Boris Johnson out of hospital 12/04

The One Doctor

2u2me wrote: »

They may have covered up for the first few weeks, but the thousands of deaths currently are our own fault. China announced on 20th Jan that the virus was human-human tramissable while they and Taiwan went into lock down. We in the west just didn't take it seriously enough, myself included. South East Asia as a whole dealth with it pretty well, even though with their proximity stood the most risk. They learned from the previous cases in the last 2 decades that we did not.

On the 23rd of Jan the WHO still announced they had no evidence of human to human transmission outside of China.

To be fair, very few will trust the WHO after this.

s1ippy

theguzman wrote: »

No the blame is on the Chinese Communist Party, Chinese disgusting eating habits and the WHO that covered up the pandemic. Everyone who dies or is caught up in this leads firmly back to China.

Maybe it was their mother's fault for giving birth to them, or Eve because she ate the apple. Buck stops with Boris as far as the out of control spread of this in the UK (including NI) goes.

Rodin wrote: »

You are factually incorrect.
Spencer Perceval was the only Prime Minister to be murdered in office.

7 PMs have died in office, the most recent in 1865

I wonder if that makes Boris the first Prime Minister to willfully and publicly act in opposition to scientific recommendations with near-fatal or fatal consequences.

Hamsterchops

Nearly afraid to turn on the news tomorrow morning in case it's even worse than tonights news

Pseudonym121

Hmm, it seems I need to clarify my opinion - and let’s be clear I’m hardly involved in his care so I don’t know this 100% but I’ve been on more than my fair share of ICUs - unfortunately as both patient and doctor.

1. Boris Johnson definitely got preferential treatment to move into ICU but this wouldn’t have been because he didn’t need it. He wouldn’t have gotten moved to ICU just because he is PM. It just means that he would have been moved in earlier than others might have been moved give his deterioration. Others might have been monitored a bit more just to ensure it was absolutely necessary before moving. But don’t be fooled, him moving to ICU is a sign they’re concerned and he is unwell.

2. Everyone in ICU gets excellent care from a dedicated team/ allocated nurse. I’ve been on both sides of ICU and I’ve always found the staff to be top-notch professionals, kind and doing a really bloody tough job. It is bloody difficult work too. Some of my most difficult clinical decisions have been made in ICUs. I have deep respect for ICU nurses. They’re tough and top-notch professionals.

3. With that said let us examine how level of care can vary even when numbers allocated don’t. Let us imagine you have six beds and six nurses (just for ease of giving the example). All are trained. Nurse A has 2 years ICU experience, Nurse B has 3, nurse C has 5 years, Nurse D has 7 years. Nurse E has 10 years. Nurse F has 20 years and teaches the course to teach all the ICU nurses.

I would be very surprised if Nurse F wasn’t allocated to Boris Johnson. Obviously you can argue longest service may not equal the best. But the consultants will liaise with the nurses in charge and allocate whoever they believe the best nurse is to Boris Johnson. He is the Prime Minister after all. Would this happen normally? No, not at all. I’ve never allocated resources in any manner other than to provide the largest benefit to the greatest number of people. But he is the Prime Minister in a time of crisis Prioritising him and trying to ensure he lives provides a LOT of benefit to a LOT of people in term of continuity of government etc. So when you look at the greatest benefit to most people maxim and extend it out beyond the six people (including Boris Johnson) in our hypothetical ICU you can see how, in a crisis, this greater context impacts on decision-making.

Same goes with consults. Everyone gets consults but if you go in and you have to do consults on all 6 patients which one do you start with? The Prime Minister obviously. If he needs a chest X-ray is he going to be done last or first in ICU?

Does this mean the other patients in the ICU will suffer and get poor care or the doctors or nurses are unethical? No it doesn’t. The other patients will still get excellent care as good as any other ICU in the country but Boris will get that little bit above and beyond that little bit more quickly etc. Because he is the Prime Minister and while as a human he is no more valuable than another as the Prime Minister in that role he has additional value to the United Kingdom.

I really find it surprising that this seems to be so contentious or surprising to so many people. He is the Prime Minister, he is a particularly important person to the functioning of the state and so he warrants additional care above and beyond the excellent level of dedicated care which everyone in that ICU will get. Hell, if anything, they’ll probably benefit from him being there because the consults in general will happen more quickly - IMO.

No-one is impugning the ethics of the doctors or nurses but let’s be real here, he is the Prime Minister. Keeping him alive helps the stability of the state of 60+ million people and that’s a significant impact or on decision-making. In times of crisis factors outside of the six people in our hypothetical ICU do come into play. It isn’t a cuddly lovely thought but it is true.

