EU state aid rules don't apply to big countries

Kermit.de.frog

More evidence of the farce the EU is.

We are told we all have to live under these rules Brussels provide for us in relation to state aid and competition but when it's one of the big boys those rules are quietly dispensed with...

From Guardian live blog today

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/08/coronavirus-live-news-us-trump-threatens-who-funding-uk-boris-johnson-global-cases-latest-updates

The French government is prepared to provide “massive support” to Air France KLM to help the French-Dutch air carrier make it through the downturn, France’s finance minister Bruno Le Maire has told the France 2 television station.

Air France is losing billions of euros per month. Air France is not going to need a boost, but rather massive support from the state.

Air France will get this support from the state, we want to save at all costs this French industrial champion.

Le Maire added that other big companies, such as the aeronautical engineer Airbus, need help too.

The silence is deafening from Brussels.

Could you imagine what Brussels would do if, for example, Aer Lingus got in to trouble and our government wanted to save it?

They would be told "no".

Yet France or Germany can do what they like.

Shambles.

Shengen proven to be redundant and now state aid rules are redundant as well.

Grossly unfair to smaller countries who would never be allowed do this without consequences.

This thing is going to end in tears.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

More evidence of the farce the EU is.

not evidence at all i'm afraid given the EU isn't a farce.
the EU certainly has issues but it's much much better then anything ireland has ever had access to before. i suspect it's the same for plenty of other countries as well.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We are told we all have to live under these rules Brussels provide for us in relation to state aid and competition but when it's one of the big boys those rules are quietly dispensed with...

and we do.
oh but here is the funny thing, the MEPS have to actually vote in the rules. if they vote against them, or enough do, then they don't get implemented.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

From Guardian live blog today

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/08/coronavirus-live-news-us-trump-threatens-who-funding-uk-boris-johnson-global-cases-latest-updates



The silencing is deafening from Brussels.

Could you imagine what Brussels would do if, for example, Aer Lingus got in to trouble and our government wanted to save it?

They would be told "no".

Yet France or Germany can do what they like.

Shambles.

Shengen proven to be redundant and now state aid rules are redundant as well.

Grossly unfair to smaller countries who would never be allowed do this without consequences.

This thing is going to end in tears.

actually no, france and germany can't do whatever they like. if they do breach state aid rules they are penalised, however when they have done it, they have so for good reason so are happy to simply take the punishment on the chin.
anyway, i would expect given the current situation state aid rules will be relaxed or even redundant until we are back to whatever normality will be.
Aer Lingus is no longer anything to do with the government so they wouldn't be specifically wanting to save it anyway. it's just another airline now.

Kermit.de.frog

So in your devotion to this clown car of a club you are telling us the rules are not the rules?

They are only the rules some of the time.

Is that correct?

We have seen two of the so called pillars made redundant in the last two months.

We were always told that could never happen.

It has.

The dictatorship just declared in Hungary...

Could you tell us when Hungary will be suspended, or are dictatorships just part of the give and take of the so called rules?

Looks to me like all these things that could never happen have now happened.

Looks like the beginning of the end to me.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So in your devotion to this clown car of a club you are telling us the rules are not the rules?

They are only the rules some of the time.

Is that correct?

it's not correct, as you will know if you had actually read my post.
we are in a situation like nothing we have ever known, so while generally the rules are the rules, given the current situation they are likely being relaxed, necessarily so as to help countries keep on their feat.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We have seen two of the so called pillars made redundant in the last two months.

We were always told that could never happen.

It has.

The dictatorship just declared in Hungary...

Could you tell us when Hungary will be suspended, or are dictatorships just part of the give and take of the so called rules?

Looks to me like all these things that could never happen have now happened.

Looks like the beginning of the end to me.

if the hungarian government have suspended everything and become a dictatorship then that is very sad, but i'm not seeing how that is the fault of the EU.
if the hungarian government have not become a dictatorship, then perhapse you could elaborate on what you are talking about?

Kermit.de.frog

end of the road wrote: »

it's not correct, as you will know if you had actually read my post.
we are in a situation like nothing we have ever known, so while generally the rules are the rules, given the current situation they are likely being relaxed, necessarily so as to help countries keep on their feat.



if the hungarian government have suspended everything and become a dictatorship then that is very sad, but i'm not seeing how that is the fault of the EU.
if the hungarian government have not become a dictatorship, then perhapse you could elaborate on what you are talking about?

