Scrappage scheme to help the car industry post COVID-19?

Idbatterim

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

When the WLTP is fully introduced (as it will be later on this year) new car prices are just going to go one way, and that is up.

The full WLTP will result in higher CO2 and hence, VRT and motor tax, even though the cars themselves will be unchanged from before (except the usual model/engine updates).

So a 2020 car will actually be less desirable than the equivalent car from last year, or especially 2018 (when everything was still on the NEDC).

I don't really see what a scrappage scheme is going to do for incentivising new car sales as people are going to be paying more in motor tax for exactly the same car. We've had 'cheap tax' cars since 2008, so there isn't the guaranteed money saving on tax every year like there was in the last scrappage scheme, and anyway going from say €280 if you're in the B1 tax band to €200 in the A1 tax band isn't really much of a difference anyway.

Of course, PHEVs and EVs will be unaffected (some PHEVs, like those made by BMW actually have lower CO2 ratings on WLTP than NEDC), but the problem with them is that there is no little to no fuel duty and obviously motor tax is lower - not exactly a thing we need in a country where there is going to be no money. Despite what the idiotic populists in the Shinners, and other mad left wing parties want you to believe, there is no such thing as free money, everything has to be bought for and paid for, and we have to balance our books. The world does not owe us a living, we need to be able to fund all the public services we say we want, and that means more car tax, higher fuel duties, or higher income tax, or property tax. No matter how much the left and far left wants to hoodwink you into thinking otherwise, you cannot have your cake and eat it. Prudent economic management has never been more important, otherwise we won't have the money to (rightly) bail out everyone who has been unfortunate enough to have lost their jobs during this pandemic or to lessen the impact of the next recession.

And as for taxation, well the only party that committed to any sort of meaningful tax reduction (Fine Gael) was rewarded for this incentive to promote hard work and self-betterment by getting their lowest ever share of the first preference vote... Irish people as a whole don't seem to be interested in tax cuts the way we once were like in the boom of the early 2000s, where FF's tax cuts won them the 2002 and 2007 elections.

If you want less taxation, you actually have to vote for it - not moan about it on random internet forums.

the newer taxation system is comedy! "taxes will go up" whats going to happen, the difference between the lower bands are all irrelevant, what happens, the emissions move up a bit and somebody now pays a tenner a year more on motor tax?! take a look at the below link with the rates!

https://www.carzone.ie/news/motoringadvice/Motor-and-Road-Tax-Prices-Ireland-2017-1437.html

you mention the shinners in your post! HAAAAAAAAA are they responsible for having nearly every car in the state sold here in the last few years, paying as good as no motor tax? No, thats another genius FFG move!

The J Stands for Jay

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we're walking right back in to a massive recession. Those who can afford to change will likely go electric to reduce ongoing costs as they will also take advantage of low house prices to move towards the city. Those who cannot afford to change or can no longer get finance will stay with what they have, the 09-12 period was a massive slump in car sales the last time, more of that again this time round.

This whole experience is already costing billions, that will have to be paid somehow and I stuck by Ireland the last recession, not a chance in hell I'm sticking around to pay for this one. Taxation is right at the tipping point where a single cent more and theres no rhyme or reason for anyone in the 70-200k a year bracket to stay, over that you can play funny tax games but that middle-high professional category are the most shafted and it'll get worse.

Where you gonna go? Greenland?

Miscreant

Converting an existing ICE family car to electric would cost anywhere from €10000 to €15000 and more if you want any range past 160km. I don't believe this would be a feasible thing for the Government to subsidise considering the stock of vehicles being converted would still be "old" and people prefer new and shiny when they can get it.
I remember the original scrappage scheme in the 90s and the others in the 2000s and people used it to get themselves in to a new car of basic spec so it was a case of anything with a new reg plate.
Some brands already offer scrappage schemes or guaranteed trade in values anyway (I think some even call them trade in allowances) so ploughing money in to a scheme by the government at the moment I feel would be foolish. We're going to need all the money we can get in order to help people affected by the current crisis so scrappage schemes should be at the bottom of the list of priorities.... Never mind a lot of consumers not being able to afford a new vehicle in the first place.

RandomViewer

saabsaab wrote: »

Not everyone is in this position. This could be aimed at those not in a position to buy a new EV, city drivers and moderate mileage. The jobs potential is much greater here if retrofitting electric motors to an older vehicle with other refurbishments as needed. A new industry running alongside new sales. I’m not talking anything too far gone say suitable 2010 -2015?

