Dept of Social Protection: We won’t report illegal migrants who claim dole

Where you from?

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

If someone is here illegally and no longer has work then what would you suggest the State do with them? Deport them, give them accommodation and 3 meals a day, etc etc?

Clover hill prison until such time as deportation can be carried out.

Yurt2

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

If someone is here illegally and no longer has work then what would you suggest the State do with them? Deport them, give them accommodation and 3 meals a day, etc etc?

I know this sounds hard hearted but they know where the airport is.

We really can't afford to pay for people we didn't give permission to be here in the first instance. They are fully aware of their status.

Montage of Feck

The €350 is only to be payed to those who can't work due to covid-19 afaik, to me that's fair enough if it's being payed to people who came here to work. It's the blatent chancers that here to unashamedly fleece our generous welfare system should be dealt with first.

wiggle16

DelaneyIn wrote: »

They’d still be registered with revenue. Revenue doesnt cross check with INIS for active PPSN without working permissions.

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

There's no such thing as being "registered" with Revenue. You either have a job or source of income that Revenue know about, or you don't.

Meaning that you cannot claim the covid-19 payment without having been let go from an active employment or without evidence of self-employment. In which case you will have been paying tax like everyone else here.

And if you have been employed and paying tax USC and PRSI then you are entitled to the payment irrespective of whether or not you are legally entitled to be in Ireland or not. So you can stop making out that illegal migrants are getting through some loop hole that the department have deliberately left wide open to them. They're not.

Yurt2

wiggle16 wrote: »

And if you have been employed and paying tax USC and PRSI then you are entitled to the payment irrespective of whether or not you are legally entitled to be in Ireland or not. So you can stop making out that illegal migrants are getting through some loop hole that the department have deliberately left wide open to them. They're not.

To the letter, habitual residence is a condition of accessing welfare. See link:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

"If you do not have a legal right of residence in this State, you will not be regarded as habitually resident"

Why this is being ignored in this instance (and perhaps in others) is worthy of enquiry.

DelaneyIn

wiggle16 wrote: »

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

There's no such thing as being "registered" with Revenue. You either have a job or source of income that Revenue know about, or you don't.

Meaning that you cannot claim the covid-19 payment without having been let go from an active employment or without evidence of self-employment. In which case you will have been paying tax like everyone else here.

And if you have been employed and paying tax USC and PRSI then you are entitled to the payment irrespective of whether or not you are legally entitled to be in Ireland or not. So you can stop making out that illegal migrants are getting through some loop hole that the department have deliberately left wide open to them. They're not.

I meant that if someone is registered as paying tax with revenue this information is not shared with INIS. Revenue don’t care about your immigration status.

The department of social protection took to social media to assure people that if they’re illegal and claim, this information won’t be shared with the relevant immigration authorities.

Now, why the hell are we paying welfare to people who don’t even have the legal right to be in the country?

Sardonicat

DelaneyIn wrote: »

I meant that if someone is registered as paying tax with revenue this information is not shared with INIS. Revenue don’t care about your immigration status.

The department of social protection took to social media to assure people that if they’re illegal and claim, this information won’t be shared with the relevant immigration authorities.

Now, why the hell are we paying welfare to people who don’t even have the legal right to be in the country?

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, unless there is evidence that you've been let go from a job as a result of covid 19, you can claim away but you won't get anything.

Idbatterim

jimmyrustle wrote: »

Most illegals working. Plenty with forms of permission to stay visas or EU free movement rights are not working.

There are plenty of reforms needed to overhaul our welfare system.

- Disability entitlements
- Multi generational dole dependency
- the direct provision racket
- EU nationals coming here with no intent of working

A few thousand Chinese fast food cooks and Brazillian delivery drivers who are now entitled to 350 quid for six to 12 weeks are very, very bottom of the pile.

Oh YEAH! and will FG, the supposed party of the worker, do anything about this? LOL! LOL!

I know many, layed off, better off on this E350 payment, than they were, when working! Jesus this is priceless when you think about it! Thats what you get with spineless and inept populism up the top!

Yurt2

Sardonicat wrote: »

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, unless there is evidence that you've been let go from a job as a result of covid 19, you can claim away but you won't get anything.

As has been covered in the thread, a better question would be if it is long-standing elaborated government policy that illegals / overstayers / undocumented (however you want to cut it) are not entitled for consideration for welfare, why on earth are they being invited to do so?

