Can employer make me take a 20% wage cut?

lcstress2012

Your moaning cause you have to take a 20% wage cut?

Your employer is probably doing this to save the business and your job! Look at it this way, you’ll probably pay less tax with the cut. Just deal with it like everyone else.

Just be thankful and lucky enough that you still have a job and income coming in!

kennethsmyth

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Yeah there are repercussions, all it takes is an employee that decides to not let it go.

Not really though. The company will just make up a false record of events. That’s what a HR department is really for.

lcstress2012

lcstress2012 wrote: »

Your moaning cause you have to take a 20% wage cut?

Your employer is probably doing this to save the business and your job! Look at it this way, you’ll probably pay less tax with the cut. Just deal with it like everyone else.

Just be thankful and lucky enough that you still have a job and income coming in!

Don’t forget the vaseline. Unless you like it sore.

kennethsmyth

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Not really though. The company will just make up a false record of events. That’s what a HR department is really for.

Wow, just wow..... we went from can an employer legally reduce your wage without your consent to what could possibly be perjury in a court. You sir better get used to confinement.

noodler

Whilst I don't advocate taking it no questions asked, there does seem to be a bit of naivete/ignorance by some on here.

Do people think we have 800,000 people on the LR/Pandemic Payment/Temporary Wage Subsidy for no reason?

Do you really think the company hasn't been effected by the pandemic?

Gone Drinking

Some laughable responses here from people. These are circumstances of which we've never seen before. Companies have to take actions to ensure they live through the worst of it. We can see the industries hit hardest but no one is safe here.

We were asked to take a 20 percent cut in our place across the board. From CEO all the way down. The idea being that it is reviewed monthly and will be reverted when we've weathered the storm.

It was put to us simply, we're doing this to avoid redundancies. Everyone agreed to it because no one wants to see anyone out of a job right now.

Ps. To answer the original question, can you be forced to take a paycut; it depends on your specific contract but in most cases no. They'll need to cut your hours 20 percent, legally. As a senior manager I know that people will stand their ground and go the legal route to avoid taking the cut and they will win. However, its internal career suicide that will heavily impact your odds of progression and most likely get you on the cuts shortlist, if they come and its legal to do so. Basically, if you do it without good reason, you'll be **** on later.

Augme

noodler wrote: »

Whilst I don't advocate taking it no questions asked, there does seem to be a bit of naivete/ignorance by some on here.

Do people think we have 800,000 people on the LR/Pandemic Payment/Temporary Wage Subsidy for no reason?

Important to remember there are plenty of businesses that are cleaning up because of this pandemic. And if they can convince their staff to take a 20% pay cut on top of it. Happy days.

There will also of shrewd organisations who will see this as a great opportunity to cut their staffs wages by 20% knowing that getting giving that 20% back to staff might never be an option.

McGiver

fungie wrote: »

We were given a document signed by CEO informing us of salary cut. There was no option to agree (or disagree).

I believe this is illegal. But others can confirm.

McGiver

Augme wrote: »

Important to remember there are plenty of businesses that are cleaning up because of this pandemic. And if they can convince their staff to take a 20% pay cut on top of it. Happy days.

There will also of shrewd organisations who will see this as a great opportunity to cut their staffs wages by 20% knowing that getting giving that 20% back to staff might never be an option.

Yes, many opportunists. And they also socialise the costs by applying for the revenue grant (the government pays some of the wages)...

noodler

Augme wrote: »

Important to remember there are plenty of businesses that are cleaning up because of this pandemic. And if they can convince their staff to take a 20% pay cut on top of it. Happy days.

There will also of shrewd organisations who will see this as a great opportunity to cut their staffs wages by 20% knowing that getting giving that 20% back to staff might never be an option.

Which businesses are these?

Supermarkets, Amazon?

Important to note with LR and COVID payment/subsidy numbers at 800k the vast, vast, vast majority of businesses are actually suffering.

_Brian

McGiver wrote: »

Can someone advise on this?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/change_job_contract.html

Pay rates are covered as a contractual issue and cannot be changed without your specific agreement.

Dav010

Augme wrote: »

Important to remember there are plenty of businesses that are cleaning up because of this pandemic. And if they can convince their staff to take a 20% pay cut on top of it. Happy days.
.