Ps. There’s really no need for this mud-slinging and vitriol. I’m perfectly happy for people to have a different opinion than I. I reserve the right to think you’re completely wrong but there’s no need for name calling. Can we please try to be a bit more mature and kind to each other and recognise that decent people can disagree without us without us having to resort to mud-slinging?

Danzy

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They will print money. So will the UK. So will the US. So will everyone else.



I take it you're not involved with any tourism or export businesses then :rolleyes:

I am actually, 54% of my business is with external markets. Britain,Germany, France and Italy.


The Italian side is gone, not collapsed, as that implies something is still there lying on the ground, it's gone, gone, wiped out.

The French is still going, there should still be business there, we expect a 28% reduction.

Germany is slowing, Britain is slowing, both drastically but at least there are businesses and contacts still there.

I cannot stress the severity of what has happened to Italian businesses in the last month, ones that were successful, profitable and competitive, run by people I have dealt with, in some cases up to 8 years, same with everyone they know.

If the lockdown goes on another 6 weeks there I'd be concerned about them not being able to undo the damage to their economy and the stability of the State and its rule of law. It's that serious.

meeeeh

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That is overstating it. The machine of government is much bigger than one person.

The machine can fall apart very quickly. There are rumours of squabbling among ministers and ministers demanding for everything in writing to cover their arses because they are expecting an investigation about what went wrong after this is finished.

Johnson won't be back for quite a while so Raab and co will be in charge over the peak and probably over the easing of the measures. Machine can run nicely in normal times but in crisis you need someone who is not afraid to make decisions. And that's easier if you have the electoral backing. Johnson was elected by his party to lead and by people to be PM. Raab wasn't..

meeeeh

Rodin wrote: »

Of course they've one to one. That's the point.
Anything less like a one nurse to 2 patients would be a HDU (high dependency unit)
You've clearly never been in an ICU seeing the nurse at the end of the bed with her huge chart recording all the readings

I posted the link before, NHs relaxed standards that there can be one nurse for up to 6 patients. So no it is not necessarily one to one.

rainbowtrout

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That is a fair comment but they should be pressing No. 10 for further information. The guardian knew that St. Thomas Hospital was preparing a bed for Johnson from Wednesday. They know exactly what's going on - but are not reporting.

In an information vacuum, speculation fills the gap. We all know what an ICU is for and the British media is treating people for fools.

There may be some sort of government order for a media black out on this. Yes, the people need to know, but media coverage on Boris is in ICU and possibly on a ventilator, it could have serious implications for UK government, their economy, and how the rest of this crisis plays out over there. So information is only going to be released when absolutely necessary.

2u2me

meeeeh wrote: »

The machine can fall apart very quickly.

I heard something recently that stuck with me;
"A society is only ever 3 meals away from anarchy." Just checked it was Lenin.

Rodin

Rodin wrote: »

Of course they've one to one. That's the point.
Anything less like a one nurse to 2 patients would be a HDU (high dependency unit)
You've clearly never been in an ICU seeing the nurse at the end of the bed with her huge chart recording all the readings

I haven't spent much time in them but have on a few occasions. Wasn't one nurse per patient on those occasions.

Loafing Oaf

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There may be some sort of government order for a media black out on this. Yes, the people need to know, but media coverage on Boris is in ICU and possibly on a ventilator, it could have serious implications for UK government, their economy, and how the rest of this crisis plays out over there. So information is only going to be released when absolutely necessary.

You're making it sound like The Death of Stalin. If he really is in such a bad way we'll find out soon enough...

cj maxx

Rodin wrote: »

Of course they've one to one. That's the point.
Anything less like a one nurse to 2 patients would be a HDU (high dependency unit)
You've clearly never been in an ICU seeing the nurse at the end of the bed with her huge chart recording all the readings

No ICU is more about machinery keeping you alive and that being checked on at regular, close intervals not 1 on 1 care

uck51js9zml2yt

newirishman wrote: »

Nobody is insulting the people who work there. But day in day out giving everything they have? Give me a break. People are not machines.

But reg the UK Prime Minister getting preferential treatment, to quote the guardian



Of course his medical team will be there. Of course he will get preferred treatment. How many Joe Soaps would have a medical team.

Don’t know how this is an issue, I don’t see one. Does not diminish in any way the work of the people in the ICU.

