Boris Johnson out of hospital 12/04

easypazz

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

Michael Gove has said that Boris is not on a ventilator so that probably means he is on a ventilator.

There will have to be an official statement at some point today I feel.

He went to ICU last night "as a precaution"

They can't maintain that line forever.

Salary Negotiator

easypazz wrote: »

There will have to be an official statement at some point today I feel.

He went to ICU last night "as a precaution"

They can't maintain that line forever.

I read elsewhere that No. 10 have said that unless his condition worsens necessitating an earlier statement there will be an update at the daily briefing which is usually around midday.

I think I read that on the BBC, not sure though. I’ve looked at a few sites this morning.

kevcos

kevcos wrote: »

One park had a sizable crowd of morons who were dispersed by the police. The majority of parks are closed, padlocks on the gates.

Literally got snapchats yesterday,from sibling and their kids in a park over there

KiKi III

easypazz wrote: »

There will have to be an official statement at some point today I feel.

He went to ICU last night "as a precaution"

They can't maintain that line forever.

People aren't sent to ICU as a precaution, and if he was, he'd be unnecessarily taking up an ICU bed when they're sorely needed.

Have to assume he's very ill.

Shelga

Gove and "sources from St Thomas's Hospital" are saying that Boris has not been intubated and not been ventilated, but he did need 4 litres of oxygen. The average for a person in intensive care is 15 litres, which suggests he is in better health than the average ICU patient.

Maybe it's spin, somewhat, but I'd rather be optimistic, rather than some of the doom-mongers around here.

El_Duderino 09

What's there to say? I hope he gets better and without any lasting injury, as I would wish any person better.

I think he's a d1ck as a person and wish he wasn't in the position of power that he holds in the UK.

I think it's ironic that the NHS will work to save his life so he can get back to the business of starving the NHS of funds to build support for privatising it.

He will gladly take the health care, that his decision to privatise, will deny normal people in the future.

Him going to an NHS hospital is just optics because he would have private health insurance if he weren't PM. So selling the NHS won't affect people born into wealth, like him, in the long term. It will just affect the normal people who need the NHS.

None of that changes the fact that I hope he gets better. I also hope this experience makes him a better person. I doubt it, but I hope.

Lemsiper

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Literally got snapchats yesterday,from sibling and their kids in a park over there

Why was your sibling in a park with their kids?

fash

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Literally got snapchats yesterday,from sibling and their kids in a park over there

Similar story for me. Maybe it was coincidentally the same park?

Lemsiper

Lemsiper wrote: »

Why was your sibling in a park with their kids?

Feeding calves

Why do ya think :pac:

easypazz

Shelga wrote: »

Gove and "sources from St Thomas's Hospital" are saying that Boris has not been intubated and not been ventilated, but he did need 4 litres of oxygen. The average for a person in intensive care is 15 litres, which suggests he is in better health than the average ICU patient.

Maybe it's spin, somewhat, but I'd rather be optimistic, rather than some of the doom-mongers around here.

This time yesterday it was all only a precaution and some tests.

El_Duderino 09

kevcos wrote: »

One park had a sizable crowd of morons who were dispersed by the police. The majority of parks are closed, padlocks on the gates.

It's a tricky issue. Everyone knows about the sh1tty housing situation in London. Tiny flats and the attraction to London is the lifestyle outside your tiny flat. So now those people are locked in their tiny flat with nowhere to go. So the parks are kept open to allow those people somewhere to walk and run - but not to sunbathe and fcuk around.

Fact is that most people over there are behaving admirably. Some people over there are being nobs but, we have our fair share of nobs here too.

easypazz

kevcos wrote: »

One park had a sizable crowd of morons who were dispersed by the police. The majority of parks are closed, padlocks on the gates.

lawred2 wrote: »

My sister is in London. She does not agree with this claim.

Deleted User wrote: »

Literally got snapchats yesterday,from sibling and their kids in a park over there

Lemsiper wrote: »

Why was your sibling in a park with their kids?

fash wrote: »

Similar story for me. Maybe it was coincidentally the same park?

Deleted User wrote: »

Feeding calves

Why do ya think :pac:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's a tricky issue. Everyone knows about the sh1tty housing situation in London. Tiny flats and the attraction to London is the lifestyle outside your tiny flat. So now those people are locked in their tiny flat with nowhere to go. So the parts are kept open to allow those people somewhere to walk and run - but not to sunbathe and fcuk around.

Fact is that most people over there are behaving admirably. Some people over there are being nobs but, we have our fair share of nobs here too.

Nice thread hijack there folks.

Maybe start a thread: London parks?

