Boris Johnson out of hospital 12/04

Memnoch

2u2me wrote: »

If the hospitals start spilling over with people I think you can start to attribute deaths to them but until then it seems unfair.

Not at all. The British mortality rate is incredible. They are losing as many people per day as Spain and Italy were after their health systems crumbled. We can estimate that anywhere from 25 to 100% extra people have died and are dying in the community that are not being counted and that have not been brought to hospital.

Compare this to the numbers in Ireland, Germany, South Korea and even Canada. Johnson and Cummings were happy to let the elderly die. And that is exactly what is happening. But unlike Johnson they are not even getting to a hospital to receive any comfort or treatment.

Of course this is not new with the conservative party. Each year thousands of elderly people die because they cannot afford to heat their homes after their winter fuel allowance was cut. Oxford University did a study a few years ago that estimated 15,000 extra deaths in a year as a result of conservative cuts to the health service. Disabled people have committed suicide in the UK after being subjected to humiliating ability tests by bureaucrats with no medical training.

This is entirely on form for the Tories.

Memnoch

Arghus wrote: »

Despite your rhetoric, you don't strike me as a compassionate person.

I feel a great amount of compassion for the terrible suffering of countless innocent people because of selfish narcissists like Boris Johnson. This is dwarfed only by my anger at this thoughtless and needless cruelty.

Danzy

Memnoch wrote: »

I feel a great amount of compassion for the terrible suffering of countless innocent people because of selfish narcissists like Boris Johnson. This is dwarfed only by my anger at this thoughtless and needless cruelty.

https://youtu.be/T-K8qi_AoXI

2u2me

Memnoch wrote: »

Compare this to the numbers in Ireland, Germany, South Korea and even Canada. Johnson and Cummings were happy to let the elderly die. And that is exactly what is happening. But unlike Johnson they are not even getting to a hospital to receive any comfort or treatment.

I'm sure they were happy to let their parents die.

Is the social democrat Stefan Löfven a mass murderer too?

Memnoch

2u2me wrote: »

I'm sure they were happy to let their parents die.

Is the social democrat Stefan Löfven a mass murderer too?

I don't follow Swedish politics or current affairs closely enough to know whether they acted through greed and avarice like Johnson or foolishness and arrogance. So I can't comment on that.

bloodless_coup

For all the "compassion" and "tolerance" some people of a particular politcial leaning claim to have, they seem so full of pure hate and vitriol for particular people.

2u2me

Memnoch wrote: »

I don't follow Swedish politics or current affairs closely enough to know whether they acted through greed and avarice like Johnson or foolishness and arrogance. So I can't comment on that.

How do you know Johnson acted through greed?

Danzy

Memnoch wrote: »

I don't follow Swedish politics or current affairs closely enough to know whether they acted through greed and avarice like Johnson or foolishness and arrogance. So I can't comment on that.

That is such a Bishop's response, Jesuitical.

threeball

Memnoch wrote: »

Not at all. The British mortality rate is incredible. They are losing as many people per day as Spain and Italy were after their health systems crumbled. We can estimate that anywhere from 25 to 100% extra people have died and are dying in the community that are not being counted and that have not been brought to hospital.

Compare this to the numbers in Ireland, Germany, South Korea and even Canada. Johnson and Cummings were happy to let the elderly die. And that is exactly what is happening. But unlike Johnson they are not even getting to a hospital to receive any comfort or treatment.

Of course this is not new with the conservative party. Each year thousands of elderly people die because they cannot afford to heat their homes after their winter fuel allowance was cut. Oxford University did a study a few years ago that estimated 15,000 extra deaths in a year as a result of conservative cuts to the health service. Disabled people have committed suicide in the UK after being subjected to humiliating ability tests by bureaucrats with no medical training.

This is entirely on form for the Tories.

There was a piece on the news, sky or bbc, with disabled people begging not to be slapped with a dnr just because they had a disability but it looked like a policy the hospitals would follow. Heart breaking to watch. If DNRs are being handed out id be starting with those with multiple criminal convictions and working from there. Certainly not a disabled person who has struggled their entire life just to be tossed aside.

