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Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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    #2732
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Has there ever been as many people who can’t afford a house ?
    Yes there is a growing amount of people who won’t work that demand everything on a plate but there’s a lot of couples with both working can’t afford a house . Might be something to do with the ****e wages many employers get away with paying . There are some employers who need to pay minimum wage or close to it but there’s a hell of a lot of companies could afford to pay their staff a lot more than they do and still make plenty .


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    #2733
    Phat Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Phat Cat


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Has there ever been as many people who can’t afford a house ?
    Yes there is a growing amount of people who won’t work that demand everything on a plate but there’s a lot of couples with both working can’t afford a house . Might be something to do with the ****e wages many employers get away with paying . There are some employers who need to pay minimum wage or close to it but there’s a hell of a lot of companies could afford to pay their staff a lot more than they do and still make plenty .

    I think that's one of the main issues with renting in Dublin, the wages are too low compared to the current rental market valuations. I mean, back in the Celtic Tiger days, I had a lovely new one bedroom city center apartment for €900 per month. I saw the exact same apartment listed on Daft for €1750 around this time last year. I find it incredible that it nearly doubled in price in the space of 10 years. Yes I know, it's a landlords market and we don't have the supply to meet the demand, but it's not like wages have increased in the last 10 years to compensate all of the price hikes. It would be interesting to see how wages have risen since the 2000's in comparison to rent, house prices and the cost of living in general.


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    #2734
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Phat Cat wrote: »
    I think that's one of the main issues with renting in Dublin, the wages are too low compared to the current rental market valuations. I mean, back in the Celtic Tiger days, I had a lovely new one bedroom city center apartment for €900 per month. I saw the exact same apartment listed on Daft for €1750 around this time last year. I find it incredible that it nearly doubled in price in the space of 10 years. Yes I know, it's a landlords market and we don't have the supply to meet the demand, but it's not like wages have increased in the last 10 years to compensate all of the price hikes. It would be interesting to see how wages have risen since the 2000's in comparison to rent, house prices and the cost of living in general.


    What probably happened with that €900 euro apartment was that the rent was that in 2007, then suddenly dropped to €600 in 2008.
    Then remained like that until maybe 2015 with the owner eating that loss.
    After that the landlord tried to make up for that loss as rents started rising.
    Then rent controls came in and if the landlord was smart they would have upped the rent as high as they possibly could before that happened.
    And then upped it every chance they got since then as much as they could, because of rent controls too. If they couldnt make up that loss over the years, then they have probably sold up by now.


    And now today you have REITs and councils buying up everything and little supply for the average renter.


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    #2735
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,517 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Has there ever been as many people who can’t afford a house ?
    Yes there is a growing amount of people who won’t work that demand everything on a plate but there’s a lot of couples with both working can’t afford a house . Might be something to do with the ****e wages many employers get away with paying . There are some employers who need to pay minimum wage or close to it but there’s a hell of a lot of companies could afford to pay their staff a lot more than they do and still make plenty .

    If you look at the 1970s and 80s interest rates were sky high but the cost of the average house was typically much less than 3 times the average salary, i.e. less than you're able to borrow in a mortgage now, so very affordable. Housing was cheap. But other things were BONKERS expensive. A TV and VCR in the 80s could cost you about 25% of what your house would be worth, or equivalent to most of a years salary. A flight to England set you back about 3 months wages. Use of the telephone was extortionate. Most basic groceries milk, bread, eggs, meat, veg etc. have basically not changed in price, despite the wage growth. Any sort of decent clothes You'd have to pay for in installments. Altering and repairing clothes was an essential skill.


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    #2736
    Timing belt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you look at the 1970s and 80s interest rates were sky high but the cost of the average house was typically much less than 3 times the average salary, i.e. less than you're able to borrow in a mortgage now, so very affordable. Housing was cheap. But other things were BONKERS expensive. A TV and VCR in the 80s could cost you about 25% of what your house would be worth, or equivalent to most of a years salary. A flight to England set you back about 3 months wages. Use of the telephone was extortionate. Most basic groceries milk, bread, eggs, meat, veg etc. have basically not changed in price, despite the wage growth. Any sort of decent clothes You'd have to pay for in installments. Altering and repairing clothes was an essential skill.

    back in the 80's taxes were higher and there was limited work available....generation today are way better off


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    #2737
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you look at the 1970s and 80s interest rates were sky high but the cost of the average house was typically much less than 3 times the average salary, i.e. less than you're able to borrow in a mortgage now, so very affordable. Housing was cheap. But other things were BONKERS expensive. A TV and VCR in the 80s could cost you about 25% of what your house would be worth, or equivalent to most of a years salary. A flight to England set you back about 3 months wages. Use of the telephone was extortionate. Most basic groceries milk, bread, eggs, meat, veg etc. have basically not changed in price, despite the wage growth. Any sort of decent clothes You'd have to pay for in installments. Altering and repairing clothes was an essential skill.