So generally the rules are the rules?

lol

This is why, the single currency for example, is doomed. It's doomed because the market doesn't do "cake and eat it" rules.

There are either rules or there are not.

You are defacto saying there are no rules because they are expendable rules. It just takes a crisis.

On Hungary

Orban just took complete emergency control of Hungary in recent days

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/pressure-mounts-eu-take-%E2%80%9Cswift%E2%80%9D-action-against-hungary

MEPs and rights groups have heavily criticised the government of Viktor Orbán for passing an emergency bill that grants the government the power to rule by decree indefinitely.

It requires an impossible two thirds majority of the parliament to overturn.

We are expecting swift action from Brussels then, are we?

Rodney Bathgate

Swift action is not something you will ever associate with the EU.

screamer

I think the whole EU project will be on life support after this epedemic. There is no solidarity, it’s every country for themselves. When it settles down the Italians and Spanish are going to be very angry, indeed I see this being the final nail in the coffin for Italian membership of the EU, and I predict they’ll break away to print their own money because they have no options left now.

noodler

Aer France are the national airline.

They are of strategic importance to the country.

We would bail out the ESB, are Lingus, cie etc.

end of the road

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So generally the rules are the rules?

lol

This is why, the single currency for example, is doomed. It's doomed because the market doesn't do "cake and eat it" rules.

There are either rules or there are not.

You are defacto saying there are no rules because they are expendable rules. It just takes a crisis.

again nope wrong.
the rules are the rules when they are the rules which they are.
the rules being relaxed due to a very serious situation is not the same as the rules not existing in the first place. they still exist and remain the rules, the relevant administration of the EU are not going to take any action while the crisis remains on anyone who would be taking actions that would be generally a breach of them, because governments have no choice but to breach them to keep on their feat during this current situation.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

On Hungary

Orban just took complete emergency control of Hungary in recent days

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/pressure-mounts-eu-take-%E2%80%9Cswift%E2%80%9D-action-against-hungary



It requires an impossible two thirds majority of the parliament to overturn.

We are expecting swift action from Brussels then, are we?

well yes, everybody knows orban is a nutcase, i can't imagine anyone is suprised about his doings.
yes hopefully the EU will take swift and strong action, but they certainly aren't to blame for the situation.

landofthetree

Germany break the rules all the time.

Germany now 'biggest breaker of EU rules', according to official figures

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-germany-breaks-more-eu-rules-worst-bottom-class-a8198271.html%3famp

landofthetree

screamer wrote: »

I think the whole EU project will be on life support after this epedemic. There is no solidarity, it’s every country for themselves. When it settles down the Italians and Spanish are going to be very angry, indeed I see this being the final nail in the coffin for Italian membership of the EU, and I predict they’ll break away to print their own money because they have no options left now.

It's the paradox of the EU.

It's critics claim it's too powerful when crisis A comes along. Then the same people claim it's too weak when crisis B comes along.

Reminds me of the Irish housing crisis. The people out protesting about a housing shortage are the same people who were out protesting the week before about a new development down the road

Kermit.de.frog

noodler wrote: »

Aer France are the national airline.

They are of strategic importance to the country.

We would bail out the ESB, are Lingus, cie etc.

We would not be allowed to under state aid rules.

But apparently there are no rules anymore so we can act in our national self interest again like everyone else.

The EU has been severely damaged through this crisis. It's irrelevance is there for all to see.

No one cares.

noodler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We would not be allowed to under state aid rules.

But apparently there are no rules anymore so we can act in our national self interest again like everyone else.

The EU has been severely damaged through this crisis. It's irrelevance is there for all to see.

No one cares.

Course we would.

We've gotten state aid approval from the Commission for various things dozens of times over the last ten years.

Edit: Hell, last week.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_557


A relatively minor one given the circumstances but they are numerous.

Danzy

Germany and France have always bent the rules and also decided them.