Which businesses would those be?

skallywag

Seve OB wrote: »

Have a read here And tell your mate to go to the WRC


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/being_asked_to_reduce_your_hours_of_work.html

Thank you for the link, I passed it on over the weekend and the chap gave them a call this morning, they have a number listed on their site. He just gave me a call to let me know how he got on.

The feedback that he received was pretty much identical to that received previously, i.e. if the employer can demonstrate that he sincerely cannot afford to continue paying the staff at the current rate, then refusing the pay cut can most certainly leave you open to losing your job. There is actually also a paragraph there which makes mention to this:

If you say you wish to continue working as before your employer may decide to make you redundant. If you are dismissed in this way, you may qualify to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. Unless your employer can prove there was a genuine redundancy situation and that fair procedures were followed, this dismissal may be found to be unfair.

The employer himself has a very good reputation and is known to be very decent to the staff, and the majority of staff that you would meet who work there would speak highly of the place in general and their work conditions, etc. So I would imagine the need for the paycut itself is completely genuine.

As for the terms of the job loss itself, he was told that the company had to cut costs in order to survive, and hence the team that he was working in needed to be downsized, so technically I guess he was made redundant. He has no issue with the separation terms that he was offered by the way, in fact they paid him out immediately also for the 2 month notice period which he has in his contract and just told him he can leave effective immediately. He also said that there is no issue concerning any redundancy payment which he is due etc.

So they are the facts as I understand them today. I agree with the point made by Witchgirl in a previous post that if you have good reasons for making an argument against a cut then you might be successful in very special cases, but in general I would say that saying no just for the sake of it is not a good idea if you want to keep your job at the moment. The only thing that I would advise is that someone at least contact the source provided by SeveOB before doing so in any case.

By the way, the citizens info lady did not say that it was completely black and white, so there could be an avenue to challenge it. Her opinion was that a successful claim would be 'very unlikely' in her opinion.

Usually in any contract I've seen is that the Company reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of employment which I would also take that to mean salary.

You don't have to agree to it but could be seen as a breech of contract.

Outkast_IRE

Deleted User wrote: »

Usually in any contract I've seen is that the Company reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of employment which I would also take that to mean salary.

You don't have to agree to it but could be seen as a breech of contract.

It wouldnt be the first time a company wrote something in to a contract to suit themselves but doesnt actually comply with legislation or the law on that matter. Alot of these clauses when tested in court are not enforceable as they are contrary to law.

_Kaiser_

My employer has asked for a 6-month 10% cut (same hours and workload) and confimed it's voluntary but like many others here have said, I'm under no illusion that refusing will mark your card either way.
I'm not happy about it as it comes on the back of them enforcing mandatory 2 weeks leave on everyone as well recently, and I equally know that if it comes to it, reduncies will follow regardless of employee goodwill.

I'm also not there 2 years yet so wouldn't get redundancy anyway if it comes, and I don't see a long term future with the place anyway but I don't want to be unemployed either.

Honestly don't know what to do.

If they’re going to shaft you anyway if you accept then just refuse.

Treppen

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

If they’re going to shaft you anyway if you accept then just refuse.

This... either way they'll do what they are going to do regardless of the OP's stance.

It kind of depends on the OP's standing in the company too, are they easily replaceable or not.

Are they still paying their shareholders dividends?

If they think their share price is in trouble then an employee share scheme is more carrot than stick.

skallywag

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Honestly don't know what to do.

We have the exact same situation, with forced holidays over Easter, and a pay cut for the rest of the year, in return for some additional paid leave.

Sure, it is a pain, but it is certainly the lesser of two evils when I take a look to other people I know who have either lost their job already or have their hours cut in half or more.

Under the current circumstances I really think that someone would be plain daft to refuse to be honest with you, unless there are truly exceptional circumstances which can be argued.

dennyk

Deleted User wrote: »

Usually in any contract I've seen is that the Company reserve the right to change the terms and conditions of employment which I would also take that to mean salary.

You don't have to agree to it but could be seen as a breech of contract.

Yeah, that isn't how contracts work at all. "I agree that the other party can unilaterally change any terms of this contract at any time..." ain't going to fly in court.

