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Family member is an anti-vaxer

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    #92
    Siobhan82
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Siobhan82


    I think there's enormous aomunt of emotions related to the topic and the truth lies in between the two.
    Vaccines saved many lives and continue to do so. That's a fact. Yet when some of the main vaccine suppliers happen to be the company that got a whooping 3 billion $ fine and plead guilty to criminal charges including falsifying safety data on some of their drugs then that's a breeding ground for variety of theories. Most of them are load of nonsense, but some raise valid questions that are not being answered as both sides of the dispute see the world in black and white and refuse to open their mind to the possibility that they may not be always 100% right...


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    #93
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,995 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Perfect example of the both sides argument to try create doubt, perfect usage of the playbook. Lets break this down.
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    I think there's enormous aomunt of emotions related to the topic and the truth lies in between the two.
    Vaccines saved many lives and continue to do so. That's a fact.

    Vaccines work, so you know she is on your side. Now you can trust her.
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Yet when some of the main vaccine suppliers happen to be the company that got a whooping 3 billion $ fine and plead guilty to criminal charges including falsifying safety data on some of their drugs then that's a breeding ground for variety of theories.

    But you know those companies are not to be trusted. Referencing something that may or may not have happened, nothing specific. Just general "don't trust them commentary". Important point here is the set up for distrust in a general concept, in this case "Large pharma company = bad".
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Most of them are load of nonsense, but some raise valid questions that are not being answered as both sides of the dispute see the world in black and white and refuse to open their mind to the possibility that they may not be always 100% right...

    So, remembering that we started off with vaccines work, its a fact. Now we have questions though. This is after the trust me message, followed by the distrust them message.

    So now, without saying anything specific, you have created a element of doubt, referencing question. Can't say those questions here though, cause you will get shot down in seconds as they are stupid and baseless. So naturally you should google it and get your information from somebody other than those nasty large companies. And of course, some people will. And they will end up in a yes box of vaccines are evil and cause things to happen. Because as you see above, you can create doubt without actually saying anything specific. And everything you can read online once you open your mind can be true. Without getting too specific of course. And once a person came to a conclusion after investing "time" into it, you have them hook line and sinker. Their mind is made up, because they read up on it. They did their research and the Dr from Florida(Arts major) says they are bad with something that sounds technical.

    Boom, another anti-vaxer


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    #94
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Yet when some of the main vaccine suppliers happen to be the company that got a whooping 3 billion $ fine and plead guilty to criminal charges including falsifying safety data on some of their drugs then that's a breeding ground for variety of theories.

    And so they are named shamed and penalised to the extent of the law, like any corrupt business should be.

    Thousands of companies worldwide make vaccines. For the antivaxxers to be right all of them would have to be a) corrupt b) in cahoots.


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    #95
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭storker


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Perfect example of the both sides argument to try create doubt, perfect usage of the playbook. Lets break this down.

    As creationists like to say: "Teach the Controversy"...and for similar reasons.


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    #96
    Siobhan82
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Siobhan82


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    Perfect example of the both sides argument to try create doubt, perfect usage of the playbook. Lets break this down.



    Vaccines work, so you know she is on your side. Now you can trust her.



    But you know those companies are not to be trusted. Referencing something that may or may not have happened, nothing specific. Just general "don't trust them commentary". Important point here is the set up for distrust in a general concept, in this case "Large pharma company = bad".



    So, remembering that we started off with vaccines work, its a fact. Now we have questions though. This is after the trust me message, followed by the distrust them message.

    So now, without saying anything specific, you have created a element of doubt, referencing question. Can't say those questions here though, cause you will get shot down in seconds as they are stupid and baseless. So naturally you should google it and get your information from somebody other than those nasty large companies. And of course, some people will. And they will end up in a yes box of vaccines are evil and cause things to happen. Because as you see above, you can create doubt without actually saying anything specific. And everything you can read online once you open your mind can be true. Without getting too specific of course. And once a person came to a conclusion after investing "time" into it, you have them hook line and sinker. Their mind is made up, because they read up on it. They did their research and the Dr from Florida(Arts major) says they are bad with something that sounds technical.

