Sweden avoiding lockdown

biko

JimmyVik wrote: »

Is that definitely in stephens green? Pretty positive I saw this posted in a uk forum ages ago about a rave in the uk.

There were fairly recent raves in Tooting and Clapham.
Footage probably from one of those.

Blut2

JimmyVik wrote: »

Is that definitely in stephens green? Pretty positive I saw this posted in a uk forum ages ago about a rave in the uk.

Its definitely from Stephen's Green, and definitely from last week:

https://extra.ie/2020/06/26/news/irish-news/hundreds-rave-st-stephens-green

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-party-lockdown-rave-music-18491011

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/shocking-scenes-massive-crowds-gather-22255986

etc.

The Gardai have given up any sort of enforcement of lockdown in Ireland.

seamus

Blut2 wrote: »

The Gardai have given up any sort of enforcement of lockdown in Ireland.

That's probably because those powers lapsed 3 weeks ago.

Gardai can break up gatherings and move people in the interests of public safety and and such, but they have no specific powers in relation to public health any more.

If a crowd decide to gather in the park, there's nothing they can do. It's now a social issue; it's up to the public to ensure they are distancing and encouraging others to do the same.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Do you actually read a post and even attempt to process what it says before replying ?


The same Swedish health agency you were such a champion of has listed 5280 who died in Sweden in the past 3 months as having died due to Covid-19.
Even the Swedish newspaper The Local Se has done so.
Yet somehow you know better


I did not doubt the Swedish finance ministers figures. I did in one post mention that he was a minister in a government that backed the Swedish strategy, but I also agreed that his prediction was in line with his own Central Bank`s best case scenario. Not in line with their worst case should the situation in Sweden remain the same though.



On another thread I also gave you I.M.F. predictions for GDP that shows Ireland and Sweden`s as the same for 2020. Plus I.M.F. predictions for unemployment for Ireland 2020 and 2021.
Also GDP predictions from Statista that are again the same for both 2020, but show Ireland predicted to out-perform Sweden in 2021.


Perhaps going forward you might consider at least attempt to address posts and what they actual say in a reasonable manner, rather than in your now increasingly snarky manner.

Can you please provide an article where Swedish health agency says 5280 deaths are from covid as main cause of death? You ll note from my earlier posts I have an issue with you keeping saying "died from covid".

Yes, on another thread you posted predictions from Statista showing Irelands GDP predicted fall of 7% in 2020? That is 4% less than our own minister for finance prediction.... Charlie this is crazy. Statista? Do Statista know something that Paschal doesnt?

Not to mention, in same prediction Paschal thought unemployment would peak at 22%. It actually peaked at 28% (not favourably, hope you agree with this), so you can, definitely assume that 11% GDP fall for Ireland is understated. No matter what "statista" tells you.

Ginger n Lemon

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I said this a page back.

0.05% have died in a country that had no lockdown. Our rate is 0.04% with months of everything closed, stay at home, economic suicide and the place seemingly developing into a total madhouse with micro management regulations.

I find it hard to see where they are the crazy madmen and we are so sensible and doing the only right thing. You can bend all the little scare stories whichever way you want but when its all said and done the numbers don't add up.

Unfortunately people dont like %s. Like 0.006% of worlds population has died with covid in 6 months of 2020. You wouldnt really be in a mad rush to Lidl to buy some masks if you hear this would you? Especially when you know the median age and amount of underlying conditions people had when having covid on their death cert. Even RTE stopped reporting median age of people who died with covid in Ireland... :rolleyes:

JimmyVik

Blut2 wrote: »

Its definitely from Stephen's Green, and definitely from last week:

https://extra.ie/2020/06/26/news/irish-news/hundreds-rave-st-stephens-green

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-party-lockdown-rave-music-18491011

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/shocking-scenes-massive-crowds-gather-22255986

etc.

The Gardai have given up any sort of enforcement of lockdown in Ireland.

The other pictures seem to be stephens green, but im sure that video was doing the rounds over a month ago from the uk.