I had a medical team when I had heart surgery. They said how I was treated and when.standard stuff to be fair

Junkyard Tom

fash wrote: »

I have some seriously bad news for you if you simultaneously believe the EU should get out of "politics" but then also at the very same time get into "politics"...

Schrodinger's EU.

Memnoch

Let's be clear, Boris Johnson is a vile, repugnant and monstrous human being who has been part of a regime that has inflicted incredible misery on countless British citizens over the past 10 years. He has not spared any thought to the suffering of his own citizens as he has sought to pursue every means to enrich himself and his friends and benefactors.

Even in this current crisis, his selfish and arrogant behavior has led to unimaginable suffering. Thousands of vulnerable people have died in extreme agony without ever having gotten near a hospital. Body recovery teams will be sent to retrieve their corpses from their homes. They did not receive the early comfort or care that Mr. Johnson would be able to avail off. There is every chance that they will not even be registered as victims of Covid 19 in the official British statistics.

There are many families who have completely needlessly already lost loved ones working in the NHS and there will be many more due to the political decisions of his government that have left them utterly exposed and treated as disposable cannon fodder.

His family and loved ones are of course completely innocent and they should have our complete sympathy.

Boris Johnson, however, deserves no more sympathy than any other mass murderer throughout human history.

joe40

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

When Boris Johnson decided to try and overcome the virus and keep the economy going with the 'herd immunity' approach, despite advice from the WHO and medical professionals in the UK and Europe, he made the mistake of thinking that only the poor, weak and infirm will get seriously ill from the virus. I don't think he thought for a second that he could catch this, infact it was only when very wealthy people in the UK - like the prince of Wales and other politicians started to catch Covid, that he changed his tune. I hope he gets well and all but it's because of him that so many people in the UK are sick and dying.

I never thought I would ever defend Boris Johnson, but the herd immunity strategy was supported by the chief medical officer in Britain, by all accounts a well respected medic and scientist. It wasn't Boris on a solo run. The swedes are still taking the same approach.
I detest Boris Johnson but I do believe he genuinely thought at the time, it was the best strategy in the long run.

bloodless_coup

Memnoch wrote: »

Let's be clear, Boris Johnson is a vile, repugnant and monstrous human being who has been part of a regime that has inflicted incredible misery on countless British citizens over the past 10 years. He has not spared any thought to the suffering of his own citizens as he has sought to pursue every means to enrich himself and his friends and benefactors.

Even in this current crisis, his selfish and arrogant behavior has led to unimaginable suffering. Thousands of vulnerable people have died in extreme agony without ever having gotten near a hospital. Body recovery teams will be sent to retrieve their corpses from their homes. They did not receive the early comfort or care that Mr. Johnson would be able to avail off. There is every chance that they will not even be registered as victims of Covid 19 in the official British statistics.

There are many families who have completely needlessly already lost loved ones working in the NHS and there will be many more due to the political decisions of his government that have left them utterly exposed and treated as disposable cannon fodder.

His family and loved ones are of course completely innocent and they should have our complete sympathy.

Boris Johnson, however, deserves no more sympathy than any other mass murderer throughout human history.

What movie is that from?

Memnoch

Memnoch wrote: »

Let's be clear, Boris Johnson is a vile, repugnant and monstrous human being who has been part of a regime that has inflicted incredible misery on countless British citizens over the past 10 years. He has not spared any thought to the suffering of his own citizens as he has sought to pursue every means to enrich himself and his friends and benefactors.

Even in this current crisis, his selfish and arrogant behavior has led to unimaginable suffering. Thousands of vulnerable people have died in extreme agony without ever having gotten near a hospital. Body recovery teams will be sent to retrieve their corpses from their homes. They did not receive the early comfort or care that Mr. Johnson would be able to avail off. There is every chance that they will not even be registered as victims of Covid 19 in the official British statistics.

There are many families who have completely needlessly already lost loved ones working in the NHS and there will be many more due to the political decisions of his government that have left them utterly exposed and treated as disposable cannon fodder.

His family and loved ones are of course completely innocent and they should have our complete sympathy.

Boris Johnson, however, deserves no more sympathy than any other mass murderer throughout human history.

Wow!

rainbowtrout

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

You're making it sound like The Death of Stalin. If he really is in such a bad way we'll find out soon enough...

Yes, but he is head of the UK government, and he's not the only member of their government with corona virus, albeit the one with the most severe case. It could cause a lot of unrest if it appears to the British public that no one is running the country during this crisis. If he makes a full recovery, then no harm done, but if his situation worsens, the cabinet will have to have a plan in place to continue managing the crisis and have someone in place to take Boris' place, and that's not just in the event of death, he may be incapacitated for quite some time.