Richard Hillman

I remember recently when people were saying Re: Corbyn that socialism has killed tens of millions of people, probably going up to hundreds. Folk scoffed at the thought of a blood thirsty Corbyn killing people but it was never himself that was the worry it was his bloodthirsty followers that were the worry. And now we can see that thirst for blood. Whatever happened to that kinder, gentler politics?

Whatever happens to Boris, he saved the United Kingdom from Socialism. We didn't think much of it at the time but he gathered the support to reject an evil that would have killed many many people through cold blooded murder.

threeball

I think theres been a few lads at the spirits cabinet tonight.

Scuid Mhór

threeball wrote: »

There was a piece on the news, sky or bbc, with disabled people begging not to be slapped with a dnr just because they had a disability but it looked like a policy the hospitals would follow. Heart breaking to watch. If DNRs are being handed out id be starting with those with multiple criminal convictions and working from there. Certainly not a disabled person who has struggled their entire life just to be tossed aside.

Is DNR "do not resuscitate"? Am I reading this right that the UK government would be giving DNR to this group of people because their life would be seen as "less valuable" in comparison to someone else who might need a ventilator? Not trying to be funny, legitimately just want to understand this post.

threeball

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Is DNR "do not resuscitate"? Am I reading this right that the UK government would be giving DNR to this group of people because their life would be seen as "less valuable" in comparison to someone else who might need a ventilator? Not trying to be funny, legitimately just want to understand this post.

Yes its a do not resuscitate. They would not be given ventilators ahead of a perceived healthier person. You could have a paedophile and a disabled person lying side by side and the protocol would be to resuscitate the paedophile. Im not saying it was a government dictat, but it was policy at hospital level.

Danzy

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Is DNR "do not resuscitate"? Am I reading this right that the UK government would be giving DNR to this group of people because their life would be seen as "less valuable" in comparison to someone else who might need a ventilator? Not trying to be funny, legitimately just want to understand this post.

Triage, who is more likely to survive than another.

No point in having a person who has no or little chance on a ventilator for a week.

Hard stuff and something I'm glad I do not have to make.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

Yes its a do not resuscitate. They would not be given ventilators ahead of a perceived healthier person. You could have a paedophile and a disabled person lying side by side and the protocol would be to resuscitate the paedophile. Im not saying it was a government dictat, but it was policy at hospital level.

I don't believe such a decision can be made by civilian medical staff under normal circumstances. They are required to do all in their power for the patient in front of them. In fact, it's against discrimination laws.

War and major catastrophies you can triage in such a manner based on survival chances but it can't be a pre made decision even then

Pseudonym121

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

Is DNR "do not resuscitate"? Am I reading this right that the UK government would be giving DNR to this group of people because their life would be seen as "less valuable" in comparison to someone else who might need a ventilator? Not trying to be funny, legitimately just want to understand this post.

It wouldn’t be the government but doctors often make decisions about who is and who isn’t suitable for resuscitation. Usually the individual and family are asked and their views carry great weight but when push comes to shove the doctors make the call and are not obligated to resus you if you want to be resused. This happened even before this crisis.

In this crisis if the public doesn’t lessen the curve enough then the system will get overwhelmed and these hard calls will have to be made. Hard calls have already been made, harder calls may have to be made. Fortunately things are looking better today than we could have reasonably expected two weeks ago so that’s good news.

As to this not being done under normal circumstances. Sure it is. Here’s a hypothetical. You’ve got one ventilator and an 80 year old who will die without it and a 20 year old who will die without it. You know whoever you out on it will survive and live to the ripe old age of 85. You’re the consultant in charge. You CANNOT transfer any patient to another hospital and you CANNOT magically create new ventilators. If you don’t decide both die. You’ve got 2 minutes to decide.

The way this works is that by ventilating the twenty year old you gain 65 years of life. By ventilating the 80 year old you gain five years of life. So you ventilate the 20 year old and as the Consultant who made the call you call in the 80 year old’s family and tell them you did all you could. Resources, even in normal times, aren’t infinite and doctors have to weigh one life vs the other all the time.