    Boom, another anti-vaxer

    Does every discussion over that subject has to be so confrontational? Where there is only yes / no answer? I was trying not to get into the details but rather to talk about the shape of the overall discussion.
    The company I've mentioned is GSK and here are some of the links if you need to get into that in detail, but that was NOT the point of my post.
    I'm not allowed to post URL's so Google the Guardian /glaxosmithkline-fined-bribing-doctors-pharmaceuticals
    and BBC news /news/business-29274822
    I'm vaccinating my children if it's down to that.
    Also, I am not some sort of preacher who wants to convince anyone to anything, but since I was accused of malicious intent and manipulation I'd be more specific:
    The question that I find relevant and unanswered for example is the link between the presence of aluminium adjuvant in vaccines and increasing chances of food allergies.
    Here's some research papers:
    Article nr S1323893015313733 on sciencedirect com
    The American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology (AAAAI) /ask-the-expert/alum-vaccines - at the end of the article you'll find all the references to the relevant research papers
    Another is the existing law that allows to register a pharmaceutical product based on a registration from another EU country. So, for example, you can privately run all your tests and register the drug in Romania or Lativa and then here in Ireland we're obliged to accept that registration even if we might suspect that some parts of the process were compromised. That sort of regulations might create the impression that drug testing ex. new vaccine was not conducted in a trusted manner.


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    #97
    dubstarr
    Registered Users Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭dubstarr


    Dr Andrew Wakefield is the fella that was struck off.He stated that vaccines where linked to Autism.Which is crap.

    I do wonder,the anti vaxxers,do they get the flu shot.Take pain medication are on the pill.

    Thats something i have often wondered.


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    #98
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,135 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    dubstarr wrote: »
    Dr Andrew Wakefield is the fella that was struck off.He stated that vaccines where linked to Autism.Which is crap.

    I do wonder,the anti vaxxers,do they get the flu shot.Take pain medication are on the pill.

    Thats something i have often wondered.

    I could bet my last Euro on it if a vaccine is released for Covid 19 that most anti vaxxers will be first in the queue


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    #99
    Siobhan82
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Siobhan82


    dubstarr wrote: »
    Dr Andrew Wakefield is the fella that was struck off.He stated that vaccines where linked to Autism.Which is crap.

    I do wonder,the anti vaxxers,do they get the flu shot.Take pain medication are on the pill.

    Thats something i have often wondered.

    Where did I mentioned Autism? - facts not feelings please

    Food allergies are not Autism and I'm not the anti vaxer myself
    So do you find that questions relevant ?


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    #100
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    I think there's enormous aomunt of emotions related to the topic and the truth lies in between the two.
    No, the truth does not lie in some middle ground area depending on your opinion about the said truth. The truth is absolute and it is revealed by facts: vaccines are safe and they do work.


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    #101
    dubstarr
    Registered Users Posts: 13,762 ✭✭✭✭dubstarr


    Calhoun wrote: »
    This is a great answer, I would be very wary of letting my kids around anti-vaxxers until they had all their shots.

    This is an issue caused by the OPs brother, from recent posts I can see its only the "MMR" they don't have as if that's ok. There are some horrible outcomes out there for people who get measles or mumps I believe sterility being one of them.

    I really dislike anti-vaxxers also not only because of the recent pandemic but my eldest has autism and that is their go to misinformation when it comes to them. Its also the fact they are so selfish, their parents who remember the impact of not vaccinating so made sure they were sorted are now denying their own kids the same protection.

    @Siobhan82,i actually wasnt talking about your post.I was talking about the post i quoted.


