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EU state aid rules don't apply to big countries

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    #62
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Would Ireland have been allowed to give state aid to Aer Lingus during the bailout years? For us that was a bigger financial crisis than this one is likely to be, even at worst case scenario projections.

    No because Aer Lingus survived that that recession without a bailout, so if it was in the situation were is needed a bailout it would have been unrelated to that recession.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not against the idea of the EC, but the EU, I am against. Every time you hear them talking about closer and closer integration - no one wants this except for the most extreme europhiles.

    I don't want to live in a United States of Europe. Can we not just keep the good parts and get rid of the rest?


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No because Aer Lingus survived that that recession without a bailout, so if it was in the situation were is needed a bailout it would have been unrelated to that recession.

    That doesn't answer my question. You know damn well they would have been allowed to fail.


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    #65
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭troyzer


    SABENA failed because it was being chronically mismanaged with some dodgy directors doing some pretty illegal stuff on the side.

    Swissair also made a balls of their attempt at saving the company.

    The Belgian government was never banned from bailing them out, the commission allowed Belgium to make them a one off, interest free bridging loan which the Belgian government ultimately decided not to do.

    State Aid in the EU is far more complicated than this simplistic idea that it's never allowed unless you're big.


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    #66
    BKtje
    Registered Users Posts: 8,053 ✭✭✭BKtje


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There was an emergency that only affected Greece, Portugal and Ireland. No exceptions were made in that case because it was the PIGS at it. The IMF and the UK gave more favourable terms than the ECB to Ireland then.

    Italy will leave, no question, or it will be the end of the Euro, which the Germans won't countenance.

    I had a German say recently we should allow full flights in and out of Ireland as it would be contrary to the EU freedom of movement principle - in the middle of a f*king pandemic. Political principles more important than people's lives !

    Also tried to tell me that EU countries hadn't closed their borders. FFS.
    Italy was also part of the PIIGS. The problems were caused by the system itself and each country had their own version of what caused it but it was all due to the rules of each individual country.

    If Italy decide to leave they, like the UK, will not be stopped. Each country has the right to make this decision as we saw with the UK.

    I don't think the german to whom you spoke is aware what free movement of people actually entails and that it too has a mechanism that a country can use in a crisis. The borders are currently open but with severe restrictions. I see the sign on the motorway every morning*. The only country that I heard of which had completely closed its borders for a while was Hungary with Austria causing long tailbacks.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Would Ireland have been allowed to give state aid to Aer Lingus during the bailout years? For us that was a bigger financial crisis than this one is likely to be, even at worst case scenario projections.

    I'm not an expert but I would be surprised if it would have been allowed. Ireland would then have had to decide whether giving state aid and saving Aer Lingus would be more important that the fines and political pain that would follow.

    *Sortie restreinte F,DE,I,A.
    Exiting the country to enter France,Germany,Italy and Austria is serverly limited but the border itself is still there, manned and opened for those who have the right. I heard of someone who went to do their shopping in france. He crossed the border before being stopped by the police and fined for not having the proper documentation.


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    #67
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That doesn't answer my question. You know damn well they would have been allowed to fail.

    That's what I said. They'd have been allowed to fail and rightly so.


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    #68
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    That's what I said. They'd have been allowed to fail and rightly so.

    Great so Air France and Airbus should fail and rightly so.


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    #69
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm not against the idea of the EC, but the EU, I am against. Every time you hear them talking about closer and closer integration - no one wants this except for the most extreme europhiles.

    I don't want to live in a United States of Europe. Can we not just keep the good parts and get rid of the rest?

    A USE is about 100 million years away , plus or minus 3 months.

    Tell me and be specific what parts of the EU you want to get rid of ?

    Also outline in detail what your understanding of the difference between the EC and the EU are.


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    #70
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,422 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    A USE is about 100 million years away , plus or minus 3 months.

    Tell me and be specific what parts of the EU you want to get rid of ?

    Also outline in detail what your understanding of the difference between the EC and the EU are.

    What specific parts, lol. As if he'll have any idea about how the institutions work.

    It's almost like the more you oppose the EU is inversely proportional to your knowledge of the EU.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    What specific parts, lol. As if he'll have any idea about how the institutions work.

    It's almost like the more you oppose the EU is inversely proportional to your knowledge of the EU.

    The parts where the vast majority of law is set at EU level for a start. The remit of the EU is far too large in this area. Some laws to guarantee basic standards are fine, especially around food and medicine safety, but the huge raft of increasingly minute law is really going too far. GDPR being a good example.

    The part where we are heading towards "tax harmonisation" which really means tax rates to suit Germany and France.