CrabRevolution

Shelga wrote: »

Gove and "sources from St Thomas's Hospital" are saying that Boris has not been intubated and not been ventilated, but he did need 4 litres of oxygen. The average for a person in intensive care is 15 litres, which suggests he is in better health than the average ICU patient.

Maybe it's spin, somewhat, but I'd rather be optimistic, rather than some of the doom-mongers around here.

At every stage of his illness so far, the "official sources" have turned out to be wrong and his condition was worse than they claimed. How does pointing this fact out make someone a "doom-monger"?

Lemsiper

easypazz wrote: »

Nice thread hijack there folks.

Maybe start a thread: London parks?

Boris would probably be more concerned by your giant multi quote post being more a derailment threat.

lozenges

anewme wrote: »

As a family member of a person in a nursing home, how can I ensure my parent is given a fair chance?

The thing is I think that a lot of older people, especially with dementia and/or in nursing homes, are treated badly when they come to the end of their lives in that they are over treated when that treatment is not likely to be successful.
The aim of healthcare isn't just to prolong life at any cost. It's about quality of life, increasingly so as people get older. Some NHS trusts I believe have switched from terming 'do not attempt CPR' to 'allow natural death' which I think better reflects the intention.

CPR is a traumatic aggressive intervention. If it is done correctly the person will end up with broken ribs. That can take months to recover from even in a young healthy person. Ventilation is also invasive. It is as far from a dignified and gentle end as I can think of. A lot of evidence has consistently shown that healthcare professionals choose not to undergo aggressive treatments and interventions towards the end of their life and prefer palliation - because they know what it entails.

When a person's heart stops -they are dead. In a young person that is often due to a reversible cause and CPR is more likely to be successful (though still relatively low). In an older person, it generally represents the final step of a natural irreversible process, which is dying. CPR has dismal success rates in such cases. If CPR is successful patients often die a few days later.

Talking about dying and what people want and expect at the end of their life is scary and hard, but it's really important. Some of the most difficult conversations I've had with families about their loved one have turned out to be the most rewarding. People really appreciate kindness and guidance and honesty.

That said I think the way this has been handled by some GPs/Trusts in the UK is shameful. No-one should be told by a letter that they would not be resuscitated in the event that they had a cardiac arrest. It's a horrific way to communicate with people and will ( in fact has already) provoke a massive negative reaction that will scare people and make them feel as if they're being abandoned. On top of that it will make it even harder for healthcare professionals to talk about end of life care, even when it is appropriate.

easypazz

Lemsiper wrote: »

Boris would probably be more concerned by your giant multi quote post being more a derailment threat.

I'd say it top of his agenda this morning alright

Nonoperational

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I don't believe such a decision can be made by civilian medical staff under normal circumstances. They are required to do all in their power for the patient in front of them. In fact, it's against discrimination laws.

War and major catastrophies you can triage in such a manner based on survival chances but it can't be a pre made decision even then

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wtf?!? You are a doctor stating that you can simple decide but to bother trying to resuscitate a patient?

I think this point keeps coming up and there is a general misunderstanding about it.

Decisions are made every single day in hospitals about resuscitation and are done in the best interest of the patient with mind for available resources.

The very direct answer to your question is yes. Every day around the world this happens.

I don't have time to go into it in detail now but it is in the interest of the patient and comfort and compassion are prioritised over often futile and pretty unpleasant attempts to artificially prolong life.

threeball

s1ippy wrote: »

Aw I don't agree with your last bit. While people with disabilities should absolutely not get DNRs if their expectancy and quality of life isn't gravely impacted, suggesting medical staff impose an unnecessary death sentence on criminals isn't an answer to the issue either. In the same way Boris doesn't deserve to be left to die in spite of his actions resulting in the deaths of many others.

I'd rather try to save someone who has something to offer to society than someone who has nothing to offer. Put a person with downs syndrome next to a lad with 80 convictions and to me there is no question about which of them is worth trying to save.

manonboard

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wtf?!? You are a doctor stating that you can simple decide but to bother trying to resuscitate a patient?

This is a daily occurrence for doctors. They have to decide this. Who else would? All medical decisions get evaluated depending on likely outcome, quality of life, suffering and resources.

El_Duderino 09

easypazz wrote: »

Nice thread hijack there folks.

Maybe start a thread: London parks?

Sure thing but when you're modding, shouldn't you use bold font?

Supercell

Nonoperational wrote: »

I think this point keeps coming up and there is a general misunderstanding about it.

Decisions are made every single day in hospitals about resuscitation and are done in the best interest of the patient with mind for available resources.

The very direct answer to your question is yes. Every day around the world this happens.

I don't have time to go into it in detail now but it is in the interest of the patient and comfort and compassion are prioritised over often futile and pretty unpleasant attempts to artificially prolong life.

