claims of things being impossible,difficult when it is all possible and catered for. It is actually encouraged by EU laws and legislation.

Hubertj

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People claimed the tax issue is really complicated but it isn't. You pay the tax where the company you are doing the work even when resident elsewhere. So I know people working for MNCs paying UK, Germany, Italian etc... taxes while living and working in Ireland. All completely legal and catered for in the tax system. It is relatively flexible too if you are a self employed company owner which is how most people do it.
Yes people are making up claims of things being impossible,difficult when it is all possible and catered for. It is actually encouraged by EU laws and legislation.

You’re mistaken. From a corporation tax perspective, MNcs have to prove that the work carried out in Ireland is primarily carried out in Ireland. Reason for this is 1) Irish corporation tax rates - if they are paying Irish corporation tax the work is done in Ireland. Tax is 12.5% but if done in France it is likely 30%+. Audit by relevant revenue authorities in EU or the IRS are very very thorough. 2. US citizen do file tax returns as long as they hold a US passport no matter where they live. Irish tax and most EU income tax rates are higher than US meaning they file 0 returns.
Obviously teams collaborate across jurisdictions there are tax implications in terms of where projects are created, decision making processes etc.
Anyway, back to property.....

Hubertj

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People claimed the tax issue is really complicated but it isn't. You pay the tax where the company you are doing the work even when resident elsewhere. So I know people working for MNCs paying UK, Germany, Italian etc... taxes while living and working in Ireland. All completely legal and catered for in the tax system. It is relatively flexible too if you are a self employed company owner which is how most people do it.
Yes people are making up claims of things being impossible,difficult when it is all possible and catered for. It is actually encouraged by EU laws and legislation.

So you’re talking about contractors and not employees?

Donald Trump

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Given your user name you think you would understand USA insist on tax payments from all citizens resident or not. Look up Boris Johnson's tax issue with the USA.

Hi,


Could you not read my post?


There are double taxation treaties where taxes paid in one jurisdiction offset taxes due in another.


And yes, residency status does affect liability for different US taxes. As I mentioned, there are state level taxes and federal level taxes. A general "rule of thumb" is that you can avoid state level taxes by moving, but not federal taxes. To quote yourself - "look it up".

Ray Palmer

Hubertj wrote: »

So you’re talking about contractors and not employees?

Yes but one company provides employees form Portugal that work from there

awec

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People claimed the tax issue is really complicated but it isn't. You pay the tax where the company you are doing the work even when resident elsewhere. So I know people working for MNCs paying UK, Germany, Italian etc... taxes while living and working in Ireland. All completely legal and catered for in the tax system. It is relatively flexible too if you are a self employed company owner which is how most people do it.
Yes people are making up claims of things being impossible,difficult when it is all possible and catered for. It is actually encouraged by EU laws and legislation.

Yes, to do it usually involves giving up employee status and rights and becoming a contractor.

I have first hand experience of this. It is not something you can just do as you wish, there are strict rules around it. My own employer (tech multinational that has done remote working for years) has a strict number of days you are allowed to work outside the state, to the extent that employees were told that anyone who went home to another country to see out covid will have to stop working and take unpaid leave if they cannot get back to Ireland before their allowable days expire.

To do it more permanently requires more work, either transferring your employment to the legal entity in that country and having your salary and perks etc adjusted accordingly, or becoming a contractor.

deceit

I've been wfh for the last 2-3 years in Germany but my employer is in Ireland and all work I do is in Ireland.
Their were no issues for my employer to set this up for me. Living within the EU its not really a problem but outside it would become a lot more complicated if their are no double taxation provisions between the two countries.

Marius34

deceit wrote: »

I've been wfh for the last 2-3 years in Germany but my employer is in Ireland and all work I do is in Ireland.
Their were no issues for my employer to set this up for me. Living within the EU its not really a problem but outside it would become a lot more complicated if their are no double taxation provisions between the two countries.

You are German tax resident?
In you case, if you work directly for Irish company, you should submit your incomes to German and Irish tax man, which depending on case by case, likely may increase your overall tax.

timetogo1

Is this a tax thread?