    My folks house cost 72k in 80's, interest rate was 16%.
    there's no way tv & vcr cost 25% & they definitely didn't buy clothes on installments :rolleyes:


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    #2738
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Buying a TV in the 80's!

    LOL. It was rented, not bought.


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    #2739
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    My folks house cost 72k in 80's, interest rate was 16%.
    there's no way tv & vcr cost 25% & they definitely didn't buy clothes on installments :rolleyes:

    When I did my leaving cert in 1992, the overnight rate was 14.32%

    It wasn't as high as the peak in 1985 (think it hit 16.5%) but it was startling nonetheless.


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    #2740
    Garlinge
    Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Garlinge


    I inherited 250 sterling in 1980 which came to 400 punts I think. It was the cost of my first television which was a small colour maybe 16 inch. I had survived with an old black and white discarded by a relative up to then and four years of 'rabbits ears' as no cable TV... and four years of no telephone and this was in a Dublin suburb, new built in 1977.


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    #2741
    Timing belt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    When I did my leaving cert in 1992, the overnight rate was 14.32%

    It wasn't as high as the peak in 1985 (think it hit 16.5%) but it was startling nonetheless.

    To put this in context a 165k mortgage with 15% interest over 20 years has the same monthly repayment as a mortgage of 400k @ 3%.

    And you need to remember its a lot easier to get a mortgage now compared to the 80's


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    #2742
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Phat Cat wrote: »
    .............., back in the Celtic Tiger days, I had a lovely new one bedroom city center apartment for €900 per month. I saw the exact same apartment listed on Daft for €1750 around this time last year. I find it incredible that it nearly doubled in price in the space of 10 years...............

    2010 was a fair bit into the doldrums post Celtic Tiger. I think the sh1t has well and truly hit the fan by then.


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    #2743
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you look at the 1970s and 80s interest rates were sky high but the cost of the average house was typically much less than 3 times the average salary, i.e. less than you're able to borrow in a mortgage now, so very affordable. Housing was cheap. But other things were BONKERS expensive. A TV and VCR in the 80s could cost you about 25% of what your house would be worth, or equivalent to most of a years salary. A flight to England set you back about 3 months wages. Use of the telephone was extortionate. Most basic groceries milk, bread, eggs, meat, veg etc. have basically not changed in price, despite the wage growth. Any sort of decent clothes You'd have to pay for in installments. Altering and repairing clothes was an essential skill.

    and your house had almost no insulation, single pane windows, 1 bathroom, a back boiler for heating. The family might go on 1 holiday to wexford a year if even, there was 1 car in the driveway and every meal was home cooked.

    we've come a long long way.


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    #2744
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Timing belt wrote: »
    back in the 80's taxes were higher and there was limited work available....generation today are way better off


    Also these days you probably want to use 2x the average salary as a base, because double incomes are normal now when it comes to bidding on houses.


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    #2745
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,517 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    My folks house cost 72k in 80's, interest rate was 16%.
    there's no way tv & vcr cost 25% & they definitely didn't buy clothes on installments :rolleyes:

    this was a very expensive house at the time.


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    #2746
    vandriver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭vandriver


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you look at the 1970s and 80s interest rates were sky high but the cost of the average house was typically much less than 3 times the average salary, i.e. less than you're able to borrow in a mortgage now, so very affordable. Housing was cheap. But other things were BONKERS expensive. A TV and VCR in the 80s could cost you about 25% of what your house would be worth, or equivalent to most of a years salary. A flight to England set you back about 3 months wages. Use of the telephone was extortionate. Most basic groceries milk, bread, eggs, meat, veg etc. have basically not changed in price, despite the wage growth. Any sort of decent clothes You'd have to pay for in installments. Altering and repairing clothes was an essential skill.
    I bought a TV and VCR in 1985.Cost £975.Could you buy a house for £3,900?
    What do you think?
    A flight to England was about £100.A weeks wages for me and I was woefully underpaid.
    I have never bought clothes on 'easy terms'
    Your whole rant is frankly nonsense.