Is this a recent policy volte face, and does it have a legal basis?

This is one of those things that would be worthy of debate in the Dáil to be honest.

I'd be of the strong opinion that in dire economic circumstances such as this, the only commitments we should be making are to our own citizens and those with permission to be here, not to do those who quite frankly invited themselves in.

Eric Cartman

So at a time when our welfare state is more pressed than ever and were running out of money head first into a recession, we decide to ignore the already massive elephant in the room of immigrant welfare fraud.

Anyone who thinks FG are right wing , smush your poe face against the glass and look in the window to see whats going on here. Nothing vaugely conservative about them

Jizique

Idbatterim wrote: »

Oh YEAH! and will FG, the supposed party of the worker, do anything about this? LOL! LOL!

I know many, layed off, better off on this E350 payment, than they were, when working! Jesus this is priceless when you think about it! Thats what you get with spineless and inept populism up the top!

Wait till SF get in and give 350 to everyone employed or not, plus no need to pay rent or mortgage as you will never be evicted

wiggle16

Yurt! wrote: »

As has been covered in the thread, a better question would be if it is long-standing elaborated government policy that illegals / overstayers / undocumented (however you want to cut it) are not entitled for consideration for welfare, why on earth are they being invited to do so?

Is this a recent policy volte face, and does it have a legal basis?

This is one of those things that would be worthy of debate in the Dáil to be honest.

I'd be of the strong opinion that in dire economic circumstances such as this, the only commitments we should be making are to our own citizens and those with permission to be here, not to do those who quite frankly invited themselves in.

The link you posted states quite clearly that habitual residence is not defined in Irish law. The idea therefore that the department is doung something illegal is a smokescreen for what you really have a problem with here, I think.

Would you rather immigrants didn't work, legally or illegally, and lived off the state via direct provision or otherwise? Or would you rather they worked and paid tax until their status is established?

How would you like it? You can't have it both ways.

Yurt2

wiggle16 wrote: »

The link you posted states quite clearly that habitual residence is not defined in Irish law. The idea therefore that the department is doung something illegal is a smokescreen for what you really have a problem with here, I think.

Would you rather immigrants didn't work, legally or illegally, and lived off the state via direct provision or otherwise? Or would you rather they worked and paid tax until their status is established?

How would you like it? You can't have it both ways.

I'd rather that we had a functioning coherent immigration system. That's a realistic prospect and doesn't form part of your either or proposition. I'm not an absolutist, I recognise we'll never fully root-out illegal immigration, but it needs to be minimised to the greatest extent possible. I believe it's a net-negative for society (and I'm not speaking of orderly legal migration).

Habitual residency being legally defined or not, it's elaborated long-standing government policy that illegal immigrants shall not have access to welfare. There are powerful moral and economic arguements why this should be the case and remain the case.

This is one of those cases where such a policy about-face most definitely needs a public debate and at the very least put to the Dáil for debate. There is no aspect of public consent to this and if you put it to people that this was possible, I think most would be very surprised and perhaps angry about it.

I'm sorry, I really don't believe we owe Paolo the Deliveroo guy who forgot to go back to Recife after his 'English language course' finished three years ago a thing. I really really don't.

DelaneyIn

wiggle16 wrote: »

The link you posted states quite clearly that habitual residence is not defined in Irish law. The idea therefore that the department is doung something illegal is a smokescreen for what you really have a problem with here, I think.

Would you rather immigrants didn't work, legally or illegally, and lived off the state via direct provision or otherwise? Or would you rather they worked and paid tax until their status is established?

How would you like it? You can't have it both ways.

How can an illegal immigrant be habitually resident? Secondly, I think most would prefer that illegals are deported. Not working and definitely not claiming dole.

Hoboo

DelaneyIn wrote: »

Now, why the hell are we paying welfare to people who don’t even have the legal right to be in the country?

To encourage them to stay at home, or come forward if theyre displaying symptoms.

It's not that hard to understand.

wiggle16

DelaneyIn wrote: »

How can an illegal immigrant be habitually resident?

Read the citizensinfo link yurt posted.

Secondly, I think most would prefer that illegals are deported. Not working and definitely not claiming dole.

You think most people want what you want. I think that if most people took the time to understand illegal migration they would understand that it is not as simplistic as you appear to believe it is and that while the immigration system here is ridiculous and unfair to the State and the taxpayer (including us) and migrants, it is unreasonable to expect people who enter the country to live on fresh air until they are either deported or have their status regularised. It's not realistic and if you think that illegal migration can be stopped entirely then you're a hiding to nothing.