It's been a real problem.

sameoldname

So only Germany, France and ...Hungary can break the rules? That's the point you are trying to make?
Well Hungary's economy is smaller than ours so I guess we can do what we like too. So what's the problem?

otnomart

the state aid rules apply to all EU countries (big and small)
Description of the exceptional occurrence and the official reaction of your authorities
"The questions below aim at clarifying the country specific situation.
•Data on the COVID-19 outbreak in your country: date of first case reported in the country; number of affected persons at the time of notification
•Data on the economic impact of the Covid-19 outbreak in your country, notably in the sectors covered by the scheme, if available
•Sequence of (main) events between the occurrence and the adoption of the scheme including any official recommendations or prohibitions decided by the competent authorities"
"With regard to the transport sector (airlines, airports, ground handling, rail and bus undertakings, maritime companies, etc.), the assessment of support to the sector will be made on a case-by-case basis"
source: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/what_is_new/Notification_template_107_2_b_PUBLICATION.pdf
found here: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/what_is_new/covid_19.html

Kermit.de.frog

Exactly, the rules are not the rules when it comes to a crisis.

Who decides the crisis? So if Ireland is in crisis but France is not can we bail out our industries?

Either there are rules or there are not.

It's quite clear at this stage with Shengen and now this that there are no rules and thus the EU itself is redundant.

This could be the beginning of the end of the EU we are witnessing.

Everything has been torn up.

Everyone for themselves.

_Kaiser_

Here's another article as to why the EU just will never work

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/this-time-the-future-of-the-euro-really-is-at-stake-1.4224394

Ireland, in tune with southern states, has been appalled by The Hague’s staunch blocking of proposals to dig European economies out of disaster and debt spiral caused by the pandemic.

In the Netherlands, jointly-backed debt is commonly likened to taking over your neighbour’s mortgage, an unfair characterisation that draws on an old misapprehension that the euro zone bailouts were gifts from Dutch and German taxpayers, rather than loans repaid with interest.

As I said over in the other recent EU thread, national interest will ALWAYS trump any supposed EU "bigger picture" precisely because the EU isn't a grouping of people and states separated merely by artificial borders - it's a collection of independent nations with their own culture, history, language and beliefs on what is right, wrong or acceptable, and they all value that individuality very highly.

Unless the members of the EU and it's citizens start seeing themselves as "European first" in all things (which will NEVER happen), the whole thing is doomed to fail, and the more they try to force it, the messier the end will be.

LeinsterDub

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So generally

This is why, the single currency for example, is doomed. It's doomed because the market doesn't do "cake and eat it" rules.

You say entirely unironically in a thread about massive company wanting their cake and eating it .

The market doesn't care as long as they are making money

LeinsterDub

screamer wrote: »

I think the whole EU project will be on life support after this epedemic. There is no solidarity, it’s every country for themselves. When it settles down the Italians and Spanish are going to be very angry, indeed I see this being the final nail in the coffin for Italian membership of the EU, and I predict they’ll break away to print their own money because they have no options left now.

No Solidarity expect for purchasing supplies , massive cash injections , sharing testing , sharing knowledge , sharing patients. So no solidarity except all of the above and more .

Kivaro

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No Solidarity expect for purchasing supplies , massive cash injections , sharing testing , sharing knowledge , sharing patients. So no solidarity except all of the above and more .

Don't forget the shared migration. Especially when Merkel went nuclear and allowed millions into the EU.
Remember when Emmanuel Macron told Ireland and a few other EU countries that our intake of the non-EU economic migrants clogging up the streets of Paris and camping out on their parks ..... was going to be swift.
Wonder how many of Macron's migrants did Ireland eventually get?

The EU, if it survives this crisis, should revert back to an economic union.
The practice of Germany and France ruling the bloc as a political entity and placing unrealistic policies in place will be coming to an end soon .... hopefully.

LeinsterDub

Kivaro wrote: »

Don't forget the shared migration. Especially when Merkel went nuclear and allowed millions into the EU.
Remember when Emmanuel Macron told Ireland and a few other EU countries that our intake of the non-EU economic migrants clogging up the streets of Paris and camping out on their parks ..... was going to be swift.
Wonder how many of Macron's migrants did Ireland eventually get?

The EU, if it survives this crisis, should revert back to an economic union.
The practice of Germany and France ruling the bloc as a political entity and placing unrealistic policies in place will be coming to an end soon .... hopefully.

What's this nonsense got to do with the EU's response to Covid?

Kivaro

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What's this nonsense got to do with the EU's response to Covid?

Ah I see.
You just want to hear only the positives of this fine European union.
Gotcha.