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    #2747
    Phat Cat
    Registered Users Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Phat Cat


    Augeo wrote: »
    2010 was a fair bit into the doldrums post Celtic Tiger. I think the sh1t has well and truly hit the fan by then.

    I had the apartment from 2004 to 2008 then moved to London, but my point still stands, rent has doubled since the 2000's


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    #2748
    Timing belt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    I know it’s not Dublin but interesting article on us rent arrears.

    ‘About 18% renters in America, or around 10 million people, were behind in their rent payments as of the beginning of the month.

    It is far more than the approximately 7 million homeowners who lost their properties to foreclosure during the subprime mortgage crisis and the ensuing Great Recession. And that happened over a five-year period. ‘

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/25/nearly-20percent-of-renters-in-america-are-behind-on-their-payments.html


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    #2749
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    Buying a TV in the 80's!

    LOL. It was rented, not bought.


    RTV rentals :)


    I remember my Dad bought a second hand Nordmende colour tv in 1982 from a TV repair man who lived a few doors down from us because the rented one kept needing repairs and they wanted double the price to rent a new one. He told me it cost a months wages to buy that Nordmende.

    We didnt get a VCR until 1989. £120 second hand. And it was probably about 5 years old at the time.


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    #2750
    jr1942
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭jr1942


    Can't compare basketball then and today, not to mention something as huge as construction sector and prices involved. Makes no sense.


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    #2751
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    jr1942 wrote: »
    Can't compare basketball then and today, not to mention something as huge as construction sector and prices involved. Makes no sense.


    True, but its amazing how many people think that somehow life was easier in the 80s.


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    #2752
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Phat Cat wrote: »
    I had the apartment from 2004 to 2008 then moved to London, but my point still stands, rent has doubled since the 2000's

    you are comparing the lows of the 2000s (2009/2010) to the absolute peak of the 2010s (18/19).

    Compare 2006/7 to 2016/7 and its not quite double.


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    #2753
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    True, but its amazing how many people think that somehow life was easier in the 80s.

    Absolutely was - out the back door, playing on bicycles, spectrum games and little homework - 80s were way easier than now!

    :pac:


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    #2754
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    km991148 wrote: »
    Absolutely was - out the back door, playing on bicycles, spectrum games and little homework - 80s were way easier than now!

    :pac:


    Well when you put it like that :)
    Brings back memories.

    I remember going to the community hall computer club (a couple of adults brought a spectrum, a bbc micro and a commodore64 for the kids to play games on. We werent interested in writing code) to get a go of a spectrum :) About 20 of us queued up to play jetpac on the spectrum.


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    #2755
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-2-bedroom-phoenix-park-racecourse-castleknock-dublin-15/2883334

    This is an interesting market development. IRES recently purchased c. 100 in the wider development. They are advertising these 2 beds for 1760, fully furnished for a brand new 2 bed apartment which haven't been rented before.

    Older 2 bed apartments have typically been commanding around 1800 mark here in the wider develooment so begs the question - why rent an older more expensive one if there's a new build for cheaper. Size etc may differ but interesting to see the prices they have advertised these at


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    #2756
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Browney7 wrote: »
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/apartment-2-bedroom-phoenix-park-racecourse-castleknock-dublin-15/2883334

    This is an interesting market development. IRES recently purchased c. 100 in the wider development. They are advertising these 2 beds for 1760, fully furnished for a brand new 2 bed apartment which haven't been rented before.

    Older 2 bed apartments have typically been commanding around 1800 mark here in the wider develooment so begs the question - why rent an older more expensive one if there's a new build for cheaper. Size etc may differ but interesting to see the prices they have advertised these at

    1760 seems expensive for the location but maybe a clever strategy to price just a few % under the going (advertised) rate. It certainly seems to be different to the usual one where they priced well above the competition and were happy to have them site vacant. Maybe cashflow is important after all.


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    #2757
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Ozark707 wrote: »
    1760 seems expensive for the location but maybe a clever strategy to price just a few % under the going (advertised) rate. It certainly seems to be different to the usual one where they priced well above the competition and were happy to have them site vacant. Maybe cashflow is important after all.