The most likely scenario if an employee doesn't want to accept the pay cut is going to be a redundancy, if the business is really in a bind and can't continue while paying people's original salaries. While an employee made redundant in such a way might be able to challenge it, they may not be successful unless the employer does something foolishly obvious like hiring someone else (at the lower rate of pay) to replace them within a short time; one of the suitable reasons for redundancy is that the employer has decided they need fewer staff to carry on the business. If they just made the remaining employees shoulder the work of the redundant employee going forward and didn't hire anyone else until business actually increases again in the future, it would likely be considered a valid redundancy.

_Kaiser_

Update on my post above.

Despite being pitched as a voluntary cut, it turns out they're running it as opt out and that if you don't respond, they'll presume consent. Worse, when trying to access the details on line you have to accept before you can view it.

I've thus emailed one of the directors for a chat as I was under the impression that a company cannot just force you to take a cut.

skallywag

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

...Worse, when trying to access the details on line you have to accept before you can view it. .

As in you have to accept to take the paycut before you can see the details of the same?

_Kaiser_

skallywag wrote: »

As in you have to accept to take the paycut before you can see the details of the same?

Yup.. it pops up like a disclaimer and I (half expecting this would happen) clicked OK after getting pushed back by my own manager and it then shows that you've confirmed.

When you then open the details it's phrased as opt-out and if we don't hear from you it's deemed accepted.

To be honest I'm inclined to refuse on principle at this stage.

JimmyVik

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yup.. it pops up like a disclaimer and I (half expecting this would happen) clicked OK after getting pushed back by my own manager and it then shows that you've confirmed.

When you then open the details it's phrased as opt-out and if we don't hear from you it's deemed accepted.

To be honest I'm inclined to refuse on principle at this stage.

Record all that and in a year or two go to a solicitor to get back all the back pay you didnt actually agree to being cut.


My company sent a mail around asking people to take 10% cuts. I got a few calls from some of the guys saying that they volunteered for a 10% cut in 2009 and never got it back. While others still there who never took the cut were are laughing at them now.

_Kaiser_

JimmyVik wrote: »

Record all that and in a year or two go to a solicitor to get back all the back pay you didnt actually agree to being cut.


My company sent a mail around asking people to take 10% cuts. I got a few calls from some of the guys saying that they volunteered for a 10% cut in 2009 and never got it back. While others still there who never took the cut were are laughing at them now.

I did ask about "getting it back" at some point but apparently that idea was already rejected. Even less reason to accept IMO but especially as the way they've gone about it isn't sitting well with me.

skallywag

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yup.. it pops up like a disclaimer and I (half expecting this would happen) clicked OK after getting pushed back by my own manager and it then shows that you've confirmed.

When you then open the details it's phrased as opt-out and if we don't hear from you it's deemed accepted.

To be honest I'm inclined to refuse on principle at this stage.

OK, if you cannot read the details before accepting or not then that is downright disgraceful. I am no employment law expert but I believe that is completely illegal.

ffocused

OP I had a similar issue during the last recession.

I was asked to take 2 pay cuts within 3 months, accepted the first one and did not agree to second one.
Company forced it through regardless and I checked with a solicitor.
Solicitor confirmed it was illegal, but if I took it to court the judge was likely to side with the company due to the recession.
I then went and got another job and handed in my notice.
One week before I left, the company went into administration.

skallywag

ffocused wrote: »

Solicitor confirmed it was illegal, but if I took it to court the judge was likely to side with the company due to the recession.

This sounds similar to advice that an acquaintance of mine received when he called the Citizens Information line last week. If you refuse to take the cut then you can very likely be made redundant afterwards. Yes, you can challenge this legally, but if the company can demonstrate that it is really necessary in order to continue operations, then the chances of a ruling going in your favour in the current climate is very unlikely.

All in all I think we have little or no pragmatic choice at the moment rather than take a cut. That said, the way the company in _Kaiser_'s case is handling this is absolute bolloxology.

howamidifferent

I've been asked to take a 20% cut for six months but have sent back a firm no.
Pay rises where I work have been denied many years even prior to the last recession and again for the past two years.

JimmyVik

I said in another thread and got jumped on by "company men" who think companies do no wrong.

Many companies will not waste a good recession, even if they arent impacted.