A German-controlled NGO ferry is trying to land African migrants in Italy at the moment during a worldwide pandemic, but it is just nonsense ..... apparently.

troyzer

The Commission adopted a temporary framework several weeks ago to allow for state aid during this emergency.

There has always been scope to lift state aid restrictions during a crisis. This is the system working as it's supposed to.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_496

Executive Vice President Margrethe Vestager, in charge of competition policy, said: “The economic impact of the COVID-19 outbreak is severe. We need to act fast to manage the impact as much as we can. And we need to act in a coordinated manner. This new Temporary Framework enables Member States to use the full flexibility foreseen under State aid rules to support the economy at this difficult time.”

But by all means, continue to rail against your imagined oppressors.

CtevenSrowder

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Looks like the beginning of the end to me.

screamer wrote: »

I think the whole EU project will be on life support after this epedemic. There is no solidarity, it’s every country for themselves. When it settles down the Italians and Spanish are going to be very angry, indeed I see this being the final nail in the coffin for Italian membership of the EU, and I predict they’ll break away to print their own money because they have no options left now.

People have been saying this on boards since I originally joined it back in 08. It was the financial crisis back then, then it was Greece, and now it's the Covid Pandemic. The EU will survive, as it always has.

LeinsterDub

Kivaro wrote: »

Ah I see.
You just want to hear only the positives of this fine European union.
Gotcha.

A German-controlled NGO ferry is trying to land African migrants in Italy at the moment during a worldwide pandemic, but it is just nonsense ..... apparently.

No I want to have a discussion which can't happen if people keep jumping from point to point. Remind us all again what NGO stands for and then explain how the EU can do anything about it?

Kermit.de.frog

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You say entirely unironically in a thread about massive company wanting their cake and eating it .

The market doesn't care as long as they are making money

But you see you are wrong.

This was exposed during the financial crisis when the market systematically attacked Europe's periphery.

Why? Because the wider market sensed blood so they bet against the weakest links ruthlessly.

Only a last gasp effort from the ECB saved the eurozone then.

It all comes down to rules.

What are those rules and are they applied?

You get a way with it in good times, not in bad.

The market already senses blood again with Italy and the major funds will keep pulling at the weak link until it either separates from the eurozone completely or rules are applied.

Rules that are totally unacceptable to the richer countries.

That's why the euro is doomed in it's current form.

MrMusician18

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Exactly, the rules are not the rules when it comes to a crisis.

Who decides the crisis? So if Ireland is in crisis but France is not can we bail out our industries?

Either there are rules or there are not.

It's quite clear at this stage with Shengen and now this that there are no rules and thus the EU itself is redundant.

This could be the beginning of the end of the EU we are witnessing.

Everything has been torn up.

Everyone for themselves.

State aid rules can be and always have been able to be suspended during periods of national crisis, especially to protect vital national industries. But you know that.

The real issue is that you just don't like the EU. You're just using any crack you might see as a point to drive your anti EU wedge into.

If the rules had to be adhered to now you'd accuse the EU of inflexibility.

Kermit.de.frog

troyzer wrote: »

The Commission adopted a temporary framework several weeks ago to allow for state aid during this emergency.

There has always been scope to lift state aid restrictions during a crisis. This is the system working as it's supposed to.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_496



But by all means, continue to rail against your imagined oppressors.

lol, they have no choice.

There are no rules in the EU. Everyone knows that now.

Again if it was Ireland alone in crisis what would the rules be then?

But now it's France and Germany and they can't have that.

ka2

noodler wrote: »

Aer France are the national airline.

They are of strategic importance to the country.

We would bail out the ESB, are Lingus, cie etc.

I'd normally be a supporter of the EU but the OP makes a fair point. We were told at the time of the Bus Éireann strike that the government couldn't bail them out. Yet this is exactly what France are being allowed to do here.

Kermit.de.frog

ka2 wrote: »

I'd normally be a supporter of the EU but the OP makes a fair point. We were told at the time of the Bus Éireann strike that the government couldn't bail them out. Yet this is exactly what France are being allowed to do here.

Worse than that - Belgium's national airline Sabena went bust in 2001 because the EU insisted the Belgian government could not bail it out specifically citing EU rules in relation to state aid for airlines.

But France - they can bail out who ever they want when ever they want in particular their national airline.

They are talking about bailouts for Airbus as well now ffs.

The notion that we would be allowed do any of this is absurd and a complete lie.