    Oh sorry - the last one at €1760 has just been let, however we do have these much nicer ones for €1900 per month if you want one of those :)


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    #2758
    HansKroenke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭HansKroenke


    The rent reductions don't seem to have been implemented across the institutional investors. Kennedy Wilson don't seem to have introduced any rent reductions to their rentals. If you go on Daft, KW alone must have a couple hundred of places available to rent but I don't notice any reductions in the advertised rents in the past year. Marina Village in Greystones reduced its rents around 10%.

    KW adverts on Daft (all are different apartments developments, with multiple units available to rent within each advertisement);

    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/capital-dock-residence-grand-canal-dublin-2/1443907
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-by-kennedy-wilson-south-circular-road-dublin-8/2511232
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/alto-vetro-grand-canal-square-dublin-2/2316503
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/liffey-trust-by-kennedy-wilson-the-point-village-dublin-1/2316767
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/northbank-apartments-castleforbes-road-dublin-1/2317419
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-2-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2330157
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-alliance-the-gasworks-barrow-street-dublin-4/2315171
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/sandford-lodge-ranelagh-dublin-6/2317385
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-grange-brewery-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/2319256
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-1-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2314412
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-south-circular-road-islandbridge-dublin-8/2316730


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    #2759
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Oh sorry - the last one at €1760 has just been let, however we do have these much nicer ones for €1900 per month if you want one of those :)

    No thanks 😊


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    #2760
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    HansKroenke wrote: »
    The rent reductions don't seem to have been implemented across the institutional investors. Kennedy Wilson don't seem to have introduced any rent reductions to their rentals. If you go on Daft, KW alone must have a couple hundred of places available to rent but I don't notice any reductions in the advertised rents in the past year. Marina Village in Greystones reduced its rents around 10%.

    KW adverts on Daft (all are different apartments developments, with multiple units available to rent within each advertisement);

    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/capital-dock-residence-grand-canal-dublin-2/1443907
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-by-kennedy-wilson-south-circular-road-dublin-8/2511232
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/alto-vetro-grand-canal-square-dublin-2/2316503
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/liffey-trust-by-kennedy-wilson-the-point-village-dublin-1/2316767
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/northbank-apartments-castleforbes-road-dublin-1/2317419
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-2-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2330157
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-alliance-the-gasworks-barrow-street-dublin-4/2315171
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/sandford-lodge-ranelagh-dublin-6/2317385
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-grange-brewery-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/2319256
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-1-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2314412
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-south-circular-road-islandbridge-dublin-8/2316730

    Wow didn’t realise that KW had such an extensive list of developments. I am guessing the likes of The Vantage in Central Park are probably feeling it more than some of their city centre locations.


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    #2761
    Timing belt
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    HansKroenke wrote: »
    The rent reductions don't seem to have been implemented across the institutional investors. Kennedy Wilson don't seem to have introduced any rent reductions to their rentals. If you go on Daft, KW alone must have a couple hundred of places available to rent but I don't notice any reductions in the advertised rents in the past year. Marina Village in Greystones reduced its rents around 10%.

    KW adverts on Daft (all are different apartments developments, with multiple units available to rent within each advertisement);

    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/capital-dock-residence-grand-canal-dublin-2/1443907
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-by-kennedy-wilson-south-circular-road-dublin-8/2511232
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/alto-vetro-grand-canal-square-dublin-2/2316503
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/liffey-trust-by-kennedy-wilson-the-point-village-dublin-1/2316767
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/northbank-apartments-castleforbes-road-dublin-1/2317419
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-2-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2330157
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-alliance-the-gasworks-barrow-street-dublin-4/2315171
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/sandford-lodge-ranelagh-dublin-6/2317385
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/the-grange-brewery-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/2319256
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/vantage-phase-1-central-park-leopardstown-dublin-18/2314412
    https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/clancy-quay-south-circular-road-islandbridge-dublin-8/2316730

    As of Q3 2020 they had a occupancy of 93% for the following 9 properties (so 145 units vacant)
    541136.JPG
    541137.JPG

    The also had the following 3 properties in lease up at the time (456 units) and the following under development
    541138.JPG

    Source:http://ir.kennedywilson.com/financial-information-and-sec-filings/quarterly-earnings-and-supplementals/2020


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