Sweden avoiding lockdown

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Wrong. Wearing masks is the best preventative measure - much more effective than washing hands. The tune has changed, you seem to have missed it.

I don't go on holiday to relax.

I doubt if you go on holiday to risk your health and wellbeing either.


I could list you reasons why you are wrong about masks and hand washing, but whats the point.
Do you really believe that people will choose to holiday in a country where there are daily reports of over 1,000 new cases and would feel anyway safe and enjoy their holiday wearing a mask at all times when they have much better choices elsewhere ?

CalamariFritti

Stupid question just to confirm that I don't have my number screwed up please.

So Sweden had no lockdown and has had 5,000 COVID19 deaths over a population of 10m. 50 in 100,000, Thats 0.05% right? Of which 90% were over 80 with serious health issues.

Does that make me a cynical bastard if I'm wondering should we really have locked own the entire globe over that? Looking at the numbers like that it seems like a totally mad overreaction, no? I know its terrible and every one is one too many but way more people die due to hunger, war, cancer whatnot. Those numbers certainly don't suggest this is this new super killer virus we all have to hide behind the couch from.

charlie14

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Stupid question just to confirm that I don't have my number screwed up please.

So Sweden had no lockdown and has had 5,000 COVID19 deaths over a population of 10m. 50 in 100,000, Thats 0.05% right? Of which 90% were over 80 with serious health issues.

Does that make me a cynical bastard if I'm wondering should we really have locked own the entire globe over that? Looking at the numbers like that it seems like a totally mad overreaction, no? I know its terrible and every one is one too many but way more people die due to hunger, war, cancer whatnot. Those numbers certainly don't suggest this is this new super killer virus we all have to hide behind the couch from.

There are a few places probably would call you that I imagine.
New York city for one who with a population of 8 million attribute 22,441 deaths and 56,624 hospitalised to Covid-19.
Italy`s Lombardy region for another, where similar to New York, not only were their hospitals overrun but their morgues could not accommodate the numbers.

CalamariFritti

charlie14 wrote: »

There are a few places probably would call you that I imagine.
New York city for one who with a population of 8 million attribute 22,441 deaths and 56,624 hospitalised to Covid-19.
Italy`s Lombardy region for another, where similar to New York, not only were their hospitals overrun but their morgues could not accommodate the numbers.

Well I am not wondering should we have just let it go and whoever dies dies. I am merely wondering was this massive lockdown not a total overreaction and all that fear that still goes on everywhere?

charlie14

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Well I am not wondering should we have just let it go and whoever dies dies. I am merely wondering was this massive lockdown not a total overreaction and all that fear that still goes on everywhere?

What other ways are there of dealing with it ?
Sweden look as if, (even with their figures compared to their neighbours), they have benefited as much from good luck as good guidance so far.
Italy made a bit of a mess early on of lockdown, but I don`t believe without it both they and New York would not have had much higher cases and deaths.

CalamariFritti

charlie14 wrote: »

What other ways are there of dealing with it ?

Thats my point. Sweden didnt lock down and have 0.05%. So thats how you could deal with it, no?

All I'm saying is when you go cynically by those numbers it just doesn't sound like this game-changing society-overturning super virus anymore over which we all go into metal overdrive.

charlie14

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Thats my point. Sweden didnt lock down and have 0.05%. So thats how you could deal with it, no?

All I'm saying is when you go cynically by those numbers it just doesn't sound like this game-changing society-overturning super virus anymore over which we all go into metal overdrive.

If you are prepared to sacrifices lives you could, but where do you draw the line with other medical conditions.
For example, the infant mortality rate in Ireland 2014 was 0.3%. Should we have deny any medical intervention on the basis of whoever dies dies then ?


O.05% does not seem much of anything looked on mathematically, but in real lives lost when you compare Sweden to its three neighbours who used lockdown, on a population basis Sweden`s deaths from Covid-19 exceeds theirs by 4,550.
But if you really want to deal in percentages, deaths in Sweden this year are 49,586 up to the 17th June.
Sweden`s Covid-19 death until that date would equate to 10% of all deaths.

bb1234567

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Well I am not wondering should we have just let it go and whoever dies dies. I am merely wondering was this massive lockdown not a total overreaction and all that fear that still goes on everywhere?