You are looking at half a tonne weight gain, what drives decent as a 1.8 petrol will wallow like rhino with all those batteries, unless you intend to use Range Rover Sport or something as a base

Idbatterim

Miscreant wrote: »

Converting an existing ICE family car to electric would cost anywhere from €10000 to €15000 and more if you want any range past 160km. I don't believe this would be a feasible thing for the Government to subsidise considering the stock of vehicles being converted would still be "old" and people prefer new and shiny when they can get it.
I remember the original scrappage scheme in the 90s and the others in the 2000s and people used it to get themselves in to a new car of basic spec so it was a case of anything with a new reg plate.
Some brands already offer scrappage schemes or guaranteed trade in values anyway (I think some even call them trade in allowances) so ploughing money in to a scheme by the government at the moment I feel would be foolish. We're going to need all the money we can get in order to help people affected by the current crisis so scrappage schemes should be at the bottom of the list of priorities.... Never mind a lot of consumers not being able to afford a new vehicle in the first place.

the french are doing it and unlike us, they actually manufacture cars!

RandomViewer

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Still have my 405

Estate?

Ubbquittious

RandomViewer wrote: »

Estate?

No saloon

Cuir_Cosc_Orm

What do the decorative trim on the PorscheMacan, the software running the connected car technologies on the Tesla Model S and the air ducts on the Honda CR-V have in common? They are all produced in Ireland!

What happens when nobody buys a Macan, Tesla or CR-V, these factories shut and people become unemployed and poverty stricken!

RandomViewer

anewme wrote: »

Yes thank you...ahh good times... that one was massive... must sold over 50,000. I remember loads of Puntos and Cuntagetintas being on the roads around that time.

The one in 2009 was nothing compared to that.

They brought the Renault 5 which hadn't been sold here in years to get in under 7 K , they were nearly all light blue for some reason

RandomViewer

Ubbquittious wrote: »

No saloon

Haven't seen a saloon one in years , had a 1.9Sri one myself, brilliant toy,

anewme

RandomViewer wrote: »

They brought the Renault 5 which hadn't been sold here in years to get in under 7 K , they were nearly all light blue for some reason

Dont remember blue ones of them.

Clearly a job lot from somewhere!

I remember mint green punto's and yellow cinqucentos.

Great times. Country was on the up.

Ubbquittious

Cuir_Cosc_Orm wrote: »

What do the decorative trim on the PorscheMacan, the software running the connected car technologies on the Tesla Model S and the air ducts on the Honda CR-V have in common? They are all produced in Ireland!

What happens when nobody buys a Macan, Tesla or CR-V, these factories shut and people become unemployed and poverty stricken!

Bleh. Keeping old cars on the road far more labour intensive. Anyone able to shift their arse out of their office chair will be grand if ppl stop buying those cars. No harm too if that happens, you know things have gone badly wrong somewhere along the line when people are driving a perfectly good car to the scrap cause the release bearing packed up

RandomViewer

anewme wrote: »

Dont remember blue ones of them.

Clearly a job lot from somewhere!

I remember mint green punto's and yellow cinqucentos.

Great times. Country was on the up.

Yeah mint green, maybe colour blindness was a HP requirment

colm_mcm

RandomViewer wrote: »

They brought the Renault 5 which hadn't been sold here in years to get in under 7 K , they were nearly all light blue for some reason

That was the 5 Campus, my uncle bought one. Light blue actually!

Leonard Hofstadter

Wasn't the 5 Campus brought in because Renault never made the Twingo in right hand drive until the second generation car in 2009?

saabsaab

Nice little car the renault 5. I knew someone who crashed in it, walked away with little damage done. Hard to find here anymore.

Seth Brundle

Growing up, a neighbour of mine owned a Renault 5 GT Turbo. Brilliant car!

colm_mcm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Wasn't the 5 Campus brought in because Renault never made the Twingo in right hand drive until the second generation car in 2009?

A bit like the Mk2 Clio (98 model) Campus they kept selling til 2012, it was trying to keep toe in the water of the budget market and satisfy their customers at that end of the market while trying to push the brand upmarket with the new model. They have Dacia for that here now.

ofcork

colm_mcm wrote: »

Surely we’ve met our emissions targets now because there’s feck all flights?

Heard somewhere 1 transatlantic flight uses enough fuel to keep an average car running for a year!!

Seth Brundle

colm_mcm wrote: »

...while trying to push the brand upmarket with the new model.

Renault being upmarket? The French are a gas bunch!

colm_mcm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Renault being upmarket? The French are a gas bunch!

It’s all relative.

FFVII

saabsaab wrote: »

In the not too distant future a person who wants to use a car will pay the car company a range of fees for car transport.


Cars will be self driving and will arrive at your door from a central depot pool called up by you from your mobile as an when you need it.

You won't unless you are rich, own it but there will be a band of fees say for high use high priority, moderate use and infrequent use.
The fee will cover insurance, covered by the company, any taxes and fuel (electric?).
Private person driven cars will become far less common and insurance will be extremely expensive to run.