CalamariFritti

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Unfortunately people dont like %s. Like 0.006% of worlds population has died with covid in 6 months of 2020. You wouldnt really be in a mad rush to Lidl to buy some masks if you hear this would you? Especially when you know the median age and amount of underlying conditions people had when having covid on their death cert. Even RTE stopped reporting median age of people who died with covid in Ireland... :rolleyes:

I think we're heading for a full on mass psychosis. The damage of which to our society will dwarf the actual COVID threat and will go on for years. If some of these threads are anything to go by some people will never come back from COVID land.

charlie14

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I think we're heading for a full on mass psychosis. The damage of which to our society will dwarf the actual COVID threat and will go on for years. If some of these threads are anything to go by some people will never come back from COVID land.

Other than a few biblical tales we do not know of anyone who has come back from the land of the dead. I doubt they will from your COVID land either.

Loafing Oaf

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Can you please provide an article where Swedish health agency says 5280 deaths are from covid as main cause of death?

AFAIK no country provides this statistic, as it's impossible to establish with any accuracy. The figure they all give is for those who 'died with covid'. The only way to get any sort of handle on how many of these deaths are actually due to covid is to compare death tolls for a given period this year with the same period in previous years.

biko

biko wrote: »

Why are you comparing Sweden and Ireland?
Compare Sweden and it's closest neighbour Norway.

Norway, pop 5.3 million, 249 dead.

I highlighted the point 2 months ago that comparing two countries that were geographically, demographically and culturally distant is risible when you can instead compare countries to close neighbours which, on almost every metric, they share far more in common with.


Of course, all the anti-lockdown people pretended that this hasn't been the standard process in research for decades - simply because it suited their narrative.


If Ireland was doing great and Sweden & Norway terribly - the same faces would be ignoring Ireland and saying "You can't compare Sweden to Ireland, they're too different - you should compare Sweden to Norway instead".


They've been disingenuous bordering on dishonest from the beginning and no matter how bad it gets for Sweden, they just change their argument.


It'd be amusing if it weren't a sign that Ireland is becoming infected with the American-style 'Opinion trumps facts'.

cnocbui

Germany has 3 times the death rate per million that Poland has.
The Netherlands has 3 times that of Germany.
Belgium has 7 times that of Germany.
Sweden has 5 times that of Denmark.

Gee, I guess all those neighbouring states have a lot of questions to answer because none of them are close to being the same.

dubrov

How are northern Ireland doing versus our numbers given the looser lockdown up there?

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

Germany has 3 times the death rate per million that Poland has.
The Netherlands has 3 times that of Germany.
Belgium has 7 times that of Germany.
Sweden has 5 times that of Denmark.

Gee, I guess all those neighbouring states have a lot of questions to answer because none of them are close to being the same.

My point went right over your head I see, which is quite unsurprising. The fact that you don't understand why similar populations are grouped when doing research explains a huge amount about you, whether you intended that or not.

When you're trying to compare differences between two different populations, you try to find populations which had the most in common before the changes/actions that you're trying to isolate the effects of. This is basic stuff, yet it's clearly beyond you.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Can you please provide an article where Swedish health agency says 5280 deaths are from covid as main cause of death? You ll note from my earlier posts I have an issue with you keeping saying "died from covid".

Two different issues in that post, so I`ll reply to them separately as you would appear,at least for the second part understanding what I said or just conveniently ignoring.

Are you really that misinformed or are you just pretending you are ?


Did it by any chance ever cross your mind to check out a source that is quoted in many threads here in relation to Covid-19 daily new cases and deaths, Worldometers ?
If not then you really should.

In relation to Sweden pick any day you wish and alongside the statistics for that day you will see source. Click on that and it will take you to a site called Folkhalsomyndigheten where you will find loads of information on Covid-19 deaths.
What is Folkhalsomyndigheten ?
It`s Swedish. Translates as The Public Health Agency of Sweden.


To save myself or anyone else the time and trouble of dealing with another of your ramblings over main cause of death.
Do you somehow believe that the The Public Health Agency of Sweden, (or indeed any other such agency), would, in the case of a person who had high blood pressure who drown after being swept out to sea would list the cause of death as high blood pressure ?
If you do, then it is patently absurd.

charlie14

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

AFAIK no country provides this statistic, as it's impossible to establish with any accuracy. The figure they all give is for those who 'died with covid'. The only way to get any sort of handle on how many of these deaths are actually due to covid is to compare death tolls for a given period this year with the same period in previous years.