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    #72
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The parts where the vast majority of law is set at EU level for a start. The remit of the EU is far too large in this area. Some laws to guarantee basic standards are fine, especially around food and medicine safety, but the huge raft of increasingly minute law is really going too far. GDPR being a good example.

    The part where we are heading towards "tax harmonisation" which really means tax rates to suit Germany and France.

    I did say be specific . The bit about the stuff with the thing isn't specific or as you put it 'but the huge raft of increasingly minute law is really going too far.'

    So you like large companies stealing and misusing your data?

    We've a veto on tax so that ain't happening.

    Any comment on ECC V EU?


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    #73
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Great so Air France and Airbus should fail and rightly so.
    If you can't see the difference between mismanaged company needing a bailout and a well managed company you're beyond hope


    My preferred option would be to re-nationalise.


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    #74
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,178 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    end of the road wrote: »
    ...we are in a situation like nothing we have ever known, so while generally the rules are the rules, given the current situation they are likely being relaxed, necessarily so as to help countries keep on their feat...

    That's for damn sure. As they say - rules for fools, guidelines for the wise.


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    #75
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    If you can't see the difference between mismanaged company needing a bailout and a well managed company you're beyond hope


    My preferred option would be to re-nationalise.

    Oh so the EU is in to renationalisation now is it?

    You know damn well Sabena collapsed in the downturn straight after 9/11.

    You also know damn well it does not matter how well managed a company in Ireland is we would never be allowed to bailout any company now particularly an airline.

    If you don't believe that you are living in cuckoo land.

    You can not see the difference in how France is treated in an emergency and how the rest are treated (other than Germany and Netherlands)?

    You need to wake up in my opinion.

    The rules are being broken but you're grand with that.

    Not one rule will be broken for this country when we are in a crisis, I guarantee you that.


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    #76
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »

    So you like large companies stealing and misusing your data?

    The question you should be asking is do Irish people like that? Maybe they do? Maybe a majority couldn't care less.

    We can and should make our own rules these areas.

    We are supposed to a republic for goodness sake.


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    #77
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

    Not one rule will be broken for this country when we are in a crisis, I guarantee you that.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact

    Sin é


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    #78
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact

    Sin é

    And? What has that got to do with anything?


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    #79
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The question you should be asking is do Irish people like that? Maybe they do? Maybe a majority couldn't care less.

    We can and should make our own rules these areas.

    We are supposed to a republic for goodness sake.

    The majority of people Irish or not couldn't care less about 99.99% of rules and regulations . So what ? It doesn't mean they are not needed . Do I care about laws maintaining standards in deep sea diving equipment? Nope ! Never been , never will be. Doesn't mean we don't need those laws.


    We can and do make our own rules , along with our friends in the club we willingly joined and can leave at anytime


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    #80
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    And? What has that got to do with anything?

    It was broken\ignored to help out the bailed out countries


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    #81
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    It was broken to help out the PIIGS counties

    Not intentionally. There is no logic to your point.

    You are becoming lost in your arguments.

    I'm talking about state aid rules.

    Although if you want to talk about the med countries in the prison that is the Euro that helps keeps them down by all means.


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    #82
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,101 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Oh so the EU is in to renationalisation now is it?

    You know damn well Sabena collapsed in the downturn straight after 9/11.

    You also know damn well it does not matter how well managed a company in Ireland is we would never be allowed to bailout any company now particularly an airline.

    If you don't believe that you are living in cuckoo land.

    You can not see the difference in how France is treated in an emergency and how the rest are treated (other than Germany and Netherlands)?

    You need to wake up in my opinion.

    The rules are being broken but you're grand with that.

    Not one rule will be broken for this country when we are in a crisis, I guarantee you that.

    again nope wrong.
    the rules are being relaxed, under the relevant mechanism within those rules to allow for relaxation during certain situations, due to the current crisis so as to help keep countries on their feat.
    there are generally mechanisms to help countries when they are in an individual crisis, hence there wouldn't need to be a wholesale relaxation of the rules.
    relaxation of rules as allowed for within those rules is not breaking or removing the rules, no amount of conspiracy theorist style nonsense willl change that.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The question you should be asking is do Irish people like that? Maybe they do? Maybe a majority couldn't care less.

    We can and should make our own rules these areas.

    We are supposed to a republic for goodness sake.

    we do make our own rules.
    we also vote for or against proposed rules by the EU.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #83
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Not intentionally. There is no logic to your point.

    You are becoming lost in your arguments.

    I'm talking about state aid rules.

    Although if you want to talk about the med countries in the prison that is the Euro that helps keeps them down by all means.

    I'm not lost anywhere if you could stop 'playing the man' that would be super . You said the EU wouldn't bend it's rules for us, it has before .

    Giving countries massive bailout which increased their debt wasn't intentional?

    Prison? Here's the door https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12012M050 they are free to use it


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