Donald Trump

Ray Palmer wrote: »

People claimed the tax issue is really complicated but it isn't. You pay the tax where the company you are doing the work even when resident elsewhere. So I know people working for MNCs paying UK, Germany, Italian etc... taxes while living and working in Ireland. All completely legal and catered for in the tax system. It is relatively flexible too if you are a self employed company owner which is how most people do it.
Yes people are making up claims of things being impossible,difficult when it is all possible and catered for. It is actually encouraged by EU laws and legislation.

Hi, I know this isn't a tax thread. I know that there is a tenuous link from rent -> WFH -> working remotely for a company in another jurisdiction.
But the bit I bolded in your statement is not correct in general. It may be true within the EU, but I have never looked into that as I never worked in other countries within the EU.



If you are interested, as an example, you may read the relevant sections of the treaty between Ireland and USA here:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/documents/double-taxation-treaties/u/usa-1997.pdf


Article's 14 and 15 are what you want. Former for consulting, latter for employment as staff. Am not trying to start a discussion here. Just giving you some facts.



If you were to do some consulting work remotely, say for a company in NY, then that company is obliged to withhold 30% on the payment. In order to avoid that, you can fill out a W8-BEN, quoting the relevant article in the Tax-Treaty. Once they have that, they will give you 100% of the money and you pay your tax in Ireland. If you do not fill out the form, you will still be liable for your Irish tax - it will just be on an income reduced by 30%!

Graham

Mod Note

Feel free to continue the taxation debate in the Taxation forum over there ->

Assetbacked

EA office of Hunters on Waterloo Road has closed, citing a doubling of their rent last December with the covid19 crisis compounding the issue. Now the landlord has gotten just desserts with no rent for the foreseeable future.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/hunters-estate-agent-closes-flagship-dublin-4-branch-1.4252392?mode=amp

Hubertj

Assetbacked wrote: »

EA office of Hunters on Waterloo Road has closed, citing a doubling of their rent last December with the covid19 crisis compounding the issue. Now the landlord has gotten just desserts with no rent for the foreseeable future.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/hunters-estate-agent-closes-flagship-dublin-4-branch-1.4252392?mode=amp

i live up the road from this office.... there has been a planning application in the window for a few months (prior to Covd). change of use to food service / restaurant i think it said... will double check later on

Ozark707

Interesting rental has come on in a prime area at a very good price but could be affected by someone who was either STL or someone who had their tenant leave due to offices closing.

**On A Month to Month Basis Only**

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-rent/ballsbridge/10-anglesea-house-ballsbridge-court-serpentine-a-ballsbridge-dublin-2029738/

awec

Ozark707 wrote: »

Interesting rental has come on in a prime area at a very good price but could be affected by someone who was either STL or someone who had their tenant leave due to offices closing.




https://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-rent/ballsbridge/10-anglesea-house-ballsbridge-court-serpentine-a-ballsbridge-dublin-2029738/

I believe that entire apartment complex was or is in the process of being bought out by a developer.

Ozark707

awec wrote: »

I believe that entire apartment complex was or is in the process of being bought out by a developer.

Interesting, that makes sense so.

Muahahaha

Assetbacked wrote: »

EA office of Hunters on Waterloo Road has closed, citing a doubling of their rent last December with the covid19 crisis compounding the issue. Now the landlord has gotten just desserts with no rent for the foreseeable future.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/hunters-estate-agent-closes-flagship-dublin-4-branch-1.4252392?mode=amp

AFAIK Hunters is owned by Bidx1 (formally Allsops auction house) who occupy the offices above it in that building.

The landlord will be doing well to double the rent there to a restaurant/food outlet when things open up again.

Blut2

https://bl.ocks.org/pinsterdev/raw/234b4a5310a14a32e080/?s=volume

These are really interesting. The drop in rental prices, and increase in available rental properties, are really starting to show.