I actually did that. Surprise surprise, completely ignored.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

I actually did that. Surprise surprise, completely ignored.

Oh Charles, how can i ever ignore you? You so aggressive in your posts, its actually funny.

We will revisit Swedish deaths for 2020 at 31 December 2020. When and if that amount is similar to 2019, you will say that "yeah but people died quicker in April, are you okay with that?" and I will tell you - oh Charlie you are really smart and can defend your point of view to the very end. :pac:

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

Two different issues in that post, so I`ll reply to them separately as you would appear,at least for the second part understanding what I said or just conveniently ignoring.

Are you really that misinformed or are you just pretending you are ?


Did it by any chance ever cross your mind to check out a source that is quoted in many threads here in relation to Covid-19 daily new cases and deaths, Worldometers ?
If not then you really should.

In relation to Sweden pick any day you wish and alongside the statistics for that day you will see source. Click on that and it will take you to a site called Folkhalsomyndigheten where you will find loads of information on Covid-19 deaths.
What is Folkhalsomyndigheten ?
It`s Swedish. Translates as The Public Health Agency of Sweden.


To save myself or anyone else the time and trouble of dealing with another of your ramblings over main cause of death.
Do you somehow believe that the The Public Health Agency of Sweden, (or indeed any other such agency), would, in the case of a person who had high blood pressure who drown after being swept out to sea would list the cause of death as high blood pressure ?
If you do, then it is patently absurd.

Is there any need to being rude Charles @ that in bold? Is this a health forum? Where qualified health experts debate causes of deaths? no.

And that 2nd part in bold - idk about Sweden but I am sorry to disappoint you, there are a lot of countries who have overstated their covid deaths. Not just Belgium as you yourself have already admitted. Per below -

Washington health officials: Gunshot victims counted as COVID-19 deaths

https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-health-officials-gunshot-victims-counted-as-covid-19-deaths/

Charlie this is not looking good for covid death count credibility sake is it?

According to Belgium’s Federal Public Service for Health, just 46 per cent of the country’s total official deaths were in hospitals where coronavirus cases were confirmed. But 53 per cent of the Belgian tally, or 4,100 people, were from care homes, and of these, 84 per cent are suspected but unconfirmed coronavirus deaths.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-belgium-death-toll-lockdown-trump-who-uk-spain-italy-a9494186.html

I am happy to converse with you btw I hope feeling is mutual

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

I highlighted the point 2 months ago that comparing two countries that were geographically, demographically and culturally distant is risible when you can instead compare countries to close neighbours which, on almost every metric, they share far more in common with.


Of course, all the anti-lockdown people pretended that this hasn't been the standard process in research for decades - simply because it suited their narrative.


If Ireland was doing great and Sweden & Norway terribly - the same faces would be ignoring Ireland and saying "You can't compare Sweden to Ireland, they're too different - you should compare Sweden to Norway instead".


They've been disingenuous bordering on dishonest from the beginning and no matter how bad it gets for Sweden, they just change their argument.


It'd be amusing if it weren't a sign that Ireland is becoming infected with the American-style 'Opinion trumps facts'.

Deleted User wrote: »

My point went right over your head I see, which is quite unsurprising. The fact that you don't understand why similar populations are grouped when doing research explains a huge amount about you, whether you intended that or not.

When you're trying to compare differences between two different populations, you try to find populations which had the most in common before the changes/actions that you're trying to isolate the effects of. This is basic stuff, yet it's clearly beyond you.

Can I interest you in a map? A personality, perhaps?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Oh Charles, how can i ever ignore you? You so aggressive in your posts, its actually funny.

We will revisit Swedish deaths for 2020 at 31 December 2020. When and if that amount is similar to 2019, you will say that "yeah but people died quicker in April, are you okay with that?" and I will tell you - oh Charlie you are really smart and can defend your point of view to the very end. :pac:

LOL. In all my time here I have never come across anyone who has resorted to posting so much rambling rubbish when confronted with inconvenient facts.


Far as I recall your theory on time revealing all as to Swedish immunity fell very flat on it`s face in a short space of time, yet here you are back with the same tactic on Covid-19 deaths. You really are an incredible chancer.