Every time we decide to treat person A we choose not to treat all the other people who could have had that operation/treatment and condemn them to a longer period of time in pain/ discomfort/of disability / or of higher risk of mortality while awaiting the procedure. This is what weighs on our minds in the evenings when we are at home and things are a bit quieter. Making the decision is the way part. Living with it afterwards is hard.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

Triage, who is more likely to survive than another.

No point in having a person who has no or little chance on a ventilator for a week.

Hard stuff and something I'm glad I do not have to make.

That's not how triage works in hospitals. Triage nurses prioritise based on medical need and urgency

doylefe

doylefe wrote: »

For all the "compassion" and "tolerance" some people of a particular politcial leaning claim to have, they seem so full of pure hate and vitriol for particular people.

Yeah..
Motivated by hate..

Pseudonym121

Pseudonym121 wrote: »

It wouldn’t be the government but doctors often make decisions about who is and who isn’t suitable for resuscitation. Usually the individual and family are asked and their views carry great weight but when push comes to shove the doctors make the call and are not obligated to resus you if you want to be resused. This happened even before this crisis.

In this crisis if the public doesn’t lessen the curve enough then the system will get overwhelmed and these hard calls will have to be made. Hard calls have already been made, harder calls may have to be made. Fortunately things are looking better today than we could have reasonably expected two weeks ago so that’s good news.

Wtf?!? You are a doctor stating that you can simple decide but to bother trying to resuscitate a patient?

threeball

threeball wrote: »

There was a piece on the news, sky or bbc, with disabled people begging not to be slapped with a dnr just because they had a disability but it looked like a policy the hospitals would follow. Heart breaking to watch. If DNRs are being handed out id be starting with those with multiple criminal convictions and working from there. Certainly not a disabled person who has struggled their entire life just to be tossed aside.

When a loved one becomes very ill to the point that only ventilation might prolong life the doctor has a frank discussion with you, and if it is understood that the person by virtue of age or other medical condition would have an absolute dire quality of life after being on a ventilator, then the decision is normally not to put the person on one. Ventilation can be very damaging in itself to the lungs, profound cognitive changes can result, and it is a huge uphill battle to redevelop enough respiratory muscle to breath normally again. If the person is too frail for any reason, weaning off a ventilator may be impossible. I’ve been on this territory of discussion with doctors, have come to understand the biology of it and that is genuinely not discrimination against disabled or elderly. Of course this is a more clear-cut decision in some cases than in others, and if there is “competition” for available ventilators then the person more likely to survive would be afforded one in preference to a person who is less likely to survive and have any quality of life left. A ventilator may keep somebody alive (and it can kill too by damaging the lungs and causing ARDS) but it is not guaranteed that the brain will survive well due to prolonged shortage of oxygen. People who have just about survived ventilation often have the cognitive status of a person who is recovering from a severe head injury. All this must be born in mind.

Scuid Mhór

threeball wrote: »

Yes its a do not resuscitate. They would not be given ventilators ahead of a perceived healthier person. You could have a paedophile and a disabled person lying side by side and the protocol would be to resuscitate the paedophile. Im not saying it was a government dictat, but it was policy at hospital level.

Danzy wrote: »

Triage, who is more likely to survive than another.

No point in having a person who has no or little chance on a ventilator for a week.

Hard stuff and something I'm glad I do not have to make.

Thanks to both of you for clearing that up. Very difficult decisions for sure. I wonder if they'll be calling the ethical consultants in for this one.

(And yeah threeball I totally understand your point, that's morally abhorrent.)

Danzy

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I don't believe such a decision can be made by civilian medical staff under normal circumstances. They are required to do all in their power for the patient in front of them. In fact, it's against discrimination laws.

War and major catastrophies you can triage in such a manner based on survival chances but it can't be a pre made decision even then

In Italy and Spain it was pre made, people were left die based on age, underlying symptoms.

The same will be done here, in Britain, on America etc if need arises, they are talking about burying the dead in local parks in New York, temporarily.
These are not normal circumstances.

s1ippy

threeball wrote: »

There was a piece on the news, sky or bbc, with disabled people begging not to be slapped with a dnr just because they had a disability but it looked like a policy the hospitals would follow. Heart breaking to watch. If DNRs are being handed out id be starting with those with multiple criminal convictions and working from there. Certainly not a disabled person who has struggled their entire life just to be tossed aside.