Memnoch

joe40 wrote: »

I never thought I would ever defend Boris Johnson, but the herd immunity strategy was supported by the chief medical officer in Britain, by all accounts a well respected medic and scientist. It wasn't Boris on a solo run. The swedes are still taking the same approach.
I detest Boris Johnson but I do believe he genuinely thought at the time, it was the best strategy in the long run.

I would say that that is a naïve point of view. They pursued a political strategy and sought the advice that would enable them to follow it. Just like Tony Blair did on Iraq.

The One Doctor

Memnoch wrote: »

Let's be clear, Boris Johnson is a vile, repugnant and monstrous human being who has been part of a regime that has inflicted incredible misery on countless British citizens over the past 10 years. He has not spared any thought to the suffering of his own citizens as he has sought to pursue every means to enrich himself and his friends and benefactors.

Even in this current crisis, his selfish and arrogant behavior has led to unimaginable suffering. Thousands of vulnerable people have died in extreme agony without ever having gotten near a hospital. Body recovery teams will be sent to retrieve their corpses from their homes. They did not receive the early comfort or care that Mr. Johnson would be able to avail off. There is every chance that they will not even be registered as victims of Covid 19 in the official British statistics.

There are many families who have completely needlessly already lost loved ones working in the NHS and there will be many more due to the political decisions of his government that have left them utterly exposed and treated as disposable cannon fodder.

His family and loved ones are of course completely innocent and they should have our complete sympathy.

Boris Johnson, however, deserves no more sympathy than any other mass murderer throughout human history.

I'm no fan, but mass murderer? Come on, your hyperbole dictionary is broken. Stalin killed millions, so did Hitler and Pol Pot and Charlie Haughey, but Johnson? Seriously? Get back into your internet cave, man.

Memnoch

Johnson has killed thousands in the last couple of weeks alone. That makes him a mass murderer.

joe40

Memnoch wrote: »

I would say that that is a naïve point of view. They pursued a political strategy and sought the advice that would enable them to follow it. Just like Tony Blair did on Iraq.

It was their chief medical officer.

Memnoch

joe40 wrote: »

It was their chief medical officer.

You can choose to believe that the advice that was given and the decision that was made was completely apolitical. It clearly was not when Dominic Cummings was quoted by the Sunday Times as having said that he was happy to let the elderly die.

2u2me

Memnoch wrote: »

Johnson has killed thousands in the last couple of weeks alone. That makes him a mass murderer.

If the hospitals start spilling over with people I think you can start to attribute deaths to them but until then it seems unfair.

Danzy

Memnoch wrote: »

Let's be clear, Boris Johnson is a vile, repugnant and monstrous human being who has been part of a regime that has inflicted incredible misery on countless British citizens over the past 10 years. He has not spared any thought to the suffering of his own citizens as he has sought to pursue every means to enrich himself and his friends and benefactors.

Even in this current crisis, his selfish and arrogant behavior has led to unimaginable suffering. Thousands of vulnerable people have died in extreme agony without ever having gotten near a hospital. Body recovery teams will be sent to retrieve their corpses from their homes. They did not receive the early comfort or care that Mr. Johnson would be able to avail off. There is every chance that they will not even be registered as victims of Covid 19 in the official British statistics.

There are many families who have completely needlessly already lost loved ones working in the NHS and there will be many more due to the political decisions of his government that have left them utterly exposed and treated as disposable cannon fodder.

His family and loved ones are of course completely innocent and they should have our complete sympathy.

Boris Johnson, however, deserves no more sympathy than any other mass murderer throughout human history.

I'd disagree with Boris on most politics but posts like yours make me thank God that he won and not that righteous Bishop Corbyn and his poisonous fans.

Cork Boy 53

The One Doctor wrote: »

I'm no fan, but mass murderer? Come on, your hyperbole dictionary is broken. Stalin killed millions, so did Hitler and Pol Pot and Charlie Haughey, but Johnson? Seriously? Get back into your internet cave, man.

Haughey killed millions? News to me.

Danzy

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Haughey killed millions? News to me.

He made a killing of millions?

Arghus

Memnoch wrote: »

You can choose to believe that the advice that was given and the decision that was made was completely apolitical. It clearly was not when Dominic Cummings was quoted by the Sunday Times as having said that he was happy to let the elderly die.

Despite your rhetoric, you don't strike me as a compassionate person.

Sardonicat

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

Haughey killed millions? News to me.

He made millions, I thought.