The lockdown was probably not necessary to stop the virus, at least for the length of time it was implemented definitely not. But the concern is valid, in Brazil where it is being let run out of control almost 20,000 people under 60 years of age have died from the virus in the last 3 months. Based on excess mortality in Brazilian cities recently this figure is also a considerable underestimate

Similarly, Mexico city for example has officially reported around 5000 deaths and 2000 of these deaths were aged between 40-59, and almost 500 more were under 40. Also only 50% of the deaths had underlying health issues, vs 95% of covid deaths in Europe.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanielparishflannery/2020/06/24/important-facts-about-the-spread-of-coronavirus-in-mexico-city/#667e80746c1c

So certainly the worries of world governments were not misplaced, thousands of young healthy people in the developing world are dying from covid . That's not normal or unconcerning . But the way they dealt with it , through lockdown, now in hindsight appears to have not been totally necessary.

In Europe, we have seen almost no deaths of young and healthy people. This may be because white people are less at risk of severe disease, or because many EUropean countries have had large nursing home outbreaks and this has skewed the average age of fatality way upward.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

I doubt if you go on holiday to risk your health and wellbeing either.


I could list you reasons why you are wrong about masks and hand washing, but whats the point.
Do you really believe that people will choose to holiday in a country where there are daily reports of over 1,000 new cases and would feel anyway safe and enjoy their holiday wearing a mask at all times when they have much better choices elsewhere ?

Yes, there is no point in you listing your reasons, as you would be wrong. The CDC now states transmission is via inhalation and not from surfaces.

Coronavirus - COVID-19 ‘does not spread easily’ on most surfaces according to CDC
By: Debbie Lord, Cox Media Group National Content Desk
Updated: May 21, 2020 - 5:34 PM

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has issued new guidance about the transmission of COVID-19, saying that the virus “does not spread easily” off surfaces as it was first believed.

The new CDC guidelines address the spread of the novel coronavirus, which the agency had said was easily spread between people when someone touched a hard surface that had the virus on it.
Content Continues Below

Researchers now say the virus is primarily spread when a person who has COVID-19 coughs, sneezes or even just talks near someone else, causing droplets to land in the other person’s mouth or nose.

https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/coronavirus-cdc-now-says-covid-19-does-not-spread-easily-most-surfaces/A7STRRZBDNEZZDIQDPLEKBA6HA/

Here's a meta-analysis of available research which concludes:

A total of 21 studies met our inclusion criteria. Meta-analyses suggest that mask use provided a significant protective effect

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302301

bb1234567 wrote: »

The lockdown was probably not necessary to stop the virus, at least for the length of time it was implemented definitely not. But the concern is valid, in Brazil where it is being let run out of control almost 20,000 people under 60 years of age have died from the virus in the last 3 months. Based on excess mortality in Brazilian cities recently this figure is also a considerable underestimate

Similarly, Mexico city for example has officially reported around 5000 deaths and 2000 of these deaths were aged between 40-59
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanielparishflannery/2020/06/24/important-facts-about-the-spread-of-coronavirus-in-mexico-city/#667e80746c1c

So certainly the worries of world governments were not misplaced, but the way they dealt with it , through lockdown, now in hindsight appears to have not been totally necessary.

In Europe, we have seen many fewer deaths of younger people. This may be because white people are less at risk of severe disease, or because many EUropean countries have had large nursing home outbreaks and this has skewed the average age of fatality way upward.

The age of death statistics from China were very similar to what has been experienced in Europe, so it's unlikely it's a European anomaly. In South Korea, only around 7% of fatalities were less than 50. 50% were 80+.

I think future studies will find that widespread wearing of masks was just as effective, if not more so, than lockdowns.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Yes, there is no point in you listing your reasons, as you would be wrong. The CDC now states transmission is via inhalation and not from surfaces.


https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/coronavirus-cdc-now-says-covid-19-does-not-spread-easily-most-surfaces/A7STRRZBDNEZZDIQDPLEKBA6HA/

Here's a meta-analysis of available research which concludes:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302301

There is no point because you, will believe what you want to believe.


It says in the report you posted that Covid-19 is not spread easily from hard surfaces, it does not say that cannot be spread from hard surfaces nor does it say it is not spread by touching infected soft surfaces such as masks.

"Researchers now say that the virus is primarily spread when a person who has Covid-19 coughs, sneezes or even just talks near someone else, causing droplets to land in the other persons mouth or nose".

Now, which is the most effective use for a mask.

