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EU state aid rules don't apply to big countries

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2

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    #32
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    What was the underlying situation that was causing Bus Eireann to lose money and needing a bailout? (I honestly don't know, I am abroad)
    Was it that people couldn't use the service because of a major health risk or because of inefficiencies in the service that were causing the staff to go on strike in order to secure better pay / security?

    Why are you comparing a worldwide health crisis to the face that Bus Eireann is/was (assumption on my part) badly run?

    Once the dust settles, I'm sure that the actions taken by countries will be reviewed by the EU and fines dealt out for any abusing it.

    With regards to Germany being the biggest rule breaker, the article even says that the EU is investigating. In the end you have to remember that if the majority (or all in certain situations) of countries decide to change the rules, then the rules are changed. That's how democracy and the EU work.


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    #33
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    lol, they have no choice.

    There are no rules in the EU. Everyone knows that now.

    Again if it was Ireland alone in crisis what would the rules be then?

    But now it's France and Germany and they can't have that.

    Well cast your mind back about 12 years . Remember the European Fiscal Compact ? Remember our debt at 129% of GDP?


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    #34
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    ka2 wrote: »
    I'd normally be a supporter of the EU but the OP makes a fair point. We were told at the time of the Bus Éireann strike that the government couldn't bail them out. Yet this is exactly what France are being allowed to do here.

    You might have forgotten that Coronavirus wasn't ravaging the entire economy at the time.

    Buseireann didn't get a bailout because it didn't need one and the state didn't want to give it one ultimately. Greedy hoors in the NBRU don't get to dictate policy.


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    #35
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ka2 wrote: »
    I'd normally be a supporter of the EU but the OP makes a fair point. We were told at the time of the Bus Éireann strike that the government couldn't bail them out. Yet this is exactly what France are being allowed to do here.

    A) There are plenty of operator who could take over BÉ's operations and as such it's not a nationality critical industry
    B) And I probably should have led with this , there's an ongoing global pandemic


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    #36
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Well cast your mind back about 12 years . Remember the European Fiscal Compact ? Remember our debt at 129% of GDP?

    Tell us about what happened to Sabena in the economic fallout of 9/11 no less.

    Remind us what were the rules for Belgium and what price did Belgium pay for those rules?

    Yet here is France going to bail out industries left right and center.

    Give us a break.

    You know this is completely wrong. You know the rule book is being torn up for France.


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    #37
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Tell is about what happened to Sabena in the economic fallout of 9/11 no less.

    Remind us what were the rules for Belgium and what price did Belgium pay for those rules?

    Yet here is France going to bail out industries left right and center.

    Give us a break.

    You know this is completely wrong. You know the rule is being torn up for France.

    Now, if they are willing to do that to Belgium what do you think they would allow happen here in little Paddyland?

    lol

    We all know.


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    #38
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Worse than that - Belgium's national airline Sabena went bust in 2001 because the EU insisted the Belgian government could not bail it out specifically citing EU rules in relation to state aid for airlines.

    But France - they can bail out who ever they want when ever they want in particular their national airline.

    They are talking about bailouts for Airbus as well now ffs.

    The notion that we would be allowed do any of this is absurd and a complete lie.

    once more why did the airline go bust? The current health situation is unique, a company can be profitable and well run but since they have no income due to a world wide crisis they could go under for no other reason causing all those people to become unemployed.

    The EU are currently using the rules as written to relax the rules during this crisis. Further relaxation of the rules is being discussed: https://www.ft.com/content/17596577-b3ca-4c5c-bd2c-da5d0d3042cd

    I really don't see the drama.


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    #39
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    BKtje wrote: »
    What was the underlying situation that was causing Bus Eireann to lose money and needing a bailout? (I honestly don't know, I am abroad)
    Was it that people couldn't use the service because of a major health risk or because of inefficiencies in the service that were causing the staff to go on strike in order to secure better pay / security?

    Why are you comparing a worldwide health crisis to the face that Bus Eireann is/was (assumption on my part) badly run?

    Once the dust settles, I'm sure that the actions taken by countries will be reviewed by the EU and fines dealt out for any abusing it.

    With regards to Germany being the biggest rule breaker, the article even says that the EU is investigating. In the end you have to remember that if the majority (or all in certain situations) of countries decide to change the rules, then the rules are changed. That's how democracy and the EU work.

    Also Germany and France are the biggest countries so doesn't it follow they are the biggest rule breaker? More projects , more people ,more companies , more opportunities to do so, be it intentionally or not


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    #40
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Now, if they are willing to do that to Belgium what do you think they would allow happen here in little Paddyland?

    lol

    We all know.