Hubertj

Blut2 wrote: »

https://bl.ocks.org/pinsterdev/raw/234b4a5310a14a32e080/?s=volume

These are really interesting. The drop in rental prices, and increase in available rental properties, are really starting to show.

will be very interesting to see what happens once restrictions are lifted. New balance between supply and demand but which way will it tilt.

Also what about tenants that agree a rent reduction where they are? They will pay less rent but that doesnt show in a Daft report. Do the CSO or someone publish that data? RTB?

Ozark707

Hubertj wrote: »

will be very interesting to see what happens once restrictions are lifted. New balance between supply and demand but which way will it tilt.

Also what about tenants that agree a rent reduction where they are? They will pay less rent but that doesnt show in a Daft report. Do the CSO or someone publish that data? RTB?

The CSO published figures for Q419 last week or the week before (so quite a lag). I think they are based on RTB figures. Not sure if you secure a rent reduction now if the RTB have to be informed? If not as you say it will cause the stats they produce to be skewed when they come to report in the next half year.

If supply keeps going up then I expect the June figures (from the source in the charts above) to show another drop in average prices but not to the same extent as we have seen since mid March.

Jjohnrockk

Gumbo wrote: »

Short term, many are back on the market, removed from Air BnB due to C19 and lack of tourists.

Tenants need to be mindful of the 6 month (Part 4) rule as I insignia the same properties will be back on the short term let scene in 6 months.

One thing which is a shocker in this country is so much in favor of landlords. In many counties with over supplies, tenant notice remain same I.e 1 month notice irrespective of tenure of stay. Tenants do get rights. Herr, why should notice increase to 42 days after 12 months. A landlord can rent a house in 30 days easily in Dublin. Everytime you loose a 20 days rental because In Dublin next landlord will not wait for 42 days notice.

Why people so not raise a voice.?

shenanagans

Jjohnrockk wrote: »

One thing which is a shocker in this country is so much in favor of landlords. In many counties with over supplies, tenant notice remain same I.e 1 month notice irrespective of tenure of stay. Tenants do get rights. Herr, why should notice increase to 42 days after 12 months. A landlord can rent a house in 30 days easily in Dublin. Everytime you loose a 20 days rental because In Dublin next landlord will not wait for 42 days notice.

Why people so not raise a voice.?

So much in favour of landlords??? Is that why so many have existed the market in recent years. This non sense makes me laugh.

If a LL had a non paying tenants have you any idea how long and how much it costs legally to get them out??

Do you know how much legislation has changed in favour of tenants??

Talk sense. Why do think so many LLs don't want long term tenants......the legislation is overwhelming in favour of tenants.

PommieBast

Jjohnrockk wrote: »

One thing which is a shocker in this country is so much in favor of landlords. In many counties with over supplies, tenant notice remain same I.e 1 month notice irrespective of tenure of stay. Tenants do get rights. Herr, why should notice increase to 42 days after 12 months. A landlord can rent a house in 30 days easily in Dublin. Everytime you loose a 20 days rental because In Dublin next landlord will not wait for 42 days notice.

Why people so not raise a voice.?

I don't see your point. Suggest reading https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notice-periods-that-a-landlord-should-give/

thequarefellow

shenanagans wrote: »

So much in favour of landlords??? Is that why so many have existed the market in recent years. This non sense makes me laugh.

I wonder is there any truth to that? Surely if there had been this exodus then there would be lots more houses being sold off? There was an IT article in 2018 (Why are landlords leaving the market in large numbers?) that is often quoted but when you actually read it, the author doesn't offer any evidence to back up the headline except to say "landlords, if one line of reasoning is followed, are departing the market in large numbers".

Besides, if it were true, I think it would be a good development. Housing needs to be decommodified

LJ12345

Hubertj wrote: »

will be very interesting to see what happens once restrictions are lifted. New balance between supply and demand but which way will it tilt.


I don’t think we’ll see the true picture until the restrictions and universities are back, a lot of students will have returned home and the option to STL or whatever people usually do over the summer is no longer there. I’d say a lot of young single folk have headed home, I know students and teachers who went home, some are still waiting to collect their things from their rooms so there may be a lot more availability in the near future.