A) Someone who has Covid-19 wearing one and not being able to spray the virus on your hands, mask or clothing where you could inadvertently transfer them to your mouth or nose.
You wearing one where someone with Covid-19 not wearing one can spray the virus all over you.

joeysoap

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Thats my point. Sweden didnt lock down and have 0.05%. So thats how you could deal with it, no?

All I'm saying is when you go cynically by those numbers it just doesn't sound like this game-changing society-overturning super virus anymore over which we all go into metal overdrive.

Is that you Donald?

dubrov

joeysoap wrote: »

Is that you Donald?

Information added to thread = Zero

biko

Swedes during a current pandemic

https://twitter.com/Coronapandemina/status/1276580600288247808

cnocbui

biko wrote: »

Swedes during a current pandemic

https://twitter.com/Coronapandemina/status/1276580600288247808

All look fit and healthy to me ;-)

Kermit.de.frog

cnocbui wrote: »

All look fit and healthy to me ;-)

It's like the meat being fed to the shark in Jaws

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

All look fit and healthy to me ;-)

One of the quotes on the video. "the Corona express". I thought summed it up well.

cnocbui

charlie14 wrote: »

One of the quotes on the video. "the Corona express". I thought summed it up well.

Every last one of them could be infected and none of them would likely end up in hospital, let alone die.

charlie14

cnocbui wrote: »

Every last one of them could be infected and none of them would likely end up in hospital, let alone die.

.....or none except one is infected and any number of them could end up in hospital or die, while others could go on to infect other people who could end up in hospital or die.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

.....or none except one is infected and any number of them could end up in hospital or die, while others could go on to infect other people who could end up in hospital or die.

You keep on predicting death and destruction here I see?

Charles, remember 0.006% of worlds population died with covid in 6 months of 2020. You need to learn perspective. Relative population sizes. Basically, reality. But yes, before you say, it is very sad when someone dies with or without covid.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You keep on predicting death and destruction here I see?

Charles, remember 0.006% of worlds population died with covid in 6 months of 2020. You need to learn perspective. Relative population sizes. Basically, reality. But yes, before you say, it is very sad when someone dies with or without covid.

No need to do predictions, or going down rabbit holes with you on your world percentages (especially in a thread about Sweden) when I have already shown you that deaths from Covid-19 based on 2019 deaths in Sweden, for a three month period in 2020 Covid-19 deaths account for 27%

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

No need to do predictions, or going down rabbit holes with you on your world percentages (especially in a thread about Sweden) when I have already shown you that deaths from Covid-19 based on 2019 deaths in Sweden, for a three month period in 2020 Covid-19 deaths account for 27%

You see, that in bold, is why I dont entertain your posts as much.

Your posts keep suggesting that people were walking down the street, got covid and died.

If you want to debate, do it properly, died FROM covid or died WITH covid? Because I can assure you, people who died WITH covid had cancer, heart disease, lung disease and the list goes on (and frequently had more than 1), and, as you can appreciate, covid was NOT the main cause of death. I can assure you, that just as in Ireland, 70%+ deaths come from nursing homes. Do you know why people go to nursing homes?

gmisk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's like the meat being fed to the shark in Jaws

Exactly the real hero of that film was the mayor who wanted to keep the beaches open and the shark fed!

Blut2

biko wrote: »

Swedes during a current pandemic

https://twitter.com/Coronapandemina/status/1276580600288247808

Irish people during a current pandemic, on Thursday just gone:


https://twitter.com/Inch_/status/1276248787682504704


That was a rave that lasted hours, that hundreds of people were at, in the very center of Dublin in Stephen's Green its also worth noting.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You see, that in bold, is why I dont entertain your posts as much.

Your posts keep suggesting that people were walking down the street, got covid and died.

If you want to debate, do it properly, died FROM covid or died WITH covid? Because I can assure you, people who died WITH covid had cancer, heart disease, lung disease and the list goes on (and frequently had more than 1), and, as you can appreciate, covid was NOT the main cause of death. I can assure you, that just as in Ireland, 70%+ deaths come from nursing homes. Do you know why people go to nursing homes?

You really are becoming a bit of a joke as a poster.
You have been on here championing the strategy of the Swedish authorities, yet when it comes to actual facts and figures from the same authorities you want to ignore them and resort to waffle attempting to distract.