    We'd get billions and billions of euro of low interest loans?


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    #41
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Tell us about what happened to Sabena in the economic fallout of 9/11 no less.

    Remind us what were the rules for Belgium and what price did Belgium pay for those rules?

    Yet here is France going to bail out industries left right and center.

    Give us a break.

    You know this is completely wrong. You know the rule book is being torn up for France.

    Every country agreed to relax the rules, every country is taking advantage of the relaxed rules. What is your issue? In 2001 most other airlines survived in 2020 most are in danger of failing . Airlines fail every year why as you so focused on Sabena?


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    #42
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Also Germany and France are the biggest countries so doesn't it follow they are the biggest rule breaker? More projects , more people ,more companies , more opportunities to do so, be it intentionally or not

    Christ.

    I don't know.

    Get in the real world.


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    #43
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Tell us about what happened to Sabena in the economic fallout of 9/11 no less.

    Remind us what were the rules for Belgium and what price did Belgium pay for those rules?

    Yet here is France going to bail out industries left right and center.

    Give us a break.

    You know this is completely wrong. You know the rule book is being torn up for France.

    Many airlines went bankrupt as consumer confidence changed. This was a choice by consumers and not forced upon an airline by the government of the country. Airlines adapted and survived..or didn't, capitalism at work.

    Currently flights are minimised not due to consumer confidence but because the governments are restricting access to countries due to the pandemic. The pandemic is ongoing, if flights were being hijacked every day and being flown into buildings forcing the government to ban or minimise flights for an indeterminate time then some aid might also be given. The two situations are quite different.


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    #44
    greenfield21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    The EU will emerge from this even stronger, they will also have a much weaker currency to help exports. Good article below on the topic.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-09/covid-19-germany-will-be-a-post-coronavirus-winner?srnd=premium-europe


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    #45
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Christ.

    I don't know.

    Get in the real world.

    What part do you disagree with?
    Germany and France being bigger?
    Having more projects etc?


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    #46
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Every country agreed to relax the rules, every country is taking advantage of the relaxed rules. What is your issue? In 2001 most other airlines survived in 2020 most are in danger of failing . Airlines fail every year why as you so focused on Sabena?

    Sabena was Belgium's national airline.

    Still don't get it?

    The Belgian government were trying to bail it out as critical national importance.

    What did the French and Germans say and thus the EU?

    They said no

    Relaxing the rules?

    Incredible attitude - the rules have been torn up.

    I suppose next you'll tell us the EU left room for Shengen countries to randomly close their borders to each other.

    Oh look that also happened in the last couple of weeks :pac:


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    #47
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Sabena was Belgium's national airline.

    Still don't get it?

    Yeah I still don't get it because the concept of national airlines died in the 90's when they where all sold off.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

    I suppose next you'll tell us the EU left room for Shengen countries to randomly close their borders to each other.

    It's literally written in the treaty


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    #48
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,990 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    This thread is the who's who of conspiracy theorists.

    When approached with factual evidence multiple times with legal sources they double down.

    Its a pointless exercise engaging. There is no link nor source that changes someones mind on this they are embedded. It shows up more about them that they pretend to search for 'truth' but when shown it it doesnt meet their imagined expectations.


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    #49
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    BKtje wrote: »
    Many airlines went bankrupt as consumer confidence changed. This was a choice by consumers and not forced upon an airline by the government of the country. Airlines adapted and survived..or didn't, capitalism at work.

    Great.

    So Air France/KLM will survive without French/Dutch govt help right?

    Only that is not what is happening is it?

    Should be capitalism at work, I agree. It would be for us.

    But not for France or the Netherlands or Germany.


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    #50
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭troyzer


    ka2 wrote: »
    I'd normally be a supporter of the EU but the OP makes a fair point. We were told at the time of the Bus Éireann strike that the government couldn't bail them out. Yet this is exactly what France are being allowed to do here.

    Bus Éireann and Air France are nothing like each other.


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    #51
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Now, if they are willing to do that to Belgium what do you think they would allow happen here in little Paddyland?

    lol

    We all know.

    If you disagree with the rules as written, that is your right and I would applaud you for trying to change them for what you consider to be better.

    It is disingenuous to use the relaxation of the rules, as agreed upon and thus written into these rules, as a stick to beat the EU with. The organisatiojn is just following the rules as laid down by the member states. If a state decides that this is wrong and not within said rules then they can open a case.

    it is quite possible that a country (or countries) will complain about France's handling of the situation and if it is found that they they are breaking them then they will be punished as laid down in said rules.