I have already shown you the increased deaths in Sweden for the last three months.
Sheer coincidence that those three months cover their Covid-19 deaths or have you any other possible plausible reason ?

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Is there any need to being rude Charles @ that in bold? Is this a health forum? Where qualified health experts debate causes of deaths? no.

And that 2nd part in bold - idk about Sweden but I am sorry to disappoint you, there are a lot of countries who have overstated their covid deaths. Not just Belgium as you yourself have already admitted. Per below -

Washington health officials: Gunshot victims counted as COVID-19 deaths

https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-health-officials-gunshot-victims-counted-as-covid-19-deaths/

Charlie this is not looking good for covid death count credibility sake is it?

According to Belgium’s Federal Public Service for Health, just 46 per cent of the country’s total official deaths were in hospitals where coronavirus cases were confirmed. But 53 per cent of the Belgian tally, or 4,100 people, were from care homes, and of these, 84 per cent are suspected but unconfirmed coronavirus deaths.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-belgium-death-toll-lockdown-trump-who-uk-spain-italy-a9494186.html

I am happy to converse with you btw I hope feeling is mutual

Lets cut through all the rambling rubbish shall we ?
Has the Public Health Agency of Sweden to date accredited 5280 deaths as being due to Covid-19 or not.

gmisk

dubrov wrote: »

How are northern Ireland doing versus our numbers given the looser lockdown up there?

I don't think the lockdown is much different to down here really? A few small differences maybe. I think the DUP didn't want to be seen to be following the ROI strategy but they have for the most part from what I can see.
There numbers are low but I doubt they are doing huge volumes of testing.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

LOL. In all my time here I have never come across anyone who has resorted to posting so much rambling rubbish when confronted with inconvenient facts.


Far as I recall your theory on time revealing all as to Swedish immunity fell very flat on it`s face in a short space of time, yet here you are back with the same tactic on Covid-19 deaths. You really are an incredible chancer.



I have already shown you the increased deaths in Sweden for the last three months.
Sheer coincidence that those three months cover their Covid-19 deaths or have you any other possible plausible reason ?

Aggressive as always.

Charlie, at the end of the day, you are a big WHO fan and just like below article will outline, you will do anything to preach Swedish population going extinct, while Tegnell, calmly, disregards your "conclusions".

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/26/883931594/swedish-disease-expert-says-who-covid-19-warning-is-a-total-mistake?t=1593438005134

But Tegnell objected to Kluge's warning, saying that WHO officials were misinterpreting Sweden's epidemiological data. In Tegnell's view, the rise in new cases is due to a recent bump in testing. He added that Sweden is seeing a relatively low number of admissions to intensive care units, along with a decline in COVID-19 deaths.

JimmyVik

I think I must have wandered onto facebook here
About 3 people taking on the whole of boards. And even when those 3 are proved wrong again and again they come back with even more outlandish and redrawn claims as to why Sweden are superstars.
They just wont give up and a victory for them at this stage will be everyone just having enough trying to talk sense to them and just quitting.
Never argue with a fool .. as the saying goes.

tobefrank321

charlie14 wrote: »

Those that are vulnerable to this virus are the big money tickets for countries as regards tourism. I cannot see many of them planning visits to Sweden anytime soon.

FAIK Sweden was doing well from cruises before this pandemic. Another area where those that are vulnerable would be in high numbers.



Tourist, even those that are not vulnerable, I imagine will be looking at countries where numbers are low and are serious about attempting to control the spread before they decide on a destination.
1988 a fear of typhoid wiped out Salou Spain`s tourism and it took it years to recover.
People go on holidays to relax. Not to take risks with their health.

Visits to Ireland are down 99%. Its similar in most countries in Northern Europe. Sure we can invite tourists in, but the big spenders from countries like the UK and US will bring coronavirus with them.

So tourism wise we are no better than Sweden. No-one wants to go to Sweden. But do we really want people to come here and start a second wave? Our first wave came when there was minimal cases around the world.

tobefrank321

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think I must have wandered onto facebook here
About 3 people taking on the whole of boards. And even when those 3 are proved wrong again and again they come back with even more outlandish and redrawn claims as to why Sweden are superstars.
They just wont give up and a victory for them at this stage will be everyone just having enough trying to talk sense to them and just quitting.
Never argue with a fool .. as the saying goes.