I would rather they work to pay their way until their fate is decided and if they are working and paying tax then they are entitled to claim social welfare when they are out of work.

Anything else is vindictive. Nothing short of vindictive.

Kivaro

wiggle16 wrote: »

I would rather they work to pay their way until their fate is decided and if they are working and paying tax then they are entitled to claim social welfare when they are out of work.
.....

Was thinking about this topic earlier.
It is a tough one. I'd be inclined to agree with the comment above; if they have a proven work record and paid into the system, then during a catastrophic economic environment and while a lock down is in place, they should receive social payments. When the lock down is over, then any further payments will need to be tied into a determination of their legal situation.

From my own personal experience, I've yet to meet a working migrant that I didn't like
The issue for most are the migrants and asylum seekers who come here specifically for the very generous welfare benefits and welfare services provided to them in Ireland. Without any notion of working, they treat the Irish worker as subservient to them.
From my own personal experience, I've yet to meet a non-working migrant that I did like. Roma gypies are one example.

JohnnyFlash

Jesus, we know there's illegal immigrants in Ireland, and across the EU. They tend to work in really crap industries like cleaning, takeaway delivery, au-pair, fruit and vegetable picking etc. It does need to be looked at, but now isn't the time to do so. They work cash-in-hand, and most of them are now out of work. What do we want to happen to them?

Let them not be able to pay their rent and eat? Deport them? Who would pay for their ticket home, and is any other country advocating such a thing?

Allowing people to access support during this crisis is a fundamentally decent thing to do. We can go and reappraise the approach when we have the time. What you don't want now is people who work week-to-week wandering the streets. That's social democracy.

Yurt2

wiggle16 wrote: »

Read the citizensinfo link yurt posted.


Anything else is vindictive. Nothing short of vindictive.

The link sets out gov policy. Which states that those without permission to reside shall not be considered to be habitually resident, and not eligible for social welfare supports. Quite the opposite of what you're inferring.

biko

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Jesus, we know there's illegal immigrants in Ireland, and across the EU. They tend to work in really crap industries like cleaning, takeaway delivery, au-pair, fruit and vegetable picking etc. It does need to be looked at, but now isn't the time to do so. They work cash-in-hand, and most of them are now out of work. What do we want to happen to them?

Let them not be able to pay their rent and eat? Deport them? Who would pay for their ticket home, and is any other country advocating such a thing?

Allowing people to access support during this crisis is a fundamentally decent thing to do. We can go and reappraise the approach when we have the time. What you don't want now is people who work week-to-week wandering the streets. That's social democracy.

I am totally fine with you paying for people that shouldn't be here.
I am not totally fine with me paying for people that shouldn't be here.

Eric Cartman

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Jesus, we know there's illegal immigrants in Ireland, and across the EU. They tend to work in really crap industries like cleaning, takeaway delivery, au-pair, fruit and vegetable picking etc. It does need to be looked at, but now isn't the time to do so. They work cash-in-hand, and most of them are now out of work. What do we want to happen to them?

Let them not be able to pay their rent and eat? Deport them? Who would pay for their ticket home, and is any other country advocating such a thing?

Allowing people to access support during this crisis is a fundamentally decent thing to do. We can go and reappraise the approach when we have the time. What you don't want now is people who work week-to-week wandering the streets. That's social democracy.

In jobs you forgot prostitution, drug dealing, organised begging, burglary gangs, credit card fraud, identity theft , document fraud, welfare fraud and the other many criminal activities that illegal immigrants very commonly derive their income from in Ireland

wiggle16

Eric Cartman wrote: »

In jobs you forgot prostitution, drug dealing, organised begging, burglary gangs, credit card fraud, identity theft , document fraud, welfare fraud and the other many criminal activities that illegal immigrants very commonly derive their income from in Ireland

1) Irish people engage in all of these things too.

2) Absolutely nothing to do with what JohnnyFlash was saying. I'm at a loss as to the relevance.

3) People who derive their income from these activities are, I would say, rather unlikely to be operating a charge to PRSI on this income, and so they will not be able to claim the covid 19 payment...

Eric Cartman

wiggle16 wrote: »

1) Irish people engage in all of these things too.

2) Absolutely nothing to do with what JohnnyFlash was saying. I'm at a loss as to the relevance.

3) People who derive their income from these activities are, I would say, rather unlikely to be operating a charge to PRSI on this income, and so they will not be able to claim the covid 19 payment...

1) doesnt matter, irish people are here by right , these people are not, less criminals is still a priority just because we cant stamp it all put doesnt mean we let the illegal ones off the hook.

2) he only pointed out the ways they positiviely contribute, which is a minority of them, illegal immigrants are net detractors from our society.

3) the sex workers association of Ireland are campaigning for illegal immigrants to be given access to the payment and a firewall between health services and immigration so they can continue their illegal drain on our state. The government has said it is alright with illegal immigrants claiming during this. This is a systematic and unacceptable blind eye turned to a major source of crime in our country.

DelaneyIn

wiggle16 wrote: »

Read the citizensinfo link yurt posted.



You think most people want what you want. I think that if most people took the time to understand illegal migration they would understand that it is not as simplistic as you appear to believe it is and that while the immigration system here is ridiculous and unfair to the State and the taxpayer (including us) and migrants, it is unreasonable to expect people who enter the country to live on fresh air until they are either deported or have their status regularised. It's not realistic and if you think that illegal migration can be stopped entirely then you're a hiding to nothing.

I would rather they work to pay their way until their fate is decided and if they are working and paying tax then they are entitled to claim social welfare when they are out of work.

Anything else is vindictive. Nothing short of vindictive.

There is nothing vindictive about wanting the law of the land to be implemented. We are either a nation of laws or we are not.

The European Return Fund (RF), in which all EU countries participate except for Denmark, allocates EUR 676 million over a five year period to be used by member states to repatriate illegals.

We should be tapping some of that budget up instead of topping up illegals bank balance with dole payments.

The deserve a swift and humane repatriation. Not dole payments from a small, heavily indebted island which is in crisis.

standardg60

biko wrote: »

I am totally fine with you paying for people that shouldn't be here.
I am not totally fine with me paying for people that shouldn't be here.

I am totally fine with paying for people who were working and are now not working regardless of where they're from.
I am not totally fine with paying for people who have never worked regardless of where they're from.

For me, 'our own', are all of those who actually contribute to our society, regardless of where they're from or whether they're legally entitled to be here.

What is the difference between an Irish person scamming welfare and an illegal immigrant scamming welfare?

Racism.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So at a time when our welfare state is more pressed than ever and were running out of money head first into a recession, we decide to ignore the already massive elephant in the room of immigrant welfare fraud.

Anyone who thinks FG are right wing , smush your poe face against the glass and look in the window to see whats going on here. Nothing vaugely conservative about them

In fairness to fg they are slightly the furthest right part here , slightly left of centre on the spectrum

biko

standardg60 wrote: »

What is the difference between an Irish person scamming welfare and an illegal immigrant scamming welfare?

Racism.

What is the difference between an American in US scamming the US welfare system, and an Irish person overstaying their visa scamming the US welfare system?

Racism?

standardg60

biko wrote: »

What is the difference between an American in US scamming the US welfare system, and an Irish person overstaying their visa scamming the US welfare system?

Racism?

There is no difference.
My answer was for those who think there is.

irishproduce

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://nascireland.org/know-your-rights/covid-19-social-welfare-updates

https://gript.ie/social-protection-migrants-dole/

Absolutely disgraceful and just makes a mockery of our welfare system. Fraudulent individuals making claims should be reported and dealt with appropriately with severe financial penalties and deportations.

The last paragraph in the quote, smacks of a piece tacked on to distract from the obvious farce of a situation of the sentences that precede it. We (an arm of the state) will not tell the justice department of this state of your law breaking. Also anyone sick from the virus will be welcome and treated regardless of status.

The tacked on part is virtuous, something to be proud of an no decent person could object to, but it is added by the dept to reduce the ridiculousness of what precedes it.

This matter should be raised in the dail without delay.

DelaneyIn

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://nascireland.org/know-your-rights/covid-19-social-welfare-updates

https://gript.ie/social-protection-migrants-dole/

Absolutely disgraceful and just makes a mockery of our welfare system. Fraudulent individuals making claims should be reported and dealt with appropriately with severe financial penalties and deportations.

If they’re undocumented, how would they have a PPSN?

Personally, I’ve no problem with everyone being supported at this time, no matter their age, gender or origin.