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    #102
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    I think there's enormous aomunt of emotions related to the topic and the truth lies in between the two.
    Vaccines saved many lives and continue to do so. That's a fact. Yet when some of the main vaccine suppliers happen to be the company that got a whooping 3 billion $ fine and plead guilty to criminal charges including falsifying safety data on some of their drugs then that's a breeding ground for variety of theories. Most of them are load of nonsense, but some raise valid questions that are not being answered as both sides of the dispute see the world in black and white and refuse to open their mind to the possibility that they may not be always 100% right...

    Same companies that make paracetamol, aspirin, antibiotics, anti virals, chemotherapy etc etc. Do you think we should be suspicious of all of those too?


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    #103
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,995 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Does every discussion over that subject has to be so confrontational? Where there is only yes / no answer? I was trying not to get into the details but rather to talk about the shape of the overall discussion.

    Because the answer is yes or no. Do they work or don't they. They work. They stop working when people stop taking them. It's the inherent principal to vaccination. Trying to broaden the discussion is the same as asking the guy onto TV to prove his flat earth theory. its really just giving stupid people a soapbox to broadcast their stupid to the world.
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    The company I've mentioned is GSK and here are some of the links if you need to get into that in detail, but that was NOT the point of my post.
    I'm not allowed to post URL's so Google the Guardian /glaxosmithkline-fined-bribing-doctors-pharmaceuticals
    and BBC news /news/business-29274822

    Trying to link the hillbilly heroin epidemic in the US with vaccines is a stretch.
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    I'm vaccinating my children if it's down to that.

    Then why bring up the questions? I know why. Because your official position in this community is to pretend to do one thing, while trying to sow seeds of distrust. Same as the OP, ohh he got some vaccinations. Oh my child is vaccinated but have you seen those big scary pharma companies out to screw you. It's us versus them.

    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Also, I am not some sort of preacher who wants to convince anyone to anything, but since I was accused of malicious intent and manipulation I'd be more specific:
    The question that I find relevant and unanswered for example is the link between the presence of aluminium adjuvant in vaccines and increasing chances of food allergies.
    Here's some research papers:
    Article nr S1323893015313733 on sciencedirect com
    The American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology (AAAAI) /ask-the-expert/alum-vaccines - at the end of the article you'll find all the references to the relevant research papers

    That's saying the use of aluminum salts as adjuvants in the use of allergy vaccines might cause some reactions and could be replaced with other known compounds in that case. Because it could cause a reaction like hives(Type I hypersensitivity). This is also 20 years old.
    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Another is the existing law that allows to register a pharmaceutical product based on a registration from another EU country. So, for example, you can privately run all your tests and register the drug in Romania or Lativa and then here in Ireland we're obliged to accept that registration even if we might suspect that some parts of the process were compromised. That sort of regulations might create the impression that drug testing ex. new vaccine was not conducted in a trusted manner.

    In the odd or rare case this may happen, they leave themselves up to bankrupting lawsuits and we have systems in place in Europe to regulate this behaviour. And none of that relates to vaccines which have been floating around for 40+ years.


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    #104
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,596 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    Does every discussion over that subject has to be so confrontational? Where there is only yes / no answer?


    The answer to that is a resounding YES.

    Vaccinations work.

    Anything else is lies.


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    #105
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Siobhan82 wrote: »
    I think there's enormous aomunt of emotions related to the topic and the truth lies in between the two.
    Vaccines saved many lives and continue to do so. That's a fact. Yet when some of the main vaccine suppliers happen to be the company that got a whooping 3 billion $ fine and plead guilty to criminal charges including falsifying safety data on some of their drugs then that's a breeding ground for variety of theories. Most of them are load of nonsense, but some raise valid questions that are not being answered as both sides of the dispute see the world in black and white and refuse to open their mind to the possibility that they may not be always 100% right...

    Each vaccine needs to be measured on it's own merits. Any issues with a vaccine should not lead us calling into dispute the process/concept of Vaccination. Oddly enough, a quick search of "Vaccine Scandal," doesn't bring up much other than expired vaccines used in China a couple of years ago. That's a logistics issue in 1 country, that's got a whole host of other issues.


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