It`s not rocket science.
5280 have died in Sweden in a 3 month period after being confirmed as having tested positive for Covid-19 and Sweden posting those 5280 as having died due to Covid-19
2019 the average total deaths for Sweden for a 3 month period were 22,192.
5820 Covid-19 deaths is 27% of 22,192.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

You really are becoming a bit of a joke as a poster.
You have been on here championing the strategy of the Swedish authorities, yet when it comes to actual facts and figures from the same authorities you want to ignore them and resort to waffle attempting to distract.

It`s not rocket science.
5280 have died in Sweden in a 3 month period after being confirmed as having tested positive for Covid-19 and Sweden posting those 5280 as having died due to Covid-19
2019 the average total deaths for Sweden for a 3 month period were 22,192.
5820 Covid-19 deaths is 27% of 22,192.

God help me. Listen, space codet, do you think people die because off covid or they die with covid? You really think 5280 died because of covid and not because they had heart disease, no immune system and were over 65, 75, 85 years of age? I need you to think and to give YOUR answer.

PS you are the joke poster.... doubting Swedish minister for finance gdp predictions. Get a life Charlie, Sweden is not Belarus or China. Their finance minister doesnt predict an economic scenario that fits their covid strategy... you are really desperate there or just paranoid, in both cases I hope you come to your senses.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

God help me. Listen, space codet, do you think people die because off covid or they die with covid? You really think 5280 died because of covid and not because they had heart disease, no immune system and were over 65, 75, 85 years of age? I need you to think and to give YOUR answer.

PS you are the joke poster.... doubting Swedish minister for finance gdp predictions. Get a life Charlie, Sweden is not Belarus or China. Their finance minister doesnt predict an economic scenario that fits their covid strategy... you are really desperate there or just paranoid, in both cases I hope you come to your senses.

Do you actually read a post and even attempt to process what it says before replying ?


The same Swedish health agency you were such a champion of has listed 5280 who died in Sweden in the past 3 months as having died due to Covid-19.
Even the Swedish newspaper The Local Se has done so.
Yet somehow you know better


I did not doubt the Swedish finance ministers figures. I did in one post mention that he was a minister in a government that backed the Swedish strategy, but I also agreed that his prediction was in line with his own Central Bank`s best case scenario. Not in line with their worst case should the situation in Sweden remain the same though.



On another thread I also gave you I.M.F. predictions for GDP that shows Ireland and Sweden`s as the same for 2020. Plus I.M.F. predictions for unemployment for Ireland 2020 and 2021.
Also GDP predictions from Statista that are again the same for both 2020, but show Ireland predicted to out-perform Sweden in 2021.


Perhaps going forward you might consider at least attempt to address posts and what they actual say in a reasonable manner, rather than in your now increasingly snarky manner.

CalamariFritti

I said this a page back.

0.05% have died in a country that had no lockdown. Our rate is 0.04% with months of everything closed, stay at home, economic suicide and the place seemingly developing into a total madhouse with micro management regulations.

I find it hard to see where they are the crazy madmen and we are so sensible and doing the only right thing. You can bend all the little scare stories whichever way you want but when its all said and done the numbers don't add up.

biko

CalamariFritti wrote: »

the numbers don't add up.

Why are you comparing Sweden and Ireland?
Compare Sweden and it's closest neighbour Norway.

Norway, pop 5.3 million, 249 dead.

JimmyVik

Blut2 wrote: »

Irish people during a current pandemic, on Thursday just gone:


https://twitter.com/Inch_/status/1276248787682504704


That was a rave that lasted hours, that hundreds of people were at, in the very center of Dublin in Stephen's Green its also worth noting.

Is that definitely in stephens green? Pretty positive I saw this posted in a uk forum ages ago about a rave in the uk.

charlie14

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I said this a page back.

0.05% have died in a country that had no lockdown. Our rate is 0.04% with months of everything closed, stay at home, economic suicide and the place seemingly developing into a total madhouse with micro management regulations.

I find it hard to see where they are the crazy madmen and we are so sensible and doing the only right thing. You can bend all the little scare stories whichever way you want but when its all said and done the numbers don't add up.

Funnily enough I would look at people posting percentage figures on death in relation to a countries overall population as those attempting to bend the numbers to distract from the percentage of those who have died during a period due to Covid-9.



The deaths from Covid-10 per 100,000 of population are Sweden 51.9, Ireland 35.7.

As you appear to favour percentage figures in relation to overall population rather than the percentage of overall deaths due to Covid-19, that population percentage shows that Sweden with no lockdown has to date 42% more deaths than Ireland.

Unfortunately for Sweden that 42% is increasing daily.