Aw I don't agree with your last bit. While people with disabilities should absolutely not get DNRs if their expectancy and quality of life isn't gravely impacted, suggesting medical staff impose an unnecessary death sentence on criminals isn't an answer to the issue either. In the same way Boris doesn't deserve to be left to die in spite of his actions resulting in the deaths of many others.

ShineOn7

Pseudonym121 wrote: »

In this crisis if the public doesn’t lessen the curve enough then the system will get overwhelmed and these hard calls will have to be made. Hard calls have already been made, harder calls may have to be made. Fortunately things are looking better today than we could have reasonably expected two weeks ago so that’s good news.

Why would Irish hospitals already have to have made hard calls when ICU capacity hasn't overflowed yet?

Scuid Mhór

Pseudonym121 wrote: »

It wouldn’t be the government but doctors often make decisions about who is and who isn’t suitable for resuscitation. Usually the individual and family are asked and their views carry great weight but when push comes to shove the doctors make the call and are not obligated to resus you if you want to be resused. This happened even before this crisis.

In this crisis if the public doesn’t lessen the curve enough then the system will get overwhelmed and these hard calls will have to be made. Hard calls have already been made, harder calls may have to be made. Fortunately things are looking better today than we could have reasonably expected two weeks ago so that’s good news.

I understand. It's the true allocation of scarce resources.

While I'm here Pseudonym121 and on the off chance you are spending your valuable time reading my unworthy posts, let me just extend my appreciation to you for everything you've done on boards over the last few months. You've given the truth to us as it is within the system at present and even though some of it is discomforting, I think that level of honesty has been reassuring for many of us.

No doubt you are a much bigger asset in the medical field atm, but you've been a great asset to boards and anyone who posts here regularly. Thanks for all of the effort you've put into your posts when you really didn't have to.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

In Italy and Spain it was pre made, people were left die based on age, underlying symptoms.

The same will be done here, in Britain, on America etc if need arises, they are talking about burying the dead in local parks in New York, temporarily.
These are not normal circumstances.

As a person separated from his Spanish wife and kids due to flight restrictions I can assure you that's not true. There's an isolated case and the people responsible will be tried for it.

Don't believe the daily mail

Strumms

Rodin wrote: »

You are factually incorrect.
Spencer Perceval was the only Prime Minister to be murdered in office.

7 PMs have died in office, the most recent in 1865

Yes I stand corrected, I was searching for last to die but I was provided with last murdered.. weird... anyway, hopefully it’s not a stat that’s changing anytime soon.

lalababa

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I remember recently when people were saying Re: Corbyn that socialism has killed tens of millions of people, probably going up to hundreds. Folk scoffed at the thought of a blood thirsty Corbyn killing people but it was never himself that was the worry it was his bloodthirsty followers that were the worry. And now we can see that thirst for blood. Whatever happened to that kinder, gentler politics?

Whatever happens to Boris, he saved the United Kingdom from Socialism. We didn't think much of it at the time but he gathered the support to reject an evil that would have killed many many people through cold blooded murder.

Yes we have been saved from Count Corbyn and his bloodsucking corbynistas,...... and in more news from the Daily Mail.....

Pseudonym121

In mass casualty events triage doctors and nurses triage based on resources vs survivability. You can google mass casualty ethical triage or black tagging to find out more about how that works.

Here’s a link which can explain more. But google it yourself so you can see I haven’t cherry-picked a site. They explain what black tagging is.
https://www.medicinenet.com/medical_triage_code_tags_and_triage_terminology/views.htm#

ShineOn7

threeball wrote: »

There was a piece on the news, sky or bbc, with disabled people begging not to be slapped with a dnr just because they had a disability but it looked like a policy the hospitals would follow. Heart breaking to watch. If DNRs are being handed out id be starting with those with multiple criminal convictions and working from there. Certainly not a disabled person who has struggled their entire life just to be tossed aside.

Naw. That can't be right

So you're saying that it was on Sky or the BBC that if people with a disability with Covid are presented the hospital issues a DNR?

Surely that goes against some sort of UN basic human rights