    If a case is opened (as laid out in the rules) and the EU does not investigate (thus breaking the rules) then we can be up in arms. Until that point arrives we will continue to observe and ensure that the organisation remains honest. That is our role as members of the organisation.


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    #52
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Great.

    So Air France/KLM will survive without French/Dutch govt help right?

    Only that is not what is happening is it?

    Should be capitalism at work, I agree. It would be for us.

    But not for France or the Netherlands or Germany.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_France
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_the_Netherlands

    But something something flag carrier , am I right?


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    #53
    ka2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭ka2


    This seems to be a very unwelcoming website, always seems to be people trying to shoot others down. I'm new here but can't see myself staying.


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    #54
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_France
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_airlines_of_the_Netherlands

    But something something flag carrier , am I right?

    You are missing the point probably intentionally.

    Mindless devotion to a failed project collapsing before your eyes.


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    #55
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ka2 wrote: »
    This seems to be a very unwelcoming website, always seems to be people trying to shoot others down. I'm new here but can't see myself staying.

    Your more than welcome, you're more than welcome to express yourself but this is a discussion board , if you're uncomfortable with a frank discussion then perhaps you're right that this isn't the place for you


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    #56
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,990 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ka2 wrote: »
    This seems to be a very unwelcoming website, always seems to be people trying to shoot others down. I'm new here but can't see myself staying.

    Its a debating website, you should expect your views to be challenged heavily. Not hugs and whistles.


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    #57
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You are missing the point probably intentionally.

    Mindless devotion to a failed project collapsing before your eyes.

    What is your point?

    That the former flag carriers shouldn't be allowed fail?

    That the EU shouldn't implement the rules relaxations they have in their rules for a crises during a crises?

    That 2001 should have been declared a crises but wasn't?


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    #58
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Great.

    So Air France/KLM will survive without French/Dutch govt help right?

    But not for France or the Netherlands or Germany.

    If Air France/KLM would have been in trouble without the current crisis being in effect then yes the state aid would be illegal under EU rules (as I understand them). However the current crisis does exist which makes the rest moot.

    I don't know why you are focusing on this particular case. Companies all over the world /EU are receiving state aid at the moment to help pay their employees. Here in Switzerland (non EU) the government is paying (through the unemployment fund) up to 80% of peoples wages who are off work or paying a % if people are forced to work part time. In the UK loans are being granted to businesses or in some cases grants are being given to keep them afloat. In Germany loans and grants are being made available to businesses so that they don't go under.

    Rules have been changed to avoid people being thrown out of their commercial spaces for non payment of rent. This is all state aid in some shape or form. Air france /KLM is just a larger more visible version of this.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There was an emergency that only affected Greece, Portugal and Ireland. No exceptions were made in that case because it was the PIGS at it. The IMF and the UK gave more favourable terms than the ECB to Ireland then.

    Italy will leave, no question, or it will be the end of the Euro, which the Germans won't countenance.

    I had a German say recently we should allow full flights in and out of Ireland as it would be contrary to the EU freedom of movement principle - in the middle of a f*king pandemic. Political principles more important than people's lives !

    Also tried to tell me that EU countries hadn't closed their borders. FFS.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BKtje wrote: »
    If Air France/KLM would have been in trouble without the current crisis being in effect then yes the state aid would be illegal under EU rules (as I understand them). However the current crisis does exist which makes the rest moot.

    I don't know why you are focusing on this particular case. Companies all over the world /EU are receiving state aid at the moment to help pay their employees. Here in Switzerland (non EU) the government is paying (through the unemployment fund) up to 80% of peoples wages who are off work or paying a % if people are forced to work part time. In the UK loans are being granted to businesses or in some cases grants are being given to keep them afloat. In Germany loans and grants are being made available to businesses so that they don't go under.

    Rules have been changed to avoid people being thrown out of their commercial spaces for non payment of rent. This is all state aid in some shape or form. Air france /KLM is just a larger more visible version of this.

    Would Ireland have been allowed to give state aid to Aer Lingus during the bailout years? For us that was a bigger financial crisis than this one is likely to be, even at worst case scenario projections.


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    #61
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    You are missing the point probably intentionally.

    Mindless devotion to a failed project collapsing before your eyes    .

    Irony of ironies. How much time have you devoted to anti-EU posting? Your own personal failed project.

    Last time I checked, it was still there and the country was still a member.


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