My father, after personally witnessing an old friend of his suffer for weeks with countless attempts to keep him going because his wife and daughters wouldn't let him pass has asked me to let the hospital know when the times comes that his wishes are DNR.
He has written a letter to that extent and shared it with the rest of the family so everyone will respect this. Its going to be a tough thing to do should it come to that but I will respect his wishes.

Personally I wish hospitals had more choice in this when they see that all it is doing is prolonging suffering for the patient and ultimately the family too.

retro:electro

I keep thinking about Boris since the news was announced. I wouldn’t have any strong feelings on the man either personally or politically but it has shaken me. For someone who seemed to be managing their symptoms quite well, to take such a bad turn on day 10 is very frightening. I really hope he pulls through. I don’t think anyone wants this to be the way he goes out.

Tokyo

BBC is reporting that he is on oxygen support at the moment:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52194875

easypazz

retro:electro wrote: »

I keep thinking about Boris since the news was announced. I wouldn’t have any strong feelings on the man either personally or politically but it has shaken me. For someone who seemed to be managing their symptoms quite well, to take such a bad turn on day 10 is very frightening. I really hope he pulls through. I don’t think anyone wants this to be the way he goes out.

They had been preparing a bed for him since last Thursday, which was also the last time he was seen in public. This deterioration is not as sudden as people are being led to believe.

Harry Palmr

#clapforboris at 8 PM this evening. This is when everyone in the NHS will stop for five minutes and show their appreciation for their prime minister.

mike_ie

mike_ie wrote: »

BBC is reporting that he is on oxygen support at the moment:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52194875

Hard to know who to believe about the ventilator and is he on it or not



Neither the russians nor the brits are great at telling the truth

rainbowtrout

Pseudonym121 wrote: »

Because normally some of the ill in nursing homes might have been ventilated but they are often being treated in the nursing home instead of being brought into ICU. This keeps ventilators free and has prevented ICU beds from being overwhelmed.

They would have very poor outcomes in any case but I’d they’d all been brought in a small number more might have survived. Hence difficult decisions have already been made.

ICU beds haven’t been overwhelmed because of a combination of curve flattening and very difficult decisions made by medical authorities. The government doesn’t, of course, draw attention to the second order effects of these decisions.

I had been wondering over the past week about the statistics we are seeing. Almost everyday the median age of those who died is around 80. While I know older people / people with underlying health conditions are more susceptible, the fact that it was consistently a median age of 80ish, and not much comment in the media of people of a younger age profile dying, it seemed to suggest that the vast majority of those dying came from nursing homes, rather than older people a cross section of the general population. Particularly given that as a percentage of our population that would be over 80 and contracting the virus if they were simply among the general public would probably be lower .

The quality of life a lot of these people have due to their health problems is probably not great, and to put them on a ventilator is prolonging the inevitable for some. Palliative care in the nursing home with which they are familiar is probably the better option for many unfortunately.

BarryD2

retro:electro wrote: »

I keep thinking about Boris since the news was announced. I wouldn’t have any strong feelings on the man either personally or politically but it has shaken me. For someone who seemed to be managing their symptoms quite well, to take such a bad turn on day 10 is very frightening. I really hope he pulls through. I don’t think anyone wants this to be the way he goes out.

Indeed and it'll be a major shock if he does slip away. But the above seems to be a reported pattern with this virus, a sudden deterioration. Maybe the medical people are playing safe, who really knows?

lozenges

Supercell wrote: »

My father, after personally witnessing an old friend of his suffer for weeks with countless attempts to keep him going because his wife and daughters wouldn't let him pass has asked me to let the hospital know when the times comes that his wishes are DNR.
He has written a letter to that extent and shared it with the rest of the family so everyone will respect this. Its going to be a tough thing to do should it come to that but I will respect his wishes.

Personally I wish hospitals had more choice in this when they see that all it is doing is prolonging suffering for the patient and ultimately the family too.

Legally in fact it is the responsibility of the medical team to decide whether CPR is indicated or not. It doesn't require patient or family consent (basically while patients are entitled to refuse treatment they don't want, drs are also not obliged to provide treatment they feel is futile or not appropriate.)

However it's very difficult to go against strong patient and family wishes, both from an emotional perspective and also because of the risk of litigation.

El_Duderino 09

Harry Palmr wrote: »

#clapforboris at 8 PM this evening. This is when everyone in the NHS will stop for five minutes and show their appreciation for their prime minister.

Yeah I'd wish him well but a clap for Boris is a step too far for me. Unless they put aside a day to clap for every single individual who has the disease, then I'd just leave it at wishing him well.