There are people making fanciful claims on both sides of the argument tbf.

It will be interesting to see how southern Europe fares after welcoming millions of tourists many from covid hotspots.

You can't shut a country forever as Southern European countries have found out. You need income as well.

cnocbui

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think I must have wandered onto facebook here
About 3 people taking on the whole of boards. And even when those 3 are proved wrong again and again they come back with even more outlandish and redrawn claims as to why Sweden are superstars.
They just wont give up and a victory for them at this stage will be everyone just having enough trying to talk sense to them and just quitting.
Never argue with a fool .. as the saying goes.

Quality over quantity.

Breezin

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think I must have wandered onto facebook here
About 3 people taking on the whole of boards. And even when those 3 are proved wrong again and again they come back with even more outlandish and redrawn claims as to why Sweden are superstars.
They just wont give up and a victory for them at this stage will be everyone just having enough trying to talk sense to them and just quitting.
Never argue with a fool .. as the saying goes.

I've been off this thread for a little bit. Judging by this post, its quality seems to have dipped even lower than the breathless reporting of daily stats, ignoring long term trends, and selective filtering of any qualifying evidence.

If it's name-calling you want -- apart from distortion, since I don't recall Sweden being characterised as superstars -- why do you need anything other than Facebook? Just go there and don't actually argue your case, because you aren't doing it in that post.

charlie14

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Aggressive as always.

Charlie, at the end of the day, you are a big WHO fan and just like below article will outline, you will do anything to preach Swedish population going extinct, while Tegnell, calmly, disregards your "conclusions".

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/26/883931594/swedish-disease-expert-says-who-covid-19-warning-is-a-total-mistake?t=1593438005134

But Tegnell objected to Kluge's warning, saying that WHO officials were misinterpreting Sweden's epidemiological data. In Tegnell's view, the rise in new cases is due to a recent bump in testing. He added that Sweden is seeing a relatively low number of admissions to intensive care units, along with a decline in COVID-19 deaths.

You still appear to believe posting ramblings will work as a means of deflection to avoid answering questions.
.
I don`t see why you would consider being asked for straight forward replies to questions as aggressive.
Two very simple questions really.
1. Has The Public Health Agency of Sweden to date accredited 5280 deaths as being due to Covid-19 or not ?
2. Have you any plausible explanation for Sweden`s increase in deaths over the last 3 months being due to anything other than Covid-19 ?

charlie14

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Visits to Ireland are down 99%. Its similar in most countries in Northern Europe. Sure we can invite tourists in, but the big spenders from countries like the UK and US will bring coronavirus with them.

So tourism wise we are no better than Sweden. No-one wants to go to Sweden. But do we really want people to come here and start a second wave? Our first wave came when there was minimal cases around the world.

All true, and we should be very careful as to who we do invite.
Tourists are going to be very careful as to which countries they visit. Those with cases down to low numbers will benefit much better than those with high numbers.
In that regard we are a much more attractive destination than Sweden, and may benefit from tourist who were considering the U.K. as well.

Ginger n Lemon

charlie14 wrote: »

You still appear to believe posting ramblings will work as a means of deflection to avoid answering questions.
.
I don`t see why you would consider being asked for straight forward replies to questions as aggressive.
Two very simple questions really.
1. Has The Public Health Agency of Sweden to date accredited 5280 deaths as being due to Covid-19 or not ?
2. Have you any plausible explanation for Sweden`s increase in deaths over the last 3 months being due to anything other than Covid-19 ?

Can you define due to covid? When something happens due to, you would expect that due to is the main cause of something occurring.

I dont believe 5280 died in Sweden this year from covid. I believe most died because they had underlying conditions, had no immune system unfortunately and were very old. They died with covid. Majority in nursing homes. Just like in Ireland.

I dont want to entertain the last 3 months statistics, thats as short term as it gets. We need 1 year of data to see if covid has caused any excess mortality. Looking at 3 months of data is a bit like if deaths are lower in last 3 months of this year than monthly average for 2019 - will you be able to say why? Same logic.