Muahahaha

Blut2 wrote: »

These are really interesting. The drop in rental prices, and increase in available rental properties, are really starting to show.

That is interesting. I suppose the only thing you could say is that vacant apartments were coming from an extraordinarily low base. But its still remarkable that on Jan 1st there were 600 vacant but now that has rocketed up to 1,500 due to the pandemic.

Im still seeing ads on Daft looking to rent apartments on a month to month basis. I cant think of who would actually go for something like that where you could be gone with 30 days notice and left scrambling around to move house yet again. Doing one house move is stressful enough without having to do it twice in a matter of months.

Marius34

Jjohnrockk wrote: »

One thing which is a shocker in this country is so much in favor of landlords. In many counties with over supplies, tenant notice remain same I.e 1 month notice irrespective of tenure of stay. Tenants do get rights. Herr, why should notice increase to 42 days after 12 months. A landlord can rent a house in 30 days easily in Dublin. Everytime you loose a 20 days rental because In Dublin next landlord will not wait for 42 days notice.

Why people so not raise a voice.?

It's dangerous to put to much regulations in favor of tenants, sometimes it may result in opposite, and everyone loose. It needs to be looked from broader spectrum.
I have lived in Germany and Denmark. Normally the property in Germany comes unfurnished, and in Denmark you pay 3 months deposit, where a big chance you won't get whole back. You should return apartment as you got. Thus landlord has full rights to discount from deposit if you make even a minor damage.

thequarefellow

Marius34 wrote: »

It's dangerous to put to much regulations in favor of tenants, sometimes it may result in opposite, and everyone loose. It needs to be looked from broader spectrum.
I have lived in Germany and Denmark. Normally the property in Germany comes unfurnished, and in Denmark you pay 3 months deposit, where a big chance you won't get whole back. You should return apartment as you got. Thus landlord has full rights to discount from deposit if you make even a minor damage.

I hope that this never develops here. I have lived in such places and the consequence is apartments being full of the cheapest of Ikea/Argos type furniture and often piles of it on the street for dumping between tenancies.

I am a tenant, and even though I think that government policy should be geared towards supporting the owner-occupier model* at the expense of rental, I would prefer to have small time landlords than the big business and often foreign owned, vulture funded model that the government seem to be championing.

PommieBast

thequarefellow wrote: »

I wonder is there any truth to that? Surely if there had been this exodus then there would be lots more houses being sold off?

It is anecdotal but during all my property viewings last year there were two common themes: Properties were almost alwaya ex-rental, and like myself many of the other punters were being turfed out by landlords who were selling up.

shenanagans

thequarefellow wrote: »

I wonder is there any truth to that? Surely if there had been this exodus then there would be lots more houses being sold off? There was an IT article in 2018 (Why are landlords leaving the market in large numbers?) that is often quoted but when you actually read it, the author doesn't offer any evidence to back up the headline except to say "landlords, if one line of reasoning is followed, are departing the market in large numbers".

Besides, if it were true, I think it would be a good development. Housing needs to be decommodified

I don't have evidence to offer. But anyone following the property market in recent years can see very clearly that landlords have turned to alternative. Like Airbnb. Why???

Yes it's profitable. But it's also very restrictive. You have to onsite and available for guests......costs of cleaners..... contacting/responding to queries 24/7. It's not all as easy as it's portrayed. It's a 24/7 commitment. If you're away then you need someone to fill in and cover bookings etc. Why do it?? No commitment to long term tenants.......no getting your property thrashed by tenants......no legal fees to deal with non paying tenants etc.

Legislation all on favour of tenants on recent years. Nothing has been introduced to help decent LLs. If you get a bad tenant it's months of hassle with crazy legal fees and no compensation at the end.

I know several people who've had damage done to properties by tenants. It's not worth pursuing it legally as fees are more costs.......and nothing done to tenants on the end.

If we want a better rental market we need to protect decent tenants AND decent LLs.