Stop believing everything you read

colm_mcm

ofcork wrote: »

Heard somewhere 1 transatlantic flight uses enough fuel to keep an average car running for a year!!

Think your average commercial transatlantic flight goes through at least 60,000 litre.

Average car prob do 15km/l, so enough fuel to do 900,000km*










*YMMV

Cuir_Cosc_Orm

Yes

saabsaab

FFVII wrote: »

Stop believing everything you read

I'll start now!

wonski

colm_mcm wrote: »

Think your average commercial transatlantic flight goes through at least 60,000 litre.

Average car prob do 15km/l, so enough fuel to do 900,000km*










*YMMV

That plane however carries hundreds of passengers. So passenger per mile co2 output is more fair representation.

colm_mcm

wonski wrote: »

That plane however carries hundreds of passengers. So passenger per mile co2 output is more fair representation.

That wasn’t the question though.

ofcork wrote: »

Heard somewhere 1 transatlantic flight uses enough fuel to keep an average car running for a year!!

Again, beermat figures, but that’s about 2700km per person.


And of course when you put everyone together, they’re doing about 80mpg each on the plane.

carsfan2

Article in today’s Irish times about the Chinese car market coming back and that sales have been deferred not lost. Some people are actually buying more cars to avoid having family members using public transport.
Maybe the same thing will happen here especially if manufacturers offer incentives?

Charles Babbage

Change in European car sales vs last year. Largely business as usual in Sweden, of course.

road_high

It's funny the exact same thought re a scrappage scheme came into my head. The early one around 1995/96 boosted demand no end coming out of a severe recession. Anything to stimulate demand and get things up and running again.

road_high

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Given the finite money available for funding schemes to assist businesses, funding one where you encourage people to spend a large amount of money where most of it leaves the country won't be high on the list IMO!

Not entirely true. We have a large components and tech sector that feeds into the automotive sector. Factory near me produces a lot of the panels for European makes. Had been booming in recent years, they employ hundreds. I can't imagine it's much fun for those staff right now.
We may not build cars but we are very involved in the car industry in every way.

road_high

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Renault being upmarket? The French are a gas bunch!

Yes they are. Similar path to VW. Dacia are moving more into the middle ground. It makes sense. Local dealer has had a nice refurb, looks classy. Latest Clio and Captur have moved forward a lot on interior fit and finish.

Peugoet are already well on their upmarket push which appears to be paying dividends. People want a quality car.

road_high

colm_mcm wrote: »

That was the 5 Campus, my uncle bought one. Light blue actually!

Think Renault were making them cheaper in Slovenia at the time. Rather than than scrapping good lines and presses

Seth Brundle

road_high wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Given the finite money available for funding schemes to assist businesses, funding one where you encourage people to spend a large amount of money where most of it leaves the country won't be high on the list IMO!

Not entirely true. We have a large components and tech sector that feeds into the automotive sector. Factory near me produces a lot of the panels for European makes. Had been booming in recent years, they employ hundreds. I can't imagine it's much fun for those staff right now.
We may not build cars but we are very involved in the car industry in every way.

Which bit of what I posted is not entirely true?

colm_mcm

road_high wrote: »

Think Renault were making them cheaper in Slovenia at the time. Rather than than scrapping good lines and presses

You might find this post interesting


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113219214&postcount=59

RandomViewer

road_high wrote: »

Yes they are. Similar path to VW. Dacia are moving more into the middle ground. It makes sense. Local dealer has had a nice refurb, looks classy. Latest Clio and Captur have moved forward a lot on interior fit and finish.

Peugoet are already well on their upmarket push which appears to be paying dividends. People want a quality car.

Does a Capture still have drum brakes on the back?

colm_mcm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Does a Capture still have drum brakes on the back?

Yes they do, weird looking ones with fins.


Rear discs are pointless on FWD cars and are there for aesthetics mainly, VW still using them too FWIW.

kirving

road_high wrote: »

We may not build cars but we are very involved in the car industry in every way.

Plenty of cutting edge automotive technology is being developed and more than you think is manufactured here, stuff you'd never believe came out of small town Ireland. Some of the tech developed here really is incredible. But to say we're very involved in the car industry as a whole is a strong exaggeration imo.

I've been to automotive factories abroad, and they're on another scale entirely to what we have here.

Personally, a Europe wide stimulus package would benefit me greatly, as I'm currently on heavily reduced working time for a Tier 1 supplier.

An Ireland only stimulus, certainly boots the economy in the short term, and Europe more generally, but at the end of the day it's borrowed money exiting our economy, and very little is